KMEJ,

I know where yo uare coming from. It's really hard to re-invent yourself in a situation where people expect you to act a certain way.

I think you need to start out by being assertive on small issues. If someone asks you to do them a favor that your eally don't want to do or don't have the time to do...just say you can't do it. You can be direct and say you are not mad or upset or anything. Then, leave it at that. You really don't owe anyone ANY explanation.

I'm going out on a limb here, but: am I correct that you really don't like conflict? You strike me as a person who wants (needs) to be liked. You don't want to disappoint people. And...you take your H's behavior as an indication that there must be somethign wrong with YOU.

Am I right?

I get the feeling that you all think I am constantly in a self pity stage, or am always poor little me. I am sorry you get that impression. my friends and co-workers do not see me that way, as a matter of fact 95% of them just have no clue what is actually going on in my life.

If the people around you were to know, you would be closer to taking some kind of action within the marriage. Therefore, I dare to say that you do not want that...that's why you don't divulge the information.

In all honesty, I get the impression that you use
the board as a way to avoid getting help in real life.

You post...you vent...you journal...knowing that there is no accountability here.

IRL a counselor or therapist would hold you accountable for your actions or lack thereof.

This forum can actually be a bad thing at times...and I *feel* that is what is happening here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Posting...venting...and journaling your life is not "marriagebuilding". So, what kind of help are you looking for here?

Not being confrontational...simply asking.

JMHO
committed

AndrewA-
Yes everytime H and I get in a fight or H stops talking to me I instantly start thinking "what did I do this time?". At work today my boss sent me an e-mail saying she had a picture to show me. I instantly started to wonder what I did that I was going to be in trouble for. It turned out it was something good. It is rather sad that I always jump to the worse.

Committed- I do get outside help. and things do get better and then worse. I come to these boards to try to offer support to others, as I know what they are going through, and to get help for myself.

As of late I have been standing up to H more, however not in the best way I could. I have been love busting, why when I know how much it hurts? Probably because that is how H treats me, so I think that is the only way to get through to him. WRONG. I also come here to read how others handle situations simular to what I am dealing with.

I have been growing more as a person since I have been coming here. I feel stronger as a person. I get a lot from being here.

I come here to remember that I am not alone in this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KMEJ:
<strong> I think you might have something there Andrew. however now that people know how am I, how do I take time for myself with out people thinking I am either mad at them or disappointing them? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sometimes you just do it and people fall into formation behind you. I had to back out of some pretty significant commitments (on a director position for a non-profit) - I had been trying to back out for over a year and couldn't get anyone to step up and help. Finally I just said, Hey, my H wants a D and guess what? I have to find a new place to live, and that comes first. I can't honor my obligations under the circumstances so you will have to find someone else who can. (with emphasis on YOU WILL HAVE TO FIND SOMEONE ELSE.... not I WILL FIND SOMEONE ELSE, because been there done that and it hadn't worked before.)

They didn't have much choice, and oddly enough there were suddenly people who could step up after all.

Just do it. Maybe some people will be mad. There are always people who try to guilt others into doing things that aren't good for them. But I say, too bad so sad. Not your fault, not your problem - as long as you were nice about it and asserted your rights to take care of yourself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I get the feeling that you all think I am constantly in a self pity stage, or am always poor little me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">KMEJ - I actually do believe that you are not intending it to be a self pity stage. You are not asking for self pity. Having been there before, I was not asking for pity.

But what I was asking for (because I did the same thing in my group counseling that you are doing here) was support for my being a "martyr" to my H. I probably wouldn't have identified it at the time, but now that I am far enough removed, and can look back, that's what I thought of myself as - a MARTYR . I was sacrificing my happiness, my spirit, my life.......for my H <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> . But in order to continue, I had to have support from someone that I didn't deserve to be treated the way H did. Honestly, now I am disgusted by the "abuse fog" I was in. I thought I was taking the high road. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> Really, I was simply using the high road to boost my self esteem. It was so low that I felt I needed others to help me up. Not too different from using OM to lift my self esteem, huh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As of late I have been standing up to H more, however not in the best way I could. I have been love busting, why when I know how much it hurts? Probably because that is how H treats me, so I think that is the only way to get through to him. WRONG. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, KMEJ, YOU are wrong. The fact that you are standing up at all against him is at least some progress....even if it be baby steps. You are just beginning to learn how to acknowledge your own emotions. And it will take a while for you to realize you have a right to feel any way you want to. They are YOUR feelings - not anyone elses. They are not right or wrong - they are feelings.

