H says he has to talk to me the way he does otherwise I do not listen. I told him to try and see what happens, he says I just need to except it that this is the way that he is and to deal with it. He will not change.

that is so bullsh!t
excuse my french, that iritates the crap out of me. you are a human being not a possesion, slave, or pet for that matter.
no one deserves to be treated like that, you need to stand up for yourself or he is gonna force you to build a wall around your heart that no amount of love or counciling will repair,
i dont understand ws's, its always the bs fault. someday reality strikes and lets just hope that when he realizes that you arent at your attorneys office with no love left. i understand you are hard in plan a but this is just plain wrong...... just a male opinion

KMEJ,

One more thing to think about: your sons are on a dangerous path.

As it stands now, they are either going to grow up to hate their fahter or to emulate him.

Do you want them to treate THEIR wives the way that he treats you? That's where this is heading.

<small>[ December 10, 2004, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: AndrewA ]</small>

Dalson..this is not plan A..it is supposed recovery.

sounds like he still wants to blame her. that isnt recovery. still kinda foggy, dont you think

Yes, my husband said those exact same things to me as well. That behavior is so destructive to one's self-esteem. He topped it off by having a two year affair with a girl 24 years younger (not to mention other affairs which I had no idea about).

The fact is that, although the MB program is great, it doesn't work if one's partner has some kind of psychological or behavior problem. That has to be addressed first, and he has to want to do that himself. You can't fix him by "loving him". I had to detach myself from his problems first, and learn to stop enabling his behavior. At 46, he's only now taking baby steps to becoming healther. If I had handled this differently years ago, I could have saved myself and my children so much pain, but I kept hitting my head against that brick wall and getting hurt over and over, while nothing changed.

By the way, he can be wonderfully charming, warm and fun to be with. That's how he kept me "hooked". We have not filed for divorce yet, but he is not healthy enough for me to be able to consider working on our marriage at this point.

Frankly, he had to leave me for the OW, nearly wreck his relationship with his children, and get dumped by her (she was mad he wouldn't file for divorce), and become one very sorry, unhappy human being, before he had even the slightest clue that maybe he had caused his own unhappiness.

But, being away from him was the best thing for me. It was unbelievably wonderful not to have to listen to him telling me what was wrong with me.
Eventually, I began to see that I was just fine, and it was very peaceful.

In a sense, your husband is telling you the truth when he says "that's just how I am and you should deal with it". He's telling you he doesn't think he has a problem. Believe me I heard this kind of thing for years. This is the reality of what emotional and verbal abuse is. I hope I haven't offended you by saying that, but having lived it, I know what it's like. You can learn new, different methods for coping, that set boundaries for your protection. That's why I recommended that book.

OK, So H says that you'll "just have to deal with it."

But he didn't say HOW you have to deal with it.

I'd deal with it this way: leave.

i wish there was a way to snap my fingers, clear all the fog, and make all of the pain go away for all the people that post and lurk here. it is so cruel what an a causes.

I agree with noodles post. It's an exact description of what happened to me. Years of nothing changing, because I didn't make any move to change it.

KMEJ, are you ever afraid of your husband?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A couple of questions for you:

1.) Does your H have a good relationship with his father?

2.) Was he mad about losing that other job? Does he blame you for losing it?

3.) Are you satisfied with the amount of money he earns? Is HE satisfied?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">1. My H does not talk with his father unless it is holidays or he needs something. I have a better realtionship with his parents.

2.Yes H was Very very angry about losing his job. He was planning on leaving once he found a new one (so he could continue his A I believe). However him getting fired made it very hard for him to find a new one. Yes he blames me, still does. Like I made him do it. However I did work there too, and some "friends" from there were trying to "support" me through this, when what they were really doing is pumping me for information to go tell H's boss. When H is really mad or trying to shut me up he throws that back in my face. I do not feel responsible for his being fired. I did not force him to have an affair, nor did I force him to continue it after being told by his boss he needed to end it or lose his job. He made his choices and now he wants to blame me for it.

