myrta,-- i sure hope me and my wife can be as far along as you two as fast as you. though i am sure it has not seemed fast enough. i hope the OM in your case gets the message that you don't want anything to do with him and will leave you and your family alone. he is not much of a man if he can not respect your marriage. just my opinion. i will keep you and yours in my prayers. i can't imagine him saying something to your daughters, he should know that that would not make you want to be with him. don't worry about it. i am still hoping one day the wife will join us at MB but until then you are a big help. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> the wife and girls are ahopping, and i just put the boy to bed. it has been a good day. much better then i expected.maybe playing cool and indifferent helped? or maybe, the fog is lifting? hopefully, tomorrow will be even better,.gotta go check on son,,i will check back in later,....arjdad

ARJ- I think you are getting there, dont worry, you will get there soon. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I think your wife is starting to come out of the fog, yes. I think thats happening, plus you playing cool-indifferent with her is paying off. LOL. JUst continue acting that way, and dont overwhelmed her with attention and she will come out faster.

I surely hope the OM does not say anything to my girls, because I am capable of going to where he lives and do something crazy! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> . But yes, I think you are right, he would be stupid, if he thinks that will make me like him. But maybe he can do it just to ruin me, since I stayed with my husband and he thought I was going to end my marriage to be with him. I hope he is not nasty like that.

Well, I am happy you are feeling so positive today. Thats the way to be. Positive thinking brings positive results.

Talk to you later ARJ!!

MYRTA

<small>[ December 20, 2004, 09:56 PM: Message edited by: Myrta ]</small>

arjdad,

Yes, to me that sounds like the beginning of remorse. She's sorry that she got involved in it.

As far as her not reaching out to you first, I totally can understand. I was afraid to reach out to my H, for fear of leading him on when I wasn't 100% sure of where my head was at. While I wanted to be with him, I was afraid to initiate anything, and could only tolerate small amounts of being close, like hand-holding and hugging. In time that will change.

CC

P.S. Sounds like you had a better day today. I'm glad. Try to just take things slowly. It's like the beginning of a relationship all over again. That's how I looked at it. When she sees you happy, it'll make things easier for her. It'll all work out in time. Have a good nite!

CC

thanks for the encouragement you two. i feel better today. so buttercup, you think it is ok that she doesn't initiate contact as long as she responds favorably when i do? i think that to, but sometimes i am afraid i overdo it. like you said, a little at a time. i can tell when i get to clingy, it makes her uncomfortable, and she puuls away. i am trying to take things slow, thanks to you and myrta for the tips. gotta get back to work,....arjdad

Arjdad:

You know what?

I went through that period where I thought I was too clingy or perhaps too distant and actively tried to act in a way that I thought it would be pleasant to my wife. Then, I said--- to hell with it. Why can I be natural and simply be myself?

I don't know about you Arj, but since the affair I have developed a strong case of sperm competition and I like to make love all the time. For some time I was trying to hide or control this, but it simply made me unhappy. As for my wife Myrta, I eventually told her this is the way I feel and I cannot control my emotions.

I am sure I initiated love making when she was not in the mood. But, I really had to do it because I was going insane. Physical contact with my wife was the only thing that kept me from walking away.

Do you feel like making love to your wife? If you do--- let her know. Maybe you should try it. Lovemaking is an essential component of recovery.

stan-ley,--of course i feel like making love to my wife. but it has been such a long time, it does feel a little awkward. also, if she is not ready i don't want to be to pushy and slow down this process. can a BS be to patient? myrta, buttercup, i would like your opinion on this also. if this is like starting a new R would i expect her to make love after only 2 months? trying to stay optimistic, arjdad

ArJdad--Well, to tell you the truth when I used to make love with my husband the first three months or so, I was not that into it. I did with him, just to have him more or less "happy". He was in need of showing me 24-7 that I was his wife, his woman, not the OMs. I wished he had waited,maybe, a bit, but you have to start somewhere. And gradually it feels more normal and you start enjoying in it. I like making love very much just like him, but I was not that into it. But now, is getting better and better. We both enjoy it very much. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

But Arjdad--you can tell your wife, that you will like it very much to be intimate with her. She has to get use to you , to your lovemaking again. So the quicker you start the better. And also making love bonds the two of you too.

How are you doing today? Still going alone to the marriage counseling tomorrow? I hope she changed her mind.