If you LB right now, go ahead - just don't do it in front of your kids. But I would rather see you LB and stand up for yourself than just sink back to the pathetic state where you were. At least this way, you convey your feelings.

You have to see that your relationship is unequal. He gets to yell, he gets to LB, he gets to go out whenever he wants, he gets to put his clean clothes on the floor (your comment about that being petty is no more "petty" than his manipulative response), he gets to have girls pics in his phone......

HE GETS EVERYTHING - YOU get nothing. You get whatever he wants for himself. You live for that one single little tiny thing that he does for you. And you live off that. It gives you just enough to keep you hoping, and to enjoy just that one little moment.

YOU ARE IN A FOG . Trust me - if you get out,you will start to see. Separate for a while - who cares about D or not right now? And you will soon realize that H is dictating who you are. And you know what? He's only 50% responsible for that. You are fully responsible for letting him. So YOU can't get out of being blamed either..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> sorry, but it's the truth.

You will not be able to be yourself until you get out. You will not be able to figure out who you are because he is around. And he has too much influence. He controls you - he controls your emotions - he tells you how you should feel - he tells you how you should think. And after he does all that, he does one itty bitty little thing for you, and you fall back to the ground kissing his feet, praising him for the wonderful moment he gave you. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> sad, really - I know - been there doing the same thing.

You wanted to know how I left my H. After beginning like you (starting to stand up for myself on little issues and LBing all over the place), I started to realize that I didn't have to LB to get my assertiveness across. I started to pay attention to his patterns . As long as I was his slave , he was happy - and every once in a while, he would beat me emotionally. But when I stood up to him, all he would respond with was more beating. He never really considered my feelings. He might seem like he did for a minute....but just as soon as he realized he got me back to where I "belonged" he would revert back to his old patterns.

I started to think about how it related to my A. I thought about internal change. And that both WS and BS must make internal changes in order for the M to recover. I was pretty confident that I was making internal changes, but I was unsure about H. So I thought of it this way. The one thing he needed changed about me is that I would discover my personal reasons for choosing to have the A, and that I would come to terms with those so that I would not make the same choice again. And I had to be consistent with the choice not to have an A.

I needed H to research and come to terms with why he treated me the way he did before my A - why he was emotionally abusive. I needed for him to identify why, and to come to terms with that, so that he would not choose to treat me that way again. And I needed him to be consistent with his choice not to "beat me" emotionally.

As soon as I realized this, I began to see that he was continuing in his old patterns. And had I continued in mine, I would have had more A's - or at least resumed the one I was in. But I wasn't and I didn't. Things were not EQUAL . And if our R was going to be healthy, they would have to be equal .

What was the last straw? There were a few....

1) Him saying my feelings didn't matter.
2) Him saying he could trust and respect his friend (OW) more than he ever could me.
3) His failure to even acknowledge that his EA (telling OW he wanted to live with her, kiss her, go on vacation, D me and be with her, etc) hurt me. Instead, all he said was "Well, at least I didn't F her.....what I did doesn't even compare to what you did to me."

Foggy translation: "Oh, sweetie, you are right. I did have an A, and I destroyed you. I realize you will never be OK again because I have scarred you for life. I will feel forever guilty, and will serve you in any way possible to help you build your self esteem so that my past actions don't resonate in your future life, and you [i]might be able to find happiness again"[/i] aka - marriage at all costs (do we have a 'disgusted' emoticon here?)

Translation now: My actions are justified because of what you did. This is all about me. You broke it, now you must fix it. It doesn't matter how I treated you before - you should have dealt with it. I have no true responsibility, because if you hadn't had your A, then I wouldn't have had to seek support from another person. ME, ME, ME, ME, ME!

I finally told him one night after a fight that I loved him, but would not be disrespected like he had been doing. I told him I would not tolerate him trusting and respecting, and spending more time with another woman than me. And I did not do it LB'ing. I cried, but was resolved. The people over in Recovery helped me to realize that even though I was the WS, I deserved to be happy also. That I couldn't live in my guilt. I will try to look and post to you some of my threads.