3. I do not care how much money H makes. I told him I would put him through school if that is what he wants to do. I have no problem working. I am willing to do what it takes to make him a happier person. However that needs to come from within him, I can only help aide it. No H is not happy with the amount of money he is currently making as it is about $20,000 less then his old job.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have a habit of making statements about his frank unwillingness to change..and then setting the olympic record for backpeddling when asked "ok..so what are you going to DO about it." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I knew how to answer this I would. I stand up to him, however I feel ran over in the process. H is a very stubborn man, who feels his way is the only way, and does not back down. Usually later he feels bad but the damage was already done.


I got home from work today to H playing a game on his phone, and obviously crabby. H starts going off about my brother being over again, and the lack of respect I have for him. I got upset and started to argue back, the conversation goes back and forth until I had had it, said a not so loving thing, took the laundry upstairs to fold it (this is after I unloaded the dishwasher, cleaned up the dishes for the day, cleaned the kitchen and flipped laundry- all in the first 25 minutes of being home, and argueing with H). I locked myself in my room and folded the clothes and got ready for my second job. Any way after a while H comes upstairs even more pissed off, throws everything off my dresser and my chair (folded clothes on chair) and says I have no respect for what he does, and I do not acknowledge what he does. Basically trashes our room 15 minutes prior to his mom scheduled to arrive. I got really upset and told him he needed to clean that up, so he proceeded to get a garbage bag and started throwing away all my things, I ripped it away from him and told him to leave. Basically it turned VERY ugly from there. After he grabbed me by the neck and shook me I told him I was not going to live this way and I wanted a divorce. He looked at me stunned and walked away. Came back 5 minutes later to tell me that I do not do near the stuff I think I do, and that I do not acknowledge the stuff that he does and that we need to work together not against eachother to make this work. I could not even talk to him, I tried to walk away. h grabs my arm and says he is sorry, when I did not say sorry back he got mad said what ever and changed for work. I talked to him about an hour ago, and he acted as if nothing had happened. I am nervous about when he gets home at 12:30. H said he was sorry, and he would not do it again- I told him I deserved more repect from him, he said he deserved more from me. I said we were not getting anywhere. H said he was sorry and there was no reason to talk divorce, that we would not be getting a divorce, that he was over tired and not himself <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

What a night. and it is still 12/10/2004

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KMEJ:
<strong> so he proceeded to get a garbage bag and started throwing away all my things,</strong> I ripped it away from him and told him to leave. Basically it turned VERY ugly from there. After <strong>he grabbed me by the neck and shook me </strong> I told him I was not going to live this way and I wanted a divorce. He looked at me stunned and walked away. Came back 5 minutes later to tell me that I do not do near the stuff I think I do, and that I do not acknowledge the stuff that he does and that we need to work together not against eachother to make this work. I could not even talk to him, <strong>I tried to walk away. h grabs my arm and says he is sorry, when I did not say sorry back he got mad</strong> said what ever and changed for work. I talked to him about an hour ago, and he acted as if nothing had happened. <strong>I am nervous about when he gets home </strong> at 12:30. <strong>H said he was sorry, and he would not do it again</strong> - I told him I deserved more repect from him, he said he deserved more from me. I said we were not getting anywhere. H said he was sorry and there was no reason to talk divorce, that we would not be getting a divorce, that he was over tired and not himself <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">KMEJ - I think I have only posted to you a few times, but I do follow your posts. I am really concerned about the pattern your life seems to be in.

It is impossible to see anothers life clearly, more so to get a clear picture through a chat board. However, there is a VERY CLEAR AND DISTURBING pattern that comes through in your posts.

I bolded the areas above that scare me the most for you, but really, the whole thing shows you to be in an unsafe environment.

KMEJ - You have three children. So do I. I know that as a mom you will do anything to keep your children safe. If their mother is not safe from being grabbed by the neck and shaken or grabbed by the arm, they are not either.

Your H may not physically hurt them, but no matter how much you think they do not see or do not hear.... I guarantee you, they know.

That is their example and it must be okay because the person they look to for protection and love, the person they admire most in this whole world, allows it to continue for her.

Stop. Look. Step back again. See what they see. See what your best friend would see.

And PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, do not write that you over reacted or that we read it wrong.

