Hi…me again…I get to still have this A thrown in my face after a strong plan B of 4 ½ mos. No sign of any abatement in this repulsive relationship.

A dear friend of mine who lives in the same city as OM is in the hospital. I was the MC at his wedding 12 years ago and we have since kept our friendship often going to his in-laws lake lot with our families during the summer. His wife passed on 1 ½ years ago from breast cancer. My WW was a huge source of support for them both and we truly loved them as friends. This friend has fractured his leg during (remember I’m from Canada) what else but a hockey game. He had a plate screwed into his leg and is in a lot of pain.

I know he keeps in loose contact with WW, but has told her he will not see her and OM as a couple. He has spoken recently to WW regarding pain meds as she is a RN. Well low and behold who walks into his room at the hospital but OM. For those that don’t know, OM is a doctor. OM introduces himself and has a short conversation with my friend. My friend is polite, but called my WW afterwards telling her this is not appropriate. He also then told me which launched me into a profanity laced dissertation on what I would like to do to OM. It’s nice to be comfortable in a friendship where I can embark on an ugly tirade and not have to justify my thoughts.

I really can’t believe she/he would be so arrogant to think they can assume a role within our circle of friends and be accepted so easily. I really think OM has peed on enough of my trees, but to be so ballsy as to saunter up to my pals………well…..my face is feeling hot again…….I’m really starting to type with attitude…..deep breaths…deep breaths…..

I think a lot of this is his ego. I said some pretty disrespectful things to him last year when all this began. A man of his “stature” is not used to that sort of treatment. Now he gets to beat me without ever throwing a punch. I truly hate this man.

I find myself looking forward to ending this, AKA DIVORCE, but nothing really ends then does it? One can’t divorce their feelings and a whole set of new ones would come into play. I would still have to deal with her exposing my children to this one day soon. What changes? I hate this.

No real question here….just a vent.

I think that was a pretty good vent. Hey - it worked for me!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Binder:
<strong>I really can’t believe she/he would be so arrogant to think they can assume a role within our circle of friends and be accepted so easily.

I think a lot of this is his ego.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Believe it, Binder.

This seems to be so, so, so typical of infidels before their epiphany, if it ever comes. They see nothing wrong with their new lives and assume everyone should accept them. After all, their new relationship is so perfect. Why would anyone object to it? - other than those pitiful betrayed spouses who obviously don't understand that the prior marriages were really over LONG ago. Their reality is unreal.

So, ego - in the form of extreme selfishness - plays a role for all of them - in my view. They are in denial that they did anything wrong - or what they did was justified - and they have painted over all the mirrors in their lives. It's easier to criticize others, even IF they see there's a problem.

Let me contribute to your vent: They are failing at the basic hygiene of human behavior and their stench is apparent to everybody else who knows their story.

The deeper question is, are they really aware of their stench and are self absorbed enough to live with it, or are they unaware of it, supported by their denial in a temporary insanity sort of way?

WAT

Blessed are you Binder to have such friends that understand the core sanctity of marital vows...not only on a personal level but on their profound effect on society....

people have forgotten that weddings are not about the dress, cake, bad chicken dinner or the pomp...but about supporting marriages...

there is a reason that most Christian Ceremonies state...
what God has joined let no man put asunder...

words of great value...and perhaps even a God given mandate.....

I love that your friend called your wife and told her to step off with OM contact in your friends life....

In reality if he had no MEDICAL reason to be in there...both he and she broke his GOVERNMENT MANDATED HIPPA RIGHTS.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Consider seeing this differently...

their attempts to normalize and deny the affects of their actions...was thwarted by someone whom your wife cares about....
there disrepect reaches beyone immediate family...
eats at core values....

takes the pressure off of you...and gives them some new fodder to chew on...and may it taste bitter to them....

ARK

Binder -

Don't let this bother you too much. That is how they ALL are. WAT has it just right. Just part of the disease.

EWWWWW.

Completely declasse Binder,on both their parts.Hers for assuming that your mutual friend would benefit from OM's input just because he is a doctor and sends him over and his for trying to ingratiate himself into the inner sanctum of the friendship world.It's amazing how these WS's and OP's think they can just trample over everything sacred and then selfishly continue to make decisions based on what they feel is right only for them.My WH still does this under the guise that it's "best for the children".

