Oh yes! Get WAT involved, please!

He is an expert at hypocracy. He WROTE the book on it!

Let see what he has to say about your WW expecting you to prove your faithfullness and sincerety while she is blatently involved in her own affair and lieing through her teeth to OM. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

As I said before, we talked about signing together on a house, then she got cold feet and it turned into ME buying the house. That's starting to fall through, doesn't look like it can happen just yet. So, I sent her an email telling her this, and she sent this email:


I can't help but to think how wonderful all this [buying a home] could be had none of this $hit happened. What a mighty shame. I suppose we should just move on VnusMars. I can't imagine how I will feel a year from now or even two years from now. As you can tell I am having an exceptionally depressing day.

When I look at you lately, I don't see anything. My heart is so shut down I can't see straight. You don't want to be with me. I will NEVER open up to anyone the way I did with you ever again. And to open up to you sound impossible. I can't look at you the same way anymore. All I see is someone I don't know....Someone who made a concerted effort to erode the deepest love I had for anyone. To try again would be similar to throwing myself in front of a moving car. I just can't bring myself to believe that you "see the light" now. I feel like just another girl you are trying to conquer. I do care about you VnusMars but I don't love you like I once did...and I don't think I can get that back. I have forgiven you... but forgetting the enormous amount of damage that has been done is insurmountable. All those years and memories tainted with all the women in the back ground.

I just want to be settled...either with someone or not. I am living a damn dream and I need to wake the *uck up. A house??? I am living like nothing happened between us...and that is crazy....the fact that I can delude myself to this day scares me. There is something seriously wrong with me. My friends think I am crazy for spending time with you and while they are not me...they can see it on paper and it doesn't look good.

I am the one in that has suffered the most damage from your way of life.
You didn't love me enough to make the decisions over and over to NOT hurt me. I can't trust you to do it in the future. Your world has been shaken and while your efforts to become better are admirable...they are motivated by someone you can't have...that you DID have but threw away... I don't think I am crazy here.. but seriously, I am not the same person I use to be VnusMars... I am a hardened, cynical hate the world kind of girl now... I don't believe in marriage, love or anything related. I believe I can love someone again but not 100 percent... it's sad, but that is all I can give.

Our damage is too much...



I'm wondering what to do. I'm going to talk to her in an hour or so when she drops by, any advice on what to say?
It almost sounds like she's hoping I'll do something, and frankly, a part of me is wondering what the next step should be. I don't really want to say "let's just keep things as they are and let time take care of it" because many of you would see that as enabling her A with OM while she treats me like a casual friend.

I'm scared to death of going Plan B on her, but wondering what y'all might recommend as a response to this email.

bump - please if someone can give me some objective advice...

Fog..Fog..Fog..Fog..Fog..Fog..Fog..Fog..Fog..Fog

Attractively packaged articulate fogspeak.

She is still in her affair. Nothing that comes out of her mouth can be trusted as anything but fog.

If she had been out of it..for a significant period of time..and not only hours ago flirting with you and talking picket fences..maybe I'd extend credit so far as to say that TODAY she is feeling hopeless. As it is..she is having a hard time dealing in reality. I have suspected from your previous posts that feeling a bit suprahuman..just a little above it all is a mutual issue for you, as a couple, individually.


She isn't 100% wrong..just as soon as you say that you are focussed on fixing YOU..lickety split it's back to the old cycle. What has SHE said/done/thought. There IS an element of conquest...I can not deny it is extremely transparent.

I wouldn't take a risk on you at this point either..separation is probably her best friend. Not an affair though..so until THAT ends [and stop with the rationalizations already..she is telling him the reverse of what she is telling you or he would have kicked her to the curb by now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ] the two of you really are at an impasse.

My advice..given your extraordinarily poor marital history..would be to plan A at the longer end of the spectrum. 6 months..isn't it about? Too long and it actually works against you.

You really aren't doing well in plan A thus far..looks like you are trying to put the cart before the horse at every opportunity. Stop doing this.

If you are able to manage a decent plan A..then go dark and allow her to make her choices.