MYRTA

myrta,-- this is a very deliate subject. of course i would love to be intimate with her right now, but i realize men and women are different in this area.she still needs to be conected with me emotionally. i don't know if she would /could make love right now anyway. i want it to be special for her the next time we make love. to tell you the truth, i think i will be quite nervous the next time.things seem to be a little better today, i get off work at 1:30 and brought her lunch home. she took a short break and came into dining room, we had lunch and visited for 20 minutes until she had to get back to work. our youngest d has a band concert tonite, so wife is working while she can. i amthinking of letting son stay home with older d, so the wife and i can go alone. youngest d plays the alto sax, and she is pretty good if i say so myself <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> i am still going to MC alone, but i am ok with that. wi made the appt. with MC with wife in the room [she wants to go back after holidays] so it is not like she broke an appt. anyway, MC also does IC, and sometimes it helps me to talk to her alone. that is why i wish wife would. hopefully over christmas break, i will talk to her about lurking on this site, and talking to you. i mentioned this last week at MC, but she did not seem to receptive right now. said she felt a little uncomfortable discussing something so personal with strangers. you three do not feel like strangers to me anymore, and i think you could help her to, someday. i will work on that. back to the topic, do you really think i should tell her i would like to be intimate? or should i remain laid-back and patient? i don't want to rush her to do something she is not comfortable with yet if that will slow up the healing. does that make sense? thanks for encouragement,....arjdad

ArJdad- I know this is very delicate, you have to approach it with a lot of care and tact. I do agree with you in that one, but ArJ...when my husband and I started , I was not at all!!!! emotionally connected with him either. And it was ackward, ArJ, but if you dont start , when will you? The more time it passes, the bigger the gap of being ackward, you almost become like strangers.

You can tell her, give her hints , that you would like to have some intimacy with her and see what she says. Play it by ear!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> .

You and my husband are so different in the approach. My husband would always tell me what was in his mind, wheter I wanted to hear or not. I would get angry with some things, yes, but ArJ, his words will stay with me, they will creep slowly in what had to be done. If you never talk to her, and keep putting things off, the more difficult it gets. You keep on thinking that "today" is not the right time. After the holidays, you might say, I should put it off till after Saint Valentine. So, you really have to dare to do it. The worst thing that could happen is that she says, "I dont want to do it yet, I need more time". Fine, but at least you know that she needs more time, you have more of a time frame in your mind.

If I had not given in to my husband, we would be behind in progress, I think! JL,and others here advice me ,that I needed to make HIM happy, because I was the one that had to try to give him what he wanted, even if I was not "ready", they told me I was being selfish, just thinking about myself. It made me angry to hear that, but I was that way.

I hope you have a good time in the concert tonight. I love those Christmas concerts. So your daughter likes to play the sax? wow!! thats kind of difficult wind instrument for a girl. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
Thats cute, how old is she??

MYRTA

myrta, i don't know if you had read this on one of my early posting's, but my wife and i have not made love in over a year. we were so far apart during her affair, that she had no interest in sex, and i didn't pursue it much. i figured if she wants to initiate sex, she knows where to find me. of course i didnt know she was in the middle of an A.so you can see why it is so awkward. she has never had a real high sex drive, that is why i didn't suspect anything. i just thought she didn't want it. i know making love makes you connected faster, and i would love for that to happen, but i worry about the timing.i know i should talk to her, and i do plan on it soon. tomorrow is the last day of work for me until jan.4 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> i like your idea to give her hints and play it by ear, i will do that. also, i will discuss this with MC tomorrow. also i agree that the worst thing she could say is "i am not ready, or i need more time", at least then i would have an idea, and she would know what i want. ...... also our youngest d is 13 and in the 8th grade. she started school 1 year early in a private christian school, so she is 1 year younger then most of her classmates. that has not been a problem tho. straight a student and varsity b-ball player. [sorry to brag about her, but i can't help it]. she doesn't really like band, but she likes playing the sax. so she isn't planning on doing band in high school, but wants to keep her sax. she has been playing for 4 years, so i told her the sax is hers to keep. some times when she closes her door and practices in her room, i go d/stairs and sit on the couch and just listen. i think it is my favorite inst. wish i could play it!.. i gotta go play with the boy, check in later,...arjdad

ArJdad---Yes, my husband told me he read in your earlier posts about your lack of sexual activity for that year. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> . I understand what you are saying. My husband and I did not have alot of sex during the affair, but we really never stopped having it. Only the last three or four months, it decreased to one or two times per month.
But ArJ--dont assume she does not want to have SF with you. I thought my husband was truly disgusted with me and that he really did not want to have SF with me. I felt ackward that he would want to do it with me, after me hurting him so much. I had a lot of contradictory feelings in my head about myhusband, about sex, about love, about everything!!!! Maybe your wife has desires for you, but she is afraid to admit this, or to initiate anything with you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Well, have a good time tonight in your daughters performance. Its fun to see those kids in band, some are so good allready and others <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> not so good!!!