Kudos to your friend though for nipping that behavior in the bud before they start inviting themselves over for dinner or who knows what. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

O

WAT, Ark^^, believer and Octobergirl, thank you for listening to the ramblings of a tired marital warrior. I also am grateful for your responses. I do appreciate my friend for stating his mind…he’s truly a good man.

I did have to call one of our mutual friend’s tonight though; I know he’s been in touch with my WW. They are friends, OK…..I would blow off any wife of a buddy that cheated on him, but that’s his prerogative. I know that WW will no doubt try and integrate OM into that friendship too.

So I called him up and said to him that I value our friendship, hope to keep it, but if he is going to hang out with the two of them…as a couple, I can’t preserve our friendship under those circumstances. I told him I figured I state that right up front rather than find out about it after the fact and have it end the friendship that way.

He got pi$$ed at me. Said I was telling him what to do, and no one is going to do that. I tried to tell him who he hung around with was his choice, not telling him not to, just telling him I will choose not to hang around those that do befriend the couple knowing the history.

Well…..doubt I’ll be getting a Christmas card from him now.

I am soooooo tired of this….did I mention that?

Yep, pretty sorry. You don't need Christmas cards from infidelity sympathizers. Isn't that a hypocritical mix, huh?

Take comfort that you're not alone here. We had very close family friends who were instrumental in our support group during my son's battle with cancer. The Mom in this family was devoutly religious and was the Godmother of our son. Since our divorce I have received absolutely no contact from them, but they have remained friends with my XW and apparently "accept" her marriage with OM. I cannot deny that they were dear friends at one time. But I cannot consider them friends now. Very sad.

And some here wonder why I'm suspect of "holy" personas?

WAT

One of those double thingys when your confuser times out and you don't know if the post made it or not.

<small>[ December 17, 2004, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

Jeepers Binder.He sounds like a 5 year old."Don't tell me what to do!" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Well,he could have been more supportive.But you can't win em all right? Perhaps his allegiance is more toward your WW so that right there should show you where your friendship stands.It's hard though.In my case,mostly it's people who turn a blind eye and ignore the big elephant in the room.It's easier not to make a decision one way or the other and keep both as friends than stand up and NOT support bad behavior even if the friendship is at risk.

On the other hand,your friend may have felt an agonizing instantaneous pressure that he had to make a choice,you or your WW,and he just blew.Some people react rather than think things through.If the friendship is worth it,maybe you could appraoch him again and tell him that you are sorry that he was upset but that it just hurts you to be around anyone who supports your WW in her adultery.Something like that maybe? What do you think?

But,you could also just let the friendship slide.It's up to you.In the end,you don't want to be around anyone who is supporting or denying what is going on.C'est la vie.

O

Mornin WAT and O,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Take comfort that you're not alone here. We had very close family friends who were instrumental in our support group during my son's battle with cancer. The Mom in this family was devoutly religious and was the Godmother of our son. Since our divorce I have received absolutely no contact from them, but they have remained friends with my XW and apparently "accept" her marriage with OM. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I take a lot of comfort in this cyber community, few can relate to the chaos infidelity visits upon so many aspects of ones life. I also would suggest your friends may be devoutly "religious" but not very Godly; I've learned how cheap talk can be. The betrayals come from so many angles and unforeseen places, it truly is tragic.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Jeepers Binder.He sounds like a 5 year old."Don't tell me what to do!" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He said he felt like he was in Grade 2 and that I would look back on this and question my decisions. I did not do this without much forethought, I waited several weeks to see if I was going to be comfortable with this "uncomfortable" discussion. I decided my values would not be compromised here. My friendships are not unconditional. I would never socialize with a person that broke into his home, beat his family up (though he's single) and then leave and do it to his own family. I may not always be the greatest friend, but I am damn loyal.

As an aside, he is currently involved, at the very least emotionally, with a co-worker who is leaving her husband (after telling my "friend" she loves him) because her marriage is soooo bad. Like I'll socialize with those two if they try to make a go of it.

He's not the closest of friends, but a very close friend to my very close friend in the hospital. It will put a strain on socializing. I hope he sees my point of view, but am willing to accept he may not.