Grabbed me by the neck
Shook me
Grabbed my arm
and
I am nervous about when he get home

Read it KMEJ and be your children looking at their mom and tell me what you see.

You and your family are in my prayers tonight.

Thank you.

Here is the problem- I am terrified to leave and terrified to stay. I do not know which is the worse of two evils.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KMEJ:
<strong>Here is the problem- I am terrified to leave and terrified to stay. I do not know which is the worse of two evils. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why are you terrified to leave? (It's obvious why you're terrified to stay. You have good reason.) If you identify and list the reasons why leaving terrifies you, it might help you see things more clearly.

I'm so sorry for your situation and understand what it's like to live with this type of person.

<small>[ December 10, 2004, 11:26 PM: Message edited by: haywire ]</small>

stupid reasons really I guess

1. scared of him finding happiness with someone else
2. scared of uprooting my kids
3. scared of having no money or place to live
4. scared of messing up my kids because of a split life
5. scared of living with my parents
6. scared of giving up on a once great man
7. scared I am making a mountain out of a mole hill
8. scared of what H will do if I leave
9. scared of failure
10. Scared of hurting him, or his family

11. the number 1 answer from people like me... because I love him, yet can hate him at the same time.

Can you take each of those reasons and counter them? I can...I've been where you are. KMEJ, I hesitate to write this because I'm NO expert. But I understand your reasoning because I've done it myself, so what I say below is only what I'd say to myself...


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

1. scared of him finding happiness with someone else
<strong>
----- That's doubtful. But regardless of his future happiness, it's your happiness that counts. Will you find happiness with him?</strong>


2. scared of uprooting my kids<strong>

----- vs. living in the current situation? Kids adapt to change.
</strong>

3. scared of having no money or place to live
<strong>
---- child support laws are seriously enforced these days.
</strong>

4. scared of messing up my kids because of a split life
<strong>
---- vs. the current situation? Are two separate but peaceful parents better or worse?

Chances are your kids are very aware of what's going on. My parents had a tumultuous marriage. As a 7 year old I found some innovative ways to hear the fights, mostly because I wondered how my life would be affected. I also wondered about their sanity and if someone was going to be hurt. I prayed for my parents to divorce.
</strong>
5. scared of living with my parents
<strong>---- are they not able to provide a loving home? or are you embarrassed to ask them for help?
</strong>
6. scared of giving up on a once great man
<strong>---- was he truly great or was that your perception of him?
</strong>
7. scared I am making a mountain out of a mole hill<strong>
---- see your posts. Read them as an outsider would. Don't minimize the mountain.
</strong>
8. scared of what H will do if I leave
<strong>---- vs. what he will do if you stay? DO take precautions if you think they're warranted -- i.e., restraining order, legal advice, women's hotline.
</strong>
9. scared of failure<strong>
---- taking care of yourself and your children is triumph not failure.
</strong>
10. Scared of hurting him, or his family
<strong>---- you and your children come first. Is he scared of hurting you? His family will adjust.
</strong>
11. the number 1 answer from people like me... because I love him, yet can hate him at the same time.<strong>
---- Do you love *him* or the man you wish/thought he was? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

You know, KMEJ - I posted the exact same question about lists the other week to you. You gave the exact same list......and when I was trying to work with you, you dropped it and went back into hiding. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

It seems as if you truly do not want help. You are determined to "make" your H into the person you want him to be. Even if he does not want you to.

OTOH, YOU really have not changed. Your H is right about that. YOU have not started standing up for yourself. YOU still allow yourself to be treated with disrespect. YOU still take the blame for what he does. YOU still put your children in a very bad situation. YOU still have not taken responsibility for your part in all this.

I'm sorry to be harsh, but yet again - YOU are choosing to be a victim.

You continue to post the same "dance" between you and your H......and then when it seems like you are getting "too much" support, and he is looking like the "bad guy," then you backpeddal and fog yourself out to his reality.

So many people here have given you plans....have tried to help you to understand....tried to support you....and tried to help you get to a safe and happy place. Yet your actions show that you have not truly taken any advice to heart. And KMEJ, as a BS, you know that actions speak louder than words.