I left that night. It was a very small step - I told him I was leaving for the weekend so we could think for ourselves. And I did. I stayed with a friend and her H. We got back together that Sunday, and he and I decided together that we were not ready to get back together again. So I stayed for a month b/w my friend's house and a motel. Back and forth.

One of the things that helped me during that time, was being with a couple who had a healthy relationship. They fought, sure. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> But they never degraded each other, and they understood that they were not always the cause of the other's reactions. They did not always talk about it, but they each took pride in having the other as their spouse. And they helped each other in the kitchen, doing laundry - they watched movies together - they cuddled together - they went to breakfast together.

BUT - they also spent some time apart. She crocheted and quilted. He worked with wood and in the yard. They could spend 3 or 4 hours in the same vicinity (around the house), yet be alone. And they were OK with that. Becuase there is a time in an M to be together, and there are times to be alone. It's just how it's supposed to be.

KMEJ - they were both healthy . And as a result, their R was healthy.

It took me a long time to realize what a healthy relationship should look like. But once I did, it changed me. A healthy M is not about "repayment" or "slavery". It is about RESPECT. Period. And his patterns never changed....so we are getting a D. I am sad sometimes, but on the whole, it is really nice to be able to have a personality, an opinion, a voice again. REALLY nice <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

Well, now you know my story. I hope it helps. If not, I will probably stop posting to you as well. It takes a lot out of me to read your posts because emotionally, I am not that far out from where you are. And I know now that I cannot go back to where I was.

Just FYI - last night, H texted me ... "I don't know why I'm telling you this, but I really miss talking to you." My first feeling - I miss him too. Really happy to know he still cares - maybe there is hope. Then reality hit....If he wanted to work on things, he would go to MC with me - he would treat me with respect - he would work on the M instead of wanting D.

So why did he write it? Well, based on his past patterns , either to test the waters, and see if he can still draw me in with words instead of actions or to get me to respond that I want to work on the M - then he can reply by saying "you misunderstood me - you destroyed me. You ruined me. I will never trust you. I will never respect you again. You will spread your legs for anybody." In other words, just another opportunity to "beat me" so he feels better.

KMEJ - HE may not have changed. But I have. And I , myself , am HAPPY. I am me, and proud to be here.

<small>[ December 15, 2004, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: L.I.T ]</small>

KMEJ,

Here are some links to some of my "update" posts. It was really difficult going back through them. It's also ironic, b/c H's OW is mentioned throughout - by me, before I knew she was an OW. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I hope you read all of them - it's a really long and hard read, but I hope you will be able to see the following:

1) Similarities in how we approach our M and our dedication to our H's
2) Lack of setting and establishing boundaries (at least in the beginning)
3) A change in my "right to have feelings" - at the start, you can see I lived off my H's words. Toward the end, you see I started to form my own.
4) The general progress you can make once you realize you deserve to be happy as well.

These were really tough - I wanted to save my M more than anything.......but I finally came to understand I couldn't - it takes 2, and one of us was NOT working! Hmmmmmm - don't think it was me.

You will also be able to see the trend of posters who originally tried to support and help my H as well as me -- and then in the end, they no longer could support him. They actually almost broke my pattern, b/c I could always rationalize staying with H, as long as a few people on here gave me supporton this board, I would stay. But gradually, almost everybody came to the conclusion that for us , D was better.

Good luck!

LIT Early On
A little further along - still foggy
More of the same
Further along
Hadn't posted in a while about me - fog starting to lift Getting stronger, but scared of losing M

Accepted D, but feeling down....

I truly hope this helps, KMEJ.

<small>[ December 15, 2004, 10:51 PM: Message edited by: L.I.T ]</small>

<small>[ December 25, 2004, 03:43 PM: Message edited by: Cherished ]</small>

LIT-
I am busy at work today, but plan on reading your posts this evening once the kids are a sleep. I see so much of me in what you have already written I am interested to see how much more we are alike.

My son made me feel so bad last night, it was an eye opener at how much I put my H first, and that I am always doing stuff for him to try to keep him happy, that it does not leave much for anything or anyone else. This is what went down.