I must say this experience has made me redefine my values and what I will and won't accept both from my friends and myself. It sort like one doesn't really worry about the brakes on your car....until you can't stop.

Off topic here, went to my son's Christmas concert last night. Of course WW was there too...with MIL. I brought my mother. I got to see my daughter briefly and did not interact with WW. As my MIL has been very supportive of our marriage and me personally, I called her afterwards to say I was sorry we didn't get a chance to visit.

I try not to get into things regarding WW with her and she's quite good about keeping my confidence, but we started to talk. She's telling me how WW is getting pretty haggard working her job, teaching ACLS (Advanced Cardio Life Support) taking extra shifts at the hospital, and trying to keep her house up. Of course she has to make time to travel to see OM as well. Says she seems very sad. Also states she misses how loving and sensitive I was (plan A) and now sees me as so cold. (plan B). She referred to the time a month or so ago, when WW dropped off the children, handed me a bag with some doughnuts for them with one for me included. When WW began to try and talk, I closed the door and tended to the children. Apparently WW went back to the car in tears. Also says WW will divorce me. Gee and things were going so well.

I responded that it'll take more than a piece of pastry to heal this. I again told her about the PBL and said WW knows what she has to do before I will even discuss our relationship, that my reaction is borne out of pain and self-preservation rather than arrogant bitterness. I also said that if her mind is made up to divorce, get on with it. It's been just over a year since our ill-advised "constructive separation" and she may proceed at will. I'm tired of having the Band-Aid slowly removed, time to give it a good yank if that's what is to be.

I further stated that WW should get up and be the happiest person in the world as that is what all this was about. She should be so darn happy a daisy should be growing out her [censored] every morning she wakes up as so many people are miserable so she can be "happy". OK...I left out the daisy part, but I did rant a bit.

I calmed down and MIL and I quietly related how sad we both are. She asked if she could tell WW that I am merely protecting myself and mean no malice. I said that would be OK. She further feels WW is so deep into this she doesn't know how to get out. I again referred to the letter.

I still hate this.

BTW WAT....I read that you won't ever shoot a moose. Good. you’re invited to moose camp...we need a cook. How are you with moose tenderloin? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Binder:
<strong>BTW WAT....I read that you won't ever shoot a moose. Good. you’re invited to moose camp...we need a cook. How are you with moose tenderloin? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Where'd you read THAT? I mean, it's probably true - even one with MBWs* - but I don't ever remember making a statement like that before! I shoot the breeze and used to like shooting the curl, but I'll leave shooting the meese to you.

But when and where is the camp? Would love to try out some of Wilo Willie's #1 rub on a moose tenderloin.

* MBW - moose brain worms. Makes the mooses act weird and do very un-mooselike stuff, so claimed by former MB poster mbtrk. Also used to describe his WS - "She's so infected with MBWs that they're crawling out of her ears!"

WAT

Aha,the plot thickens.So your friend is invovled with a woman who is leaving her terrible marriage and to whom she says ILY.Interesting.You probably touched a nerve by suggesting that friendships don't always support whatever you feel like doing on any given day even if it hurts people.

Moose business aside <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ....I think it's a natural progression for your WW to find,now,that things aren't going to be so great with this OM and she's not going to be living on easy street either.Whenever I catch a glimpse of my WH when he is here(I susualy don't look at him) he looks drawn out too.And if I am to believe any of his most recent e-mails,things aren't so perfect in his newfound life either.But,like he does most of the time,he just doesn't talk about homewrecker to anyone or talk about much at all.He knows that no one wants to hear about the homewrecker at all.It's something he will never have the "joy" of sharing with anyone in family.No one wants to know a thing about her.If they think they can live that way and be happy,then whatever.Your WW is also divided too.She may have some friends that support her behavior but it will always be the little cloud that follows her around.

I too think my WH is so deep in this adultery that he doesn't know how to get out if he wanted to.I think it's easier for him to run away and not face what he is going through.He finds comfort in going back to the adulterous relationship.I have heard other FWS's say that here.It's like they are drawn to the pits of evil like zombies who cannot control what they are doing.They are under a spell or brainswashed.

My MIL has also supported me a great deal.She is still very upset and saddened that we are D'ing and always tells me that they in no way support my WH for what he is doing and are disappointed since they thought they raised him right,as she says.