YOU are responsible for you and your children. What are YOU going to do about all this? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

KMEJ, you are in your own fog. I truly hope you find the light to clarity. But it's YOUR choice.

KMEJ,

Reading your post reminded me of when I felt like that. Scared of a lot of things but needed to realize that I was also sure and firm about more than I gave myself credit for.

Do you feel like your mind and heart are in sync? Because you won't be able to conquer those fears unless they are in sync.

Also no one can make you be in sync until your mind and heart do so. NOT even you..... I know because I kept kicking myself knowing I should have been in plan B waaay earlier. But I kept trying to do a plan A/B. AB may be a blood type but it is no plan. That one kicked me in the gut hard.

Only when I came to a turning point and my body was ready to go on strike did I over come my fears.

I know you will get there soon. It is vital for your survival.

L.

KMEJ - it is so much easier to read someone else's problems and see the right or wrong in them, than it is our own! But here is my 2 cents.

Your husband is abusive and controlling. You know it but you also love him and don't know how to break away. It is soooo hard when there are little kids involved, but your life sounds so harsh at the moment. You rush in, do the laundry, empty the dishwasher, make the beds etc etc. Often when you arrive home, your husband is playing silly phone or computer games. After doing all your chores you rush back out to another job. Your life is exhausting and, without a shadow of a doubt, you are being taken completely for granted.

Your husband's attitude towards your family is TOTALLY out of line. I remember a while ago when you posted that your sister and her boyfriend were due to babysit, he had a melt-down and now, your brother looks after the kids for one hour and he can't deal with it. Unless your family are a load of delinquints, his attitude towards them is so unfair and unkind. What have they done to him? You are entitled to have an hour to yourself to shop.

You are such a beautiful lady. I saw your picture. At the moment, I think you are lacking some courage. I believe you know what you want to do but are just scared. It is scary. I know. I have left my WH and I also have 3 kids. But no one person has the right to control your life - only you should do that. He should never use physical force against you. It is domestic violence, it is a crime, you are a victim. I think you are scared of him. Has he ever been abusive to your sons? I really hope you find the strength of mind to get away from him. Life really is so short and it really is better to be alone then to suffer in an abusive marriage (although with your looks, I doubt you'd be alone for long sweetie!). Take care, TT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You know, KMEJ - I posted the exact same question about lists the other week to you. You gave the exact same list......and when I was trying to work with you, you dropped it and went back into hiding.

I am not sure I went in to hiding, I think I just wanted to pretend it was not happening. I am sorry if you felt I did not take your list seriously. I have been doing a lot of thinking as of late.

It seems as if you truly do not want help. You are determined to "make" your H into the person you want him to be. Even if he does not want you to.

I am sorry I have given you that perception. I guess I never really thought of it as me being the one that needed help, I wanted someone to come along with a to help my husband, one I had not thought of.
OTOH, YOU really have not changed. Your H is right about that. YOU have not started standing up for yourself. YOU still allow yourself to be treated with disrespect. YOU still take the blame for what he does. YOU still put your children in a very bad situation. YOU still have not taken responsibility for your part in all this.

I'm sorry to be harsh, but yet again - YOU are choosing to be a victim.

probabaly true in some sick sort of way

You continue to post the same "dance" between you and your H......and then when it seems like you are getting "too much" support, and he is looking like the "bad guy," then you backpeddal and fog yourself out to his reality.

I am not sure I am back peddleing you all, it is my own personal fears that make me chose to do that. I keep convinceing myself that in time it will improve. Last night H convinced me that in January once he is back on days things will all be better, he will be getting more sleep, and that he is sorry. Part of me wants to believe him (my heart) while my head is screaming loud and clear.

So many people here have given you plans....have tried to help you to understand....tried to support you....and tried to help you get to a safe and happy place. Yet your actions show that you have not truly taken any advice to heart. And KMEJ, as a BS, you know that actions speak louder than words.

That is just it, everytime I am on the edge and the door is looking like a great option H kicks it into gear for a while, helps out, is affectionate, friendly. Does the basics that I expect from him, until he figures he has me back...