Even if she manages to clear her head..she may very legitimitely choose to walk away from a serial adulterer..even one who is remorsefull and seeking to change his ways. Sometimes the damage and potential risk is just too great. You will have to accept that these things are beyond your control.

Noodle

Thanks Noodle...

I've been doing an OK Plan A in the sense that I've been loving, demonstrated my sincerity, been transparent, tried not to LB, done what I can to support her...

But I have failed at negotiating the end of her A. I have felt like I don't have the right to try in light of my A's, and in light of everything she's said about "don't worry about OM, he's not an obstacle."

How do I negotiate the end of her A when I have caused such destruction to our marriage?

I will treat her with Plan A when I see her in the next 30 minutes. A part of me already wanted to do that. Honestly, I think part of her depression today is that the house deal is falling through, and I know secretly she was looking forward to the prospect that we may have OUR house someday.

Vnus,

This is what I would do given the recent email from her. I would mostly listen to her, not try to get any info from her, but just listen.

Then I would very softly ask her if she thought it would be best if you both went your own ways for awhile. Tell her that this affair of hers is hurting you terribly and you need to distant yourself from it for awhile. Plus you don't like the idea of being apart of any affair, even if it is not your own.

For you to work on your issues, and for her to get her head straight.

Then I would say I hope with all my heart that someday we end up back together, and that our dream of owning our own home can be brought to fruition, but for now you both need to heal a bit.

Then ask her to give you a call sometime after the holidays if she wants.

Show her that this is not a conquest for you, but a deep desire to change your way of life and that you hope someday she trusts you, and herself enough to share it with you.

This is not a Plan B Vnus, it is a request and an offer for a little much needed space for you both.

Weaver, she kinda did the work for me.

Here's what she said:
"I think we should take a break from each other. I have been trying these last few months to see if I can get back some love for you, spending lots of time with you to see if I can look at you as anything more than 'the bad guy.' I can't, it hasn't worked. I need to get myself back, I suffer every day and don't feel complete, and I need to figure my own stuff out. I think the wounds stay open because I'm with you rather than them healing because I'm with you like I wanted to happen. I'm not saying I will never want to be with you again, but I just don't think it's going to happen right now. Move on without me, find someone else, get on with your life."

Which all makes good sense, as painful as it is.

On the subject of OM, she said:
* I don't think he is that committed to me anyway
* I would like to see if it goes somewhere but I don't think it will
* There's no way we can get anywhere in a long-distance relationship anyway
* Our R could end any day

She adamantly refused to believe she was in an OM-induced fog, and she was the one that used the word "fog," not me.

Whether she is or isn't...is beside the point.

My goal with my future readiness for Plan B, that of letting her do her thing away from me so she can decide if she wants me back, has come sooner than expected.

She did set boundaries, albeit fairly open ones - "no touching, hugging, affection"
"no spending hours and hours together"
and that was it. she said I can still call her, we still have to see each other because we have lots of logistical ties, and she said "we can occasionally go to lunch or happy hour too."

This has happened before, and I pointed it out to her - we spend a lot of time together, she gets freaked and backs off for a few days then we're right back into the cycle.

This time, though, I plan to honor her wishes to a stronger degree than I have before.
No more clingyness. No more daily emails, phone calls, text messages. I thought they were working to show I care for her but all they were doing was make me look needy and dependent and focusing on HER rather than on ME and my healing.
In fact, I'm not going to contact her at all unless she contacts me first. And I honestly really mean that this time.

We have a built-in hiatus coming up with the holidays anyway (she'll be gone for 9 days), so it should start off fairly easy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'm fully confident that in a short time she will be willing to start over again. And if she's not...well, maybe in a short time I won't be willing either. We shall see.

Thanks for the advice, you actually must have read her mind.

"I know her spending the holidays with OM seems like a huge jab, but it really isn't THAT bad, we've never been big on the holidays anyway. I'm more upset about 9 days apart than I am about the fact that it's Christmas."

Read this again.