Take care.

MYRTA

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">when my husband and I started , I was not at all!!!! emotionally connected with him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ouch!!!!!!!!!!!

Arjdad:

This is serious business. When a WW has an affair she will often fall in love with all the bells and whistles. How do you think they rationalize sleeping with another man? Everytime my wife had doubts about the affair and felt guilt about the betrayal OM would tell her that they were living a true love story and that things happen for a reason. In one of her emails my wife was sure God had put OM in her path for a purpose. When they were in the sac with the OMs you and I were not in the picture at all---------- it was all about them and divine intervention. How could anything this beautiful be wrong?

This is devastating and IMHO, the key to recovery is the WW. At the onset, like you, I was doing all the work and trying to forgive my wife. I was tormented by contradictory thoughts and hesitated between staying in the marriage and leaving Myrta. Every time there was a crisis Myrta did whatever she had to do. I guess it was mostly SF and affection, but it was highly effective. I suspected she was going through the motions, but she must be a real good actress and I worked for me.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I had not given in to my husband, we would be behind in progress, I think! JL,and others here advice me ,that I needed to make HIM happy, because I was the one that had to try to give him what he wanted, even if I was not "ready", they told me I was being selfish, just thinking about myself. It made me angry to hear that, but I was that way.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Like I said above. The famous JL told Myrta countless of times that the key to recovery was in her hands. The fact that I was willing to stay married and had forgiven her was not enough. It is the job of the WW to restore the emotional connection and everything else. The BH cannot do it all. I used to tell my wife that if I had betrayed her I would work real hard to make everything work, but this is a man’s perspective. WWs are a strange breed and very complex human beings. Two days after D-day my wife told me she LOVED ME MORE THAN EVER and I said to her: Gee, two days ago you said the same thing to OM. This is hard stuff Arjdad and the foggy WW will say things that are crazed at best. The only reason I did not walk is because somehow my wife found the strength to do what she had to do to move things along. I think it is time for your wife to start working on the marriage. Show her these posts!


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, to tell you the truth when I used to make love with my husband the first three months or so, I was not that into it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That really hurts.

But, you know what? It was quite awkward for me as well. I never knew if she was really into it or not. However during the 1st three weeks or so after D-day she was always aroused----------------- and then came the desert (if you know what I mean). Nevertheless I still needed SF. If I didn’t get it I could not function.

BTW, SF is still awkward for me. Despite all the time and everything else I still have movies while I make love to my wife. I think I am adapting to the movies and they seem to affect me less, but they are there. I also fear that my wife may not be satisfied with me. I wonder about faked orgasm (never did before) and everything else. This is no picnic Arj--------- it is a work in progress!

Do not feel insecure----------- I am 100% sure you have more value than OM. For example you are not a cheater and that by itself tells your wife you have much more integrity than OM.

CHANGE OF TOPIC:

Do not completely discard the idea of informing the wife of OM. You may want to wait until she is better, but at some point she needs to know she is married to a liar and a cheater. I know it hurts to say this about OM since our wives did the same. So be it, they know they lied and they will eventually come to grips with this. That is part of their recovery and many FWWs in this board will freely admit they were lying thru their teeth when in the fog.