YOU are responsible for you and your children. What are YOU going to do about all this?

That is just it LIT- I am so wishy-washy. I rarely make major decisions for myself. As pathetic as that sounds. I can just not get a good plan that my heart and head can agree on. SO instead I continue to piss and hurt you all off because I post how I feel but never take action.. Must be frustrateing. I know this is for me. Why don't I do any action- because as fast as I backpedel, H is better and more convinceing and stupid little me bites everytime.

KMEJ, you are in your own fog. I truly hope you find the light to clarity. But it's YOUR choice.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Tummytuck- Thank you for your kind words and insight.
YOu asked about my family-
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your husband's attitude towards your family is TOTALLY out of line. I remember a while ago when you posted that your sister and her boyfriend were due to babysit, he had a melt-down and now, your brother looks after the kids for one hour and he can't deal with it. Unless your family are a load of delinquints, his attitude towards them is so unfair and unkind. What have they done to him? You are entitled to have an hour to yourself to shop. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My H use to get along with my family famously- until the affair. Then when they did not say "oh H we understand, Katie is a horrible wife and you deserve better" and they actually got mad at him (well DUH!!)and supported me and thought he was evil- except my dad who took him out to talk many times and so did my uncle to try to help him in any way that H wanted. However my dad, even after all his support to my H, H still says he does not trust <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> . H likes his family because they helped me with the kids while he was out playing (if you will <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )and told H that he should do what ever makes you happy- his brother even went on a trip with H and OW while I was back trying to make ends meet. So basically because they did not support H in his distruction of his family- they are now bad. My brothers situation is a little different, their son )who is almost 9 now) was sexually inaprropriate with our son which landed him in counseling and my nephew. h has never and will never forgive that or forget it, so H never wants the two together. A point I can understand- however it has been going on 4 years now since we found out, and nephew has been helped and they are watched when together, and they love to play.

I had H's present that I HAD to get that night while H was gone and a friend would take me in her truck (H would not leave his, because i would not tell him why I needed it- again- DUH <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ).

Hope that helps!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your husband's attitude towards your family is TOTALLY out of line. I remember a while ago when you posted that your sister and her boyfriend were due to babysit, he had a melt-down and now, your brother looks after the kids for one hour and he can't deal with it. Unless your family are a load of delinquints, his attitude towards them is so unfair and unkind. What have they done to him? You are entitled to have an hour to yourself to shop.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">tummytuck,

He behaves this way toward her family so that he can drive a wedge there. He needs to keep KMEJ alienated from people...especially the people that love her and care about her, because they might actually persuade her that what he is doing is WRONG...and to LEAVE HIM. He cannot risk that...so he makes up things and makes situations to keep these people away... to turn KMEJ against her own family...it will soon be "them or me". It's a control thing...and it sucks.

It is clear (from what she posts) that he is an abuser...and he is in total control of that entire household.

He has her running around like a maniac...2 jobs...total responsibility of the house...kids...dropping everything to play a game of "connect four" with him <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> right before he leaves to go bowling (when he could be HELPING at the house)... and now trying to figure out ways to earn more money, so that she can make him happy...so that he can sit around and play his PC games and phone games. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

He keeps her emotionally and physically drained (waking her to catch a TV show with him at midnight) so that he can keep that control. I believe that is what captors do to their prisoners in camps...keep them working to exhaustion, then once they fall asleep...waking them for interrogations and such.

He has ZERO responsibility for anything...much like a 4 year old. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

NO ONE on this board can persuade her to do what she KNOWS is right. She will leave when she is ready...or when something terrible happens to her or her children. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

KMEJ,

I am going to go out on a limb and say that I believe that you are indeed using this thread as a "pity party" of sorts. There have been NUMEROUS suggestions to help YOU...not him...but YOU...on this thread and every other one that you have started in relation to these problems (how's that for such a minimalist word) within your marriage. This "journal" of yours is NOT helping you to do the things that you need to do...it is just giving you license to put it to paper...without any action on your part.

So, it begs the question (sorry Iss) "What is YOUR payout"? You are getting something because you wouldn't stay in this relationship unless you were...so what is it?

JMHO
committed