Lucas put it all into perspective for me last night. I was running on the treadmill and making a list in my mind of all that I needed to do after my 2 miles were up (it was already 9:45). I was thinking that all my little angels were asleep. I got off the tred mill, made lunches, flipped the laundry, picked out clothes for school (I hope I finished- am now thinking that I forgot to lay out the shirts-opps). ANYWAY not to make this drag on, while I was folding another load of Laundry in walks Lucas, I turn around and tell him to go back to bed, his response was "but I want you to lay with me!", I tell him that I have a lot to do, and that he needs to go back to bed. What did Lucas say in return? Something so completely heart wrenching to me, and got me right to the soul. Through his tears he said "Mommy you always busy! You never lay with me, too busy for me", then he turned around and crawled into bed crying. I dropped the piece of laundry that I had in my hands, and went and crawled into bed with Lucas, and we talked, I learned so much from him and about his little ego last night (he is the 4 year old). Now it did not matter that already that night I made cookies with them, brought them to a friends house for a playdate, sat and had dinner with them, and then laid in bed and watched Freaky Friday with them, even after all of that Lucas still felt that I was too busy for him, that all I ever say is I am too busy. Well no more, if the house is not clean, oh well, My kids will only be little once and they are my family.

KMEJ,

Don't beat yourself up too bad about this. You can't be everything to everyone. I have a 4 year old too, and they are very ego-centric. Its not their fault its where they are developmentally. The beauty of them, though, is they wear their hearts on their sleeves. Sometimes the brutal truth is tough to take, but they aren't shy about serving it up!

I guess my point is you could be the best mother in the world and staying up 24 hours a day to cater to your kids and your 4 year old would still say "your always too busy" when he didn't get the attention he wanted. It's where he is developmentally not necessarily a problem with your parenting!

Miker

Cherished,

Thank you for your words. I remember just recently when I discovered who you were (since I had taken a 'reprieve' from posting much), and I remember how proud of you I felt. I am still proud of you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He blamed me, and I accepted the blame. I thought I was responsible for his actions, and so did he. Abuse fog...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's amazing how thick that 'fog' can be. I can truly attest that my 'abuse fog' was even thicker than my 'A fog' - mainly b/c my OM was like a 'surrogate' for my H when he was not around. It took so much more strength to separate myself from the abuse than it did to separate from OM. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Everyone here posts that all A's are individual, but carry the same undercurrents. The same could be said for abuse situations. The individual details may be different, but undernealth, the foundation is very much the same.

I am really glad that your H chose to stay with you and to work on it. My H didn't, but I can at least attest that I am happier now than I was in the M. It can go either way - my H has always said he would never have changed had it not been for the A. I still don't think he has changed yet. Your H did. Either way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

KMEJ - this is something for you to note. Both Cherished and I reached our end point. And we both were prepared to leave. Her H took it as a wake up call, and changed. My H took it as an opportunity to capitalize on his 'victim' role, and chose D. Either can happen.

But the important part is that both Cherished and I are happier.....regardless. It's scary at first. Very scary. But I think your 4 yo has a point. Yes, 4 yo are inherently ego-istic.....however, I think his issues are deeper than just his age. I agree with you that it is a wake up call. You really are responsible for them, and every action you and your H do are influencing them and how they will represent themselves in future relationships. It's hard to see it, but I think he is crying out here.

I hope you find time to read the posts. Also look up Cherished's posts. You can see each of us grow and change our perspectives.

The problem with seeing and not doing? By realizing (even a little bit) that you are in an abusive relationship, a small amount of light has been cast in the dark, shut off room. And that light cannot be turned off. You can try to run and hide - you can go in a corner, you can hide under the covers....but that light is still there. And the only way to come to terms with it is to find it's source, and move into the light, rather than away from it.

KMEJ - you can do it - you may not feel like it right now (not many of us really did), but you must have faith that you can be a healthy person.

(((KMEJ)))

Yesterday was an interesting day. My youngest was still sick, now has a nasty cold and a fever of 103.5 and still has the traces of the croup. My point for shareing that was that H had to work and the person we had lined up to take him did not want him watch him (rightfully so). I took half a day off to watch the kids. H went to work and then to bowling. I was upset because I felt since I rearranged my schedule at work (no easy feat mind you) I felt he should find a sub for bowling so I could still attend the cookie exchange, as I feel I miss out on everything so that he does not have too. H sympathized but did not even attempt to find a sub, I was hurt. I felt that H was only looking out for #1 (himself). When H got home that night (at 10:30) with his friend in toe I let him know (not LB'ing either <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> yeah me!) how I felt. Also that I would have no time for just me this week at all, since he was not home last night, I work until 11pm tonight (been at work since 7am) and H was refusing to go to Christmas at my mothers house tomorrow, and is going to his friends Christmas party on Sunday which is an all day all night event. Okay rambling.