<small>[ December 21, 2004, 08:51 PM: Message edited by: Stan-ley ]</small>

ArJdad- I am going to thread jack here a bit to tell my husband that those feelings and those statements that I said in my previous posts are in the past <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> .
I love, I want , I desire my husband, not the OM. That was the biggest mistake of my life , we all know that!!
I am sorry he still feels ackward with me,though. I dont anymore, I feel like he is my man and I am his woman,his wife, I belong to him, only to him!!
I am sorry if I hurt you Stanley, I LOVE YOU!! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

myrta and stan-ley,--- thanks for your help. stan-ley, myrta is only trying to help me understand what my wife is thinking and going thru, and at least she is being honest. i think you two have a great future ahead of you. i am sure some of what she said hurt, but that is in the past. obviously, she loves you and only you very much. i also worry about if my wife will be satisfied with me sexually anymore. i hope that fear fades with time, but i am far from there. ....myrta, anytime you want to threadjack and tell your husband that you love him and him alone, please do. it encourages me to keep working on my M, hoping my wife can respond like you. i think you two are special people and things will work out for you. i appreciate both of your honest opinions you have shared with me. things are going well tonite, wife said she wasn't going to work, so we sat on the couch and watched tv together after the boy was tucked in bed.. i have to go now, we are going to bed at the same time, that doesn't happen very often, i will check in in the morning,,,..arjdad

ArJdad--It sounds like you had another good positive day today and I am so glad for you.
Did you snuggle while watching TV? I hope you did. Hey ArJ, when you sleep with your wife, are you two far away from each other or your bodies touch each other? Just curiosity <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

I think you are on your way to recovery too. Try not to worry too much. YOu are too good for your wife to let you go, she is just dealing with everything, it takes her time . And the fact that you have that little boy, is a very good reason for her to try to save your marriage. Everything is going to work out. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I hope your appointment tomorrow goes well. Share everything of the appointment with your wife if is for your benefit <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . Negative stuff, leave it out,LOL.

Take care

MYRTA

Hmm, seems like I missed a lot being away from my computer all day and night. Glad I caught up on Myrta and Stanley's posts, and your questions, Arjdad! Interesting...

My take on resuming sex after the A, is that in my case I wanted to take things very slowly. I was in a deep depression after D Day. Losing my FOW and best friend was almost too much to bear. I was very grateful that my H chose to stay with me, but I couldn't really WANT to have a sexual relationship with him. I was very confused, especially about my sexuality and my preferences. I hadn't wanted to be with a man for a while, after being with this woman. So, things in my case were different and difficult.

My H and I discussed it in MC, because sex was and always will be VERY, VERY, VERY important to him!! He'd like it daily. (I'm waiting for him to physically reach his numerical age! LOL). I've started to change, the older I get. I'd want it much more infrequently than that. To me, I'd want it only when it meant a lot--not just to fulfill an urge. I want it to me a moving, almost spiritual experience; not just a routine physical release.

Our MC gave me up to a year to sort things out and see what I'd want. I felt SO much less pressure and H and I started to enjoy each other so much more! I started to want to be a little mroe affectionate with him. To be honest, I haven't initiated sex yet with him, and I'm still pretty timid and unsure about the whole thing, but it's hard for me to figure out if it's just my age and what's happening to my body lately!

So, Arjdad, imo, I'd let your wife know what needs you have. She should know. But she should also be at a place where she'd WANT to take part in a sexual relationship with you. It's like starting over, except that you know a few things about each other. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Pressuring her or making her feel guilty about it might only cause her stress, but she should be aware that you have needs and you'd like her to come to a decision on whether or not she could fulfill them.

Good luck tomorrow. Let us know how it goes! My IC went well today. I pretty much vented about "normal" holiday things, and hardly spoke about the FOW at all. Baby steps........ Nite!

CC

mryt,-good morning, last night while watching tv we did not snuggle. we usually don't. we have a couch with a recliner in each end, she has a bad back and always has a heating pad on her end. i would be more than happy to sit in the middle so we could snuggle, but i don't want to seem pushy or desperate. but before we tucked our son in bed, he always cuddles wiyh mom on the couch before bed, i was sitting beside them with him in between us, and i reached over and held her hand. she seemed receptive to this and it actually felt like she was holding my hand to. you know, sometimes,when i hold her hand, it is just kind of limp there and it seems i am the only one holding.as far as sleeping, we rarely touch in bed. we are each on our own side <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> how sad. i remember when we used to cuddle for a while before we turned over to get comfortable to go to sleep. i would love to do that again. what a christmas present that would be. .........buttercup, thanks for your input.your sitch. is different, but many similarities. wife and OM talked almost everyday for 15 month's, and i think she would have considered him her best friend. i think she also wants to take it very slowly, i don't know if i am being patient or getting walked on. i do see glimpses of hope from her now and then, so i am optimistic. sex has always been very important to me as well, but i guess i put that on the back burner a long time ago. so the next time we make love, i want it to be special. like you said almost spiritual, not just physical release. also, she has never been the one to initiate sex, but i have always wished that she would sometimes. especislly now, then it would not seem like she was only doing it because she had to. i want her to want it to. if i have to wait longer, i will. i know i need to talk to her and tell of my needs, i am working on that. hopefully MC today can give me some pointers. i will share them with you guys later.i am glad to hear your session went well, keep up the good work, i gotta go, almost late for work,thanks guys for your support,.....arjdad