Anyway,we can't be all chipper and happy go lucky all the time on the off chance a WW comes back and looks at us with a questioning heart.Like you mentioned,we make it clear what they need to do in order for us to put ourselves out there,take heaps more pain to go through recovery but many just cannot end the A and stop contact with the homewrecking OP.Step one has to be done first.

I hate this too.It sux.

O

Sorry WAT...this is the quote I mis-read:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by worthatry:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by StillHereMakingIt:
How can ANYONE say they would NEVER have an A...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Like Pep and I have already said it > I will never have an affair.

(This is aside from the technicality that I'm not married.)

This is based a LOT on what I've learned from experiencing one as a BS + the fact that I had plenty of the "recipe" before that to have one and I didn't.

WAT
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would never steal a car.

I would never shoot a moose.

I would never strip in public. (oops, not true, did that once) I would NEVER AGAIN strip in public.

I think it is valid for MYRTA (or any other FWS) to say "I would NEVER have another affair."

We take our WS back based on that premise ---> that they have learned from their mistake! And, if we choose to, we can learn from the mistakes of others.

So, why can't I say "never" too?

Pep
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK...you can come moose hunting...PEP can come to cook.

Octobergirl,

Yes...our situations continue to parallel. I know that our destinations will no doubt be better than or WS if they continue on their quest for "happiness". I wonder if this is what a parent feels when one of their children makes, and continues to make, such obviously bad decisions and tank thier lives.

Hi Binder,

I don't think that I've ever written to you before, but this thread caught my eye as I have (unfortunately) lots of experience in dealing with adulterous friends. My best friend of 13 years betrayed her husband and had several affairs. Of course, I didn't know that as I was busy watching her child while she went out to "find herself". Anyway, I found out about the last affair when she was divorcing her husband. At this time, I asked her if the she is having an affair with the guy that she is seeing and she denied, saying they are just friends... I told her that I could not be of any support to her as long as she is continuing this inappropriate friendship with OM. She said that their "friendship" turned into a PA because she felt deserted by ME!!! So, now I was at fault that she was cheating on her husband!!! Fog, Fog and more fog... She divorced her husband for this guy who then divorced his wife (plus several small children) only for them to brake up just a few months afterwards. She has been trying to rekindle our friendship and at one time I thought about giving it a try again, too, but it's not been possible. Too many lies, too much hurt. Plus when my own husband was having his EA with OW, she said something like "Oh well, someday you'll end up divorced like me.".

End of story is that I do not need friends like that. These are not people who are looking out for me and my happiness. They want others to share their misery. People like that bring you down and you cannot trust them, ever.

I have lots of acquaintances, but very few true friends and that's okay. I'm actually often happy just to be with me. This was a gradual learning process, but it's something that I'm very proud that I've accomplished. I'm okay being with me.

I'm also a lot pickier now with the kind of friends that I make and I do not share my heart and soul with just anyone anymore.

Don't worry about this "friend" of yours. He does not deserve your friendship. You sound like a great guy and I'm sure there are many people in your life who are truly deserving of your friendship.

Kati

Binder,

Glad you are doing ok despite the fog around your WS. The OM is a scum and if he walks in to visit a patient who already said that this 'doctor' was not welcomed, I think the patient should push the call button and ask this doctor parading as an OM be removed! LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Sorry your friend is hurt. You are a good friend to be there for him and he for you. As for that other friend....well.....trying times brings out the best and the worst. For us right now, a former BS seems to be a WS (not me...someone else) and it hurts that she just cut off communication to have her so called A. She does know better but is terribly lonely (still no excuse).

Good your MIL is sensible. You can both support each other.

As for the WS being tired....that is her choice, eh? Let her live it that way.

I watch a few on here @ MB and have seen them grow in their survival skills. You are one of those and I am glad to see you know you are a better person and can wade thru all the BS A crap thrown you way and still come up shining. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Keep up the good work. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

take care,
L.

Kati, thanks for your reply and welcome to my world.