"I know her spending the holidays with OM seems like a huge jab, but it really isn't THAT bad,"

Heck no. After all, Scott Peterson MURDERED his W and son. This is NOTHING like that. It really is nothing like that. But it's not like healing the sick and feeding the poor, either. Huge jab? Maybe not. Big jab, probably. S2pid, selfish, thoughtless, cruel? Certainly.

"we've never been big on the holidays anyway."

How big are you on your W sleeping with an OM for 9 days and nights?

"I'm more upset about 9 days apart than I am about the fact that it's Christmas."

What about the fact that it's the OM?

VM, you're not making any sense.

-ol' 2long

Where's the letter?

L.

But I have failed at negotiating the end of her A. I have felt like I don't have the right to try in light of my A's, and in light of everything she's said about "don't worry about OM, he's not an obstacle."

Lose this type of thinking Vnus.

Her affair is classic in every way. Her justification is just easier than most. If it wasn't your past infidelities it would have been your weight, or your hobbies, or your friends or the fact that you wear blue underwear when you cook.

Until you accept that you have made mistakes in your marriage (just like every other person on this board) and that you have taken steps to change them (and you are) and that you have paid for those mistakes (which you are) and are ready to be treated decently, with respect and with love - nothing will change.

It's time for you to start demanding respect for the new honest man that you are. It's time to leave the past and all the self blame and hatred that comes with it.

And email Orchid. She will get you there.

<small>[ December 16, 2004, 05:03 AM: Message edited by: weaver ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Orchid:
<strong> Where's the letter?

L. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry, I figured in light of last night's discussion, I would edit it. I managed to say a few of the things from the letter when I was talking to her, namely:

</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe OM is influencing your decision to start over with me</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you are fence-sitting</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How can you lie to OM, what is he thinking about all of this?</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
However, they were quickly glossed over and I didn't stand my ground enough. I regret that now.

So allow me to edit the letter and I'll send it over, or maybe I'll have the courage to post it here.

I really wish I had been more adamant about "OM is keeping you from deciding and I can't take it anymore."
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<small>[ December 16, 2004, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

Wow,

You guys just ran around in a big circle. Are ya tired?

Noodle

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by noodle:
<strong> Wow,

You guys just ran around in a big circle. Are ya tired?

Noodle </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For all others' benefit - Noodle is referring to how after BS/WW left the house, we ended up IM'ing each other and falling back into the same pattern of
BS: I'm scared and don't think we'll work out
ME: Give it time and watch me heal, maybe we can
BS: Maybe we can, you're right

etc.etc.etc.

I edited all of that out of my post above because I was going to save it for a separate post.

Yep, we ran around in a big ol' circle, really.

I hope I find the strength to honor her wishes even if she doesn't want me to - and detach from her more, and move on and forget about reconciliation for now...

I do regret not STATING my case more clearly last night, though, so now I'm left with just quietly enacting my plan...

I suppose I could still say "ya know I was thinking...after our talk the other night...you're right, I can't take OM anymore and he's influencing your decisions, so it IS best if we take a break from each other." And walk away.

Her version of NC is nowhere near as "complete" as what is probably necessary for her to try and get all EN from OM (which sounds like it would fail, not just because it usually does but because of some things she said about him last night).

Do I have the courage to go through with HER wishes? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

That's the real question, isn't it?

Noodle

VM:

"I suppose I could still say "ya know I was thinking...after our talk the other night...you're right, I can't take OM anymore and he's influencing your decisions, so it IS best if we take a break from each other." And walk away."

It amazes me just how often we BSs here come up with "plans" like this. They're really just our own script-writing and video playbacks of "I'll show them" kinds of thoughts. I'm betting that they don't usually work, assuming they ever are put in2 motion at all.

Re-read that idea of yours again and think about:

♣ the desperate need for DRAMA it represents - while such "scenes" may APPEAR 2 make for good TV drama bites, they really fail even there (except in soaps, I suppose, but I've NEVER unders2d why they're popular).