Point, we talked for a few minutes, I let him know how hurt I was, and that my needs were continueally being left unmet, and that I was not happy. I asked him if he knew what Sunday was (it is the 9 year anniversary that we "offically" became and"item" (I think I am dateing myself with my highschool termonology <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )) H put a big grin on his face and started joking with me, only then was not the time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I asked if he had any plans on spending part of that day with me, he said that I was now coming to the party for a little bit, I could come watch the game and then take the boys home. I did not find that at all charitable. I am not an after thought, and unless I mean enough to him to make me a proirity for a while that day I was not interested. He said I was not being fair, I said I was. He then went down stairs to play a game with his friend.

On a good note the little man is feeling better today!! Yeah! I can maybe get some sleep tonight!!!!!!

<small>[ December 25, 2004, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: Cherished ]</small>

KMEJ,

I've said about everything I can think of on yoru situation.

So...I'll simply wish you a merry christmas and add that I hope 2005 is a happy, prosperous, fulfilling year for you!

Also, I am glad that your son is feeling better.

AndrewA- Thanks for posting to me. Your insight has been helpful. I posted what happend yesterday to keep with my journaling theme.

Cherished- I see where you are coming from. I want more for my boys. I am actually thinking of gong on some A/D's or anxiety medicine so that I am not so quick to frustration with my boys and so I stop tearing up during heartwarming comercials and TV shows (like The Biggest Loser). I do not like being this emotional, and not being able to function properly.

I am not giving up on me. I will stay strong. If you all are frustrated with me I understand. I do.

KMEJ,

I also went on anti-anxiety meds last spring. I still take them. It has calmed my anxiety enough that I can now live without panic attacks every day. Make the phone call to your doctor today!

KMEJ...I can so see the similarities between you and I. I put off making decisions for years. I just couldn't believe I could end up in a situation like that, so I kept trying and trying to fix it. I am a very stubborn person I guess.

If big changes are too much for you, start with the small ones. Start by getting a book on abusive relationships and reading it. Have you done that yet or are you afraid of what you'll find out? I was like that too. Start telling friends and family what is going on.
Read "The Emotionally Abused Woman" by Beverly Engel. Reread LIT and Cherished's posts often, they are good ones. Have you looked into therapy yet?

Keep standing up for yourself. Instead of telling your husband how hurt you are, just state what your limits are "I will no longer be talked to that way...or I will no longer be laughed at. It's abusive and I will not accept it." If he argues with you, or tries to blow you off, turn around and leave the room. Everytime you stick up for yourself makes you feel better about you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by DoHa99:
<strong> KMEJ,
I also went on anti-anxiety meds last spring. I still take them. It has calmed my anxiety enough that I can now live without panic attacks every day. Make the phone call to your doctor today!
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have some really strong feelings regarding this. Think this through carefully before you decide to just jump on meds to cope with this. Some of these drugs are pretty scary. Make sure you do your research on them and the side effects before you decide to try them. There is lots of information on the internet about them.

In my opinion the situation is the problem and no amount of meds will help. They may help you cope but they won't fix the problem. Do you want to be on "brain" drugs for the rest of your life to help you cope with your life?

Just my opinion but before you just jump into this make sure you talk to the appropriate professionals and make sure its the right things to do. It's not without risk.

Miker

<small>[ December 25, 2004, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: Cherished ]</small>

Miker:

Oops my bad, I actually do agree with you. However, these are only available by prescription, usually the doc wants you to get some therapy as well.

Also, the drugs are only prescribed for a limited amount of time, not for the rest of your life. Follow-up visits are required as well.

I did not mean to imply in any way that they are a substitute for solving problems. That's why the doctor usually recommends therapy as an adjunct. Quite a few people on these boards have taken meds to help cope with their stress symptoms for a limited period of time only.

Update.
I am confused. People tell me to stand up for myself, and then when I do, they tell me I did it all wrong and I am just as bad as he is. ***Heavy Sigh*** I guess I just don't get it.

you are doing great!!!

keep your chin up. i gotta go my ww is bringing the kids over and i am cooking dinner.

keep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> smiling <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
ill be back at 8:30 tx time