I have always kept close...but few friends. I can now see how I pick my friends too, not that I do this consciously. The ones I pick, the close ones, have qualities I feel I lack in myself and wish I possessed. Sometimes it’s as simple as a gentle spirit and the ability to enjoy the present. Sometimes it’s clarity of thought and the ability to articulate that. On occasion it’s the ownership of a fishing boat. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I am loyal as all heck to those I call my friends, I expect the same. I admit I could have used a bit more tact speaking to my other friend...maybe “asked” him not to see them, but my boundaries, and the consequences of stepping beyond them would have been the same. It just may have sounded a little less confrontational and less like an ultimatum. Oh well, it’s done. I’m known to be “honest as a sledgehammer”.

Orchid, I thought that was you, had this funny feeling of being watched. Yes I’ve come a ways since this adventure began. I can now see the big picture instead of getting lost in the minutia of our infrequent encounters. I could definitely learn to be warmer, but distant during our contacts. I’m not good at that balancing act though...sort of a full speed or nothing guy.

I’m sorry your friend has decided to hide within an affair. No doubt she knows what you’d say, but she is missing out on some great insight. I’m grateful to have benefit of that.

Just got off the phone with my sister...she called to wish me a happy New Year...nice of her. She also related the story of being at her neighbers (WW's friend) house a couple of weeks ago for a Christmas party. WW was there with the OM. Very uncomfortable.

WW, of course, had to come over and tell my sister how our marriage has been over for 5 years. That's news....I guess our 3 year old daughter was born out of wedlock.

Sis is 50, has been around the block once or twice and didn't buy any of the crap and told her as much.

WW has left town for a couple of days this week. Apparantly left our D to stay with friends. MIL will not babysit for WW as she feels the MOTHER should be caring for her own children. However if I was a betting man I'd say WW took our son to meet OM...maybe a bit of skiing to test drive the "blended family". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

I really really wish I had full custody and could do a proper very strict Plan B for about the next 40 - 50 Yrs. or so.

I'm not in this marriage (what's left of it) for me now. I have no burning love to nurture any more. I don't even have any respect for my WW now. My children. It comes down to my children. I can't protect them from that. I would sacrfice my life without a second thought to prevent harm to them and I'm not even afforded the oportunity to do that. If divorce would solve this for them, I'd file tommorrow.

They don't even know about OM yet. I've had a year to absorb this, their journey is just getting underway. 2004 will always be remembered as the year my children lost their innocence.

What a mess.

Evening Canuck. Did you get any more info on the legal stuff? I haven't been to a civil lawyer yet. THat I can't afford just yet. But, I am great at reearching on the net. AND, my DS27's fiance just happens to be a legal secretary <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

How are you holding up? Lots of Snow? None here but it is freezing out here. Have a hot toddy on me, K?

I'll bet it's a tad colder here. I don't mind the snow and cold really. I celebrate winter; do some ice fishing...X-country skiing....even have camped in the winter. There's really no such thing as bad weather.....just bad equipment.

I must commend you on your research abilities. That's some interesting legislation you dug up. I've not found any similar stuff for this province. If you find out anything more let me know.

The legal secretary would be a great asset. I've got some lawyer connections here that I can draw upon when needed, but not a relation. I'm feeling the need coming on soon.

I'd have a hot toddy...maybe even two if I knew how to make them.

The woman that resembles my wife dropped off the children this AM. My S tells me he was flown to Whistler to do a bit of skiing while our daughter was left with WW’s friends. I know OM was there as well.....she wouldn't fly to the west coast just to go skiing, heck we can drive to the mountains from here.

Without grilling my son, I've no reason to believe that he knowingly met OM. One day, however, my son will realize what the background was for his "first trip skiing in the mountains". He will always get to wonder what motivated it...his mothers desire to cheat...vs. her love for a child. He also had to miss the playoff game for his hockey tournament to go there. He's not happy about that either; another sacrifice for his mother's infidelity. She may be raising a misogynist when he figures this out.

I see this as more of a desperate act. Either OM does not want to be recognized with WW at a ski hill close to home, or WW had to go skiing to make sure OM doesn't shag some foreign tourist at the hill. She cannot keep a lifestyle like that going....and given the Dr.’s assets, business interests, children, and scorned wife....a divorce for him will be long.....messy.....and sobering.

They best enjoy the ride for the swath of devastation left in their wake…but what goes up…must come down.