♣ You're being judgmental. You're telling her that the OM is influencing her decisions. Well, the truth is that SHE is influenceing her decisions. He isn't doing the influencing, SHE's making a (perhaps subconscious) choice 2 BE influenced, rather than taking full responsibility for everything she says, feels, and does.

♣ You can't affect HIS influence on HER with this kind of drama, and not just because he has none really, but because you can only control yourself.

♣ So, if you say any of the stuff above, make sure it's entirely about how YOU feel, and that there's no judging in any of it of anybody. Simply stated, tell her you love her, tell her you believe in her, but tell her you have newly-established boundaries that her current choices are outside. Modify one of the stock plan B letters from SAA (or elsewhere on this forum) 2 your particulars, post it here, then give it 2 her BEFORE she leaves.

-ol' 2long

OK - I decided to post it here.
This is my edited 1st draft "Plan B" letter, written in light of last night's discussion and some of y'alls suggestions.

It doesn't name who our "go-between" would be, although I'm thinking it would have to be her Mom since she's living with her.

Comments please:


My dearest WifeOfVnusMars…

I actually started a letter like this not too long ago, before we had our big talk on Wednesday Dec. 15. In that letter, I was basically going to say some of the things you said that night, albeit from my perspective rather than yours.
I tried to say some of the things that night that I had said in my first draft of this letter, but I chickened out…again.

The hardest thing for me to swallow and accept is the idea of not being in contact with you, not spending time with you, not being able to be in your daily life. There have been times we have discussed doing so as a way for you to heal and figure out what you want from life, but we both seem to be too “codependent” to actually pull it off. We have always been “soulmates,” that’s for sure.
But I have had more than a few people say “what are you doing, step out of that vicious cycle for your own sake!” Well, that’s what I think we both need to do.

I understand your reasons for feeling like you need to pull away from me. You need to be able to look at me and not see a monster, you need to figure out where you want to go, you need to clear your head and get with reality.
I believe that, and agree with that.

However, I also feel like I need to pull away.
I don’t need this so I can figure out if I want you back or love you, so I can see if maybe I want to move on to someone else – none of those is an issue. I love you, I want to start over with you, period. And, I am highly confident that once you make the decision to start over, we will be very successful. It won’t be easy, but it will be worth it in the long run.

The reason I need to pull away is twofold:

I can no longer tolerate the pain of you and OM. I don’t really care what that relationship is or is not, how strong or weak it is, whether it’s just about sex or something deeper. It’s there, and it kills me, and thinking of you with him is as destructive to me and my healing as it is when you envision me with other women.

But even more importantly than that…
I do not believe it when you say that your feelings for OM are not having an impact on your decision on whether or not you want to work things out.
You said to me that night that you had, over the last month or so “tried to see if you could love me again, pushed to see if the spark was still there” and you said you failed.
Of course you failed, WifeOfVnusMars, because you are involved with someone else. I don’t see how you could make a decision like that when you have someone else in your life. Why not try to see if the spark is there without the presence of someone else clouding your judgment?

I know you’re scared. Starting over with me is taking a plunge. I think OM is a way of talking yourself out of taking that plunge, and the fear and vulnerability that comes with it. I do believe that you recognize the logic of at least trying to start over again. It’s like I said “I’d rather die knowing I tried and failed with few regrets, then to die wondering what could have been and having more regrets.”
But obviously, you’re too afraid to take that step right now. Most of your fear is based on your mistrust of me, and that’s perfectly acceptable. But OM is an additional wall that you have put up between us, and is preventing either of us from knowing for sure how we really feel. If you were to knock down that wall, we could be much more honest with ourselves and with each other. And if things didn’t work out, at least we’d know it was true and honest and we could move on with our lives confident that we did everything we could.

I didn’t plan to say these things until a few more months had passed and we could see where we were at – if things were still as they are now, I was going to do it to protect us both from any more pain. You beat me to the punch with our talk that Wednesday night.

Well, this letter is my agreement that you were right. We need to separate completely so you can see where your head is, and so I can get relief from the pain of OM and focus on myself.