ArJdad--Good morning to you too!! YOu were up really early <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> .
Aww, so you did not snuggle while watching tv. You could sit a little closer to her. I am sure she would not mind. Why seat with one seat in between you? And also while "sleeping" you could "accidentally" touch her body with yours <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . YOu never know if she would like it and get closer to you.

Ihope your appointment goes well today, ArJ. Let us know how it went.

Take care

MYRTA

THERE ARE A FEW 2x4s in this post and perhaps you will feel disheartened. However, I want you to get better and there is a need to face some issues.

last night while watching tv we did not snuggle. we usually don't.

Arj: It seems you and your wife have lost the spark and romance. I have the feeling this was lost a long time before the affair. I must tell you that living like brother and sister is not a recipe for a good marriage. At some point the two of you were romantic with each other and somehow it all drifted away. The two of you must work on the romance factor.


I don't want to seem pushy or desperate.

No sex for over a year! Maybe twice in two years. Arjdad: You are a young man this is not right. I know of couples in their 60s and 70s who do it once or twice a week. Those are the marriages that last a lifetime with no affairs and where the couple is VERY HAPPY at all times.

I reached over and held her hand. she seemed receptive to this and it actually felt like she was holding my hand to. You know, sometimes, when I hold her hand, it is just kind of limp there and it seems I am the only one holding.

Arj: I always held my wife’s hand when we walked together in the shopping mall or anywhere else. I cannot walk next to her without holding her hand. I have done this ALL MY LIFE. It is automatic for us to have that physical connection and it WAS MAINTANED while Myrta was having the affair.

as far as sleeping, we rarely touch in bed. we are each on our own side how sad. I remember when we used to cuddle for a while before we turned over to get comfortable to go to sleep. I would love to do that again.

Arj: I cannot sleep if my wife’s body is not touching me. I have to feel her ALL NIGHT LONG. If there is as much as a half-inch between us in bed I am uncomfortable. This is the way it has been since day one. To this day I cannot sleep alone in bed. I am so used to feel my wife next to me that is very hard when I go away on a trip. Read MB principles again. For a good marriage you and your wife must have a lot of time together to promote intimacy. I suspect your wife worked nights while you slept and then she rested during the day while you were at work. That is a BIG NO NO!

wife and OM talked almost everyday for 15 month's, and I think she would have considered him her best friend. I think she also wants to take it very slowly,


Arj: Many folks who have affairs have this sense of entitlement. In a sense they are selfish. Now she wants to take her time while you wait and then wait some more. Sure------- some may say it is selfish to expect sex from the wife, but if the wife gave sex to OM freely and withheld sex from the H I don’t think anyone should call that selfish behavior by the husband.


Arj:

You can try to get your wife back my courting her again and depositing love units when she is not in withdrawal. You should also talk to your wife a lot. This will promote intimacy and from intimacy the change in brain chemistry associated with love will develop.

However, there is another way to bring about that change in brain chemistry. It is the “You never knew what you have until you lose it”. This is what Cerri said in another thread.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You can't become new again - but by removing yourself entirely and become rare commodity in danger of being lost you can indeed trigger the OMG-I-don't-want-to-lose-him chemistry.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If she is not receptive you I would let her know that perhaps a separation is in order. I once proposed separation to Myrta and things got back on track in a hurry.


I don't know if I am being patient or getting walked on.

She may be taking you for granted. IN fact, the affair was the result of taking you for granted. Myrta had the affair because she took me for granted. She felt I would always be there for her even if she was rationing the sex and affection.

only doing it because she had to. I want her to want it to.

You know what? I bet you the 1st time your wife and OM had sex it was awkward, however, they tried again until it felt better and more natural. Ask Myrta about this, one has to start somewhere.

<small>[ December 22, 2004, 08:55 AM: Message edited by: Stan-ley ]</small>