But, my version of this means NO contact. I can’t even be in occasional contact with you, WifeOfVnusMars, because even the slightest contact continues the cycle. Besides, I think you need to experience a life with no VnusMars whatsoever so you can find out if that’s how you want to live.

I will continue my work in this time. I am becoming and will remain a faithful, upstanding, and honest individual. I need to do that, and want to do that, not just for you, but for myself. I hope someday you will want to walk alongside me on that journey; I can’t do it alone.

If you decide that having no contact with me is not what you want from life, the first thing you have to do is dump OM.
This is not to punish you or pressure you, this is merely to protect myself. If you want to have a relationship with me, any relationship at all, that relationship is going to be founded on the premise that we will start to work on being together again, and obviously that means no other people can be in the picture. I look very much forward to hearing from you if and when you make that decision.


<small>[ December 16, 2004, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

VM,

Read your letter and want you to know that I am glad you posted it here. You will get more help that way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Now onto the letter, here are my 2 cents and hopefully others will follow.

1. Keep in mind that the plan B letter is to let the WS know your boundaries in a civil manner. No whining needed. Firm and loving.
Not mushy.

2. Given the above, the letter should stick to facts and instructions with small tibits of looking forward to a time when you would welcome back your W not the WS.

3. Based on item 2, I personally feel it is critical to identify when you are speaking to her as you W vs the WS. Oh yea.....for me this was critical. Not sure about other MBers. My plan B letter was an e-mail to my WS. It was shorter than yours.

There are several MB guys who posted good Plan B letters. Let's see if they can come aboard and help out along with those who 'coached' them here from GQII.

Keep the letter as short as possible. Don't reminise too much. Remember the purpose. Outline the steps for communication. Mine were limited to: $$, mail and child visitation. When he called about other things, I ended the call. Reminded him of the acceptable subject matters.

You know what? In our case, that WS tried to call everyday at that point. Several times a day. Couldn't get through his thick head that I need NOT to speak to him. That I was doing this for MY NEEDS not his and that our chlid was STILL getting properly cared for as best as possible (due to no father figure living at home).

So when I stipulated that plan B was for MY NEEDS, he thought he could have a tantrum because he felt HIS NEEDS were more important and hence the continual bothering with trivial issues.

When I saw the difference and the reason, it made plan B much easier to enforce. It did get easier over time.

Give that letter another edit, ok?

take care,
L.

Not ver good.

Use the example in Surviving An Affair.

Leave out the first paragraph. Not needed.

Don’t start out with there being no contact.

And, I am highly confident that once you make the decision to start over, we will be very successful.
Yes, but that assumes she will make the decision to start over. Plan B is about ending contact until her affair is over.

I do not believe it when you say that your feelings for OM are not having an impact on your decision on whether or not you want to work things out.
You said to me that night that you had, over the last month or so “tried to see if you could love me again, pushed to see if the spark was still there” and you said you failed.
Of course you failed, WifeOfVnusMars, because you are involved with someone else. I don’t see how you could make a decision like that when you have someone else in your life. Why not try to see if the spark is there without the presence of someone else clouding your judgment?
Here, you are flat out calling her a liar. Not very loving, is it?

Do it like this.

1 – I love you
2 - I apologize for doing things wrong in the past (give an example?)
3 - The pain of your affair hurts me.
4 – I cannot have contact until you end your affair. Not to hurt you but to preserve my love.
5 – I know we can rebuild and I want us to remain married
6 - I love you

And way too wordy, way too much info and...

WAY too many "I"s. me, me, me, me

When my ex writes me letters I usually can't get through the first two paragraphs because they are always all about him. Does that make sense?

And in regard to your fears of being able to honor her request for space, and after Plan B goes into effect -

Vnus when you want to contact her come here and post it. I did that last night when I was tempted to call ex. After posting here there was no way I was about to call him after the responses I rec'd.

We all go through the same thing with no contact, it is difficult but "we get through it with a little help from our friends" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Tonight was it. Absolutely. Final straw, no more.

Here's what happened:

BS/WW and I talked on Wednesday night, she got very upset and emotional and said "we need to take a break from each other, I tried to find the spark between us but it didn't happen" and then spent the rest of that night and all the next day going back on her request. She came with me to IC on Thursday, first time she had met him, they talked alot about how she is feeling, which is pretty scared and hopeless obviously.
OM didn't come up at all.

Today, she and I talked about her coming by this weekend to finish up some things, maybe catch a movie - yes, not the Plan B mentioned above at all but a continuation of the cycle we have been in.

Tonight about 10:00 she calls me, upset, crying.
The reason she was upset?
"I think OM is going to break up with me, he hasn't replied to my messages and said to me just now in a TM 'I've done some very bad things.'"

I said "I'm finding it hard to be sympathetic since I want him gone, but I'm sorry you are hurting, I will call you later, keep me posted."

Then I get a TM an hour later that says "I'm OK now, talk to you tomorrow."

WTF??????

So...I called her, no answer. I called her Mom's cell, no answer. I called the hotel room they've been living in for the last 2 weeks while Mom's house is finished, no answer.
I get suspicious and call the front desk of the hotel....

OM has checked in and has a room there.

So - either she was lying to me all week about being free this weekend, or more likely...

He decided to surprise her.
I think that's it because a) he did this back in August, surprised her at the last minute by flying out here, and b) why would she have been upset that he was going to dump her if she knew he was coming? I think his wierd communication today was a setup for his surprise.
My fears will be validated tomorrow when and if she calls.

So - she has spent the past 3 months saying "don't worry about him, he's not an obstacle" - and I've TRIED to believe her even though it didn't feel right...

But on Wednesday she said two things about him;
1. I would like to see where it goes, and
2. He doesn't seem to be as in to me as I thought

So - #2 has obviously been voided, any man that will spend that much money and time and effort is DEFINITELY in it for more than sex, and...
#1 shows that she was hoping #2 was false.

So....all the times she said "maybe we can work it out" and "complaint complaint complaint against OM" and "dont' worry, it's not as deep as you think" and "what can happen when he's 2000 miles away"....

ALL OF IT WAS COMPLETE CRAP.

Or, it WASN'T crap but she's just very seriously fogged up.

At this moment, she is FAR more into OM than she led me to believe. She is now no better or worse a lying cheater than I was.
No wonder her IC said "don't talk to Vnus about OM," because he KNEW I'd flip out and bail.

I just am MORTIFIED at how one moment she's turning to ME, her husband, for solace over possibly losing her OM, and the next blowing me off because it turns out the OM cares that much after all.

Yeah, no WONDER I didn't ever believe all the things she said, they were LIES.
No WONDER she didn't find the spark, she didn't even give it a honest chance by losing OM first.
In fact, she's pretty much nulled and voided all the positive sing she's given me.

So...

THIS IS IT. I AM DONE.
PLAN B WILL NOW GO INTO EFFECT.

And I am dead serious about that, because not only do I need to save myself, but if there IS any chance of us working it out, she needs to realize OM isn't all he's cracked up to be, and that's going to take a few months or more at this rate.

Or, if we're NOT going to work out, she needs to start her new life with OM unencumbered by the memories of me.

I'm pulling out all the stops - no contact, no money, separating the cell phones and she can pay her own, and she needs to get financing for the car she drives that is under mine and my company's name, taking her name off my checking account so she can't access my funds, and THANK GOD we didn't sign on that house.
I'm wondering if I should file the DV papers to make sure she knows how serious I am.

Because...
She said to IC "I feel like just another woman Vnus feels the need to conquer."
Well guess what, chickie, my pursuing days were over awhile back, but if you have to use that analogy, you're dead wrong, I wanted you back because I love you, but you seem to think 2 wrongs make a right.

It's sad it came to this, since I love her more than anything. But at this point I feel like I'm doing more to get beyond the situation than she is, and that's to her detriment, not mine.

So I suppose I really DO need to edit that Plan B letter and deliver it around Monday, after OM is gone but before she can suck me into the same cycle AGAIN.

<small>[ December 18, 2004, 06:04 AM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>