This is in regard to something Stan-ley wrote. Again, I'm just lurking and trying to get a feel for things here, but I don't understand the purpose of this statement:

Do not completely discard the idea of informing the wife of OM. You may want to wait until she is better, but at some point she needs to know she is married to a liar and a cheater.

It seems you follow such a specific pattern here for affairs and the aftermath of, how is this anything less than just plain vindictiveness if there is NC and has been NC since DDay?
I know I've questioned the reasoning behind informing others of the BIG A in the first place, and I got some very nice and informative replies with reasoning to back it up. Now, you're telling ArJ to break the rules you set up and apparently live by just so the OM's spouse will know what he's been up to? I'm sorry, but I see no useful purpose in this other than to make her hurt as much as he is. Care to clue me in to your reasoning here?

Care to clue me in to your reasoning here?

From reading in the forum complete truthful NC after D-day is rare. It seems most WWs maintain contact with OM for several months. Therefore, I am suspicious of contact in this case. Arjdad says he can trust his wife regarding NC------- To be honest, I wouldn't.

Bringing the wife of OM into the ball game makes contact a whole lot more difficult. It may also convince a persistent OM that the affair is really over. Otherwise, the affair can always re-ignite in the future. The only problem here is that the wife of OM is ill. Therefore, I can see why anyone would want to keep quiet about the affair. BTW, in my case the affair is a secret---- no one knows. However, OM was not attached. IF OM had been attached I would have called his wife. Even then I thought about calling the ex-wife of OM and my wife got very upset about it.

So the question is:

If your spouse was cheating; would you want a phone call from the OP?

Yes or No?

So where does trust come in? At some point, don't you have to just throw up your hands and put your faith in something? If you want the marriage to be rebuilt and the spark to be rekindled, there has to be trust. I'm not saying it would ever be easy... just the opposite; but, there has to come a time. An affair violates trust in the worst way possible. I understand that, but when does the time come when you quit making it about everybody else and get back to the two of you?
If my spouse were having a continuing and ongoing affair, my answer would be yes. I would want to know. If it was over and something in the past, I can't honestly tell you I would want to know. Call it denial or whatever you want, you can't look forward if you're always looking back.
I think generalizations are also a mistake. Just from going by what "most people" do, you rationalize that a given person will do the same. I don't believe you have any way of knowing what ArJ's wife will do, as you have know way of knowing him or her either one. I can tell you every personal detail of my life right now, and you'll be no closer to "knowing" me than you are at this moment.
I don't happen to think everybody fits the same mold and that every person/couple will respond to the same advice. Relationships are not cookie-cutter perfect, and I can't imagine any two being the same. It seems to me like you're making everybody try to fit the same mold, and that makes me uncomfortable.

myrta,-- yes it was early. MC went well, thanks for asking.i don't think she would mind if i sat closer, i just wish she would initiate it. i don't want to seem needy.tonight if i get the chance i will sit closer and see what happens. play it by ear....arjdad........stan-ley, we have lost romance and spark, and it did happen long befor the A. i would love to hold her hand always, and snuggle in bed everynight, hopefully i will get the chance to improve in this area. so do you think i should suggest to her that i may walk out if she doesn't make some effort? i just want her to want me back as a husband in every sense of the word think that would snap her back to reality? i still think about waiting til after christmas? thanks for the input from a fellow BS, i appreciate the input,..arjdad

ycantubtru, i kind of see your point on what is the reason to tell om's wife, it seems it would just hurt her, BUT, like stan-ley said, would you want to know? what if you found out years later, and other people knew before you? i know it would hurt, but i would want to know. i also agree with you about trust. i feel like if this is going to get better and move forward, i need to come to a place where i can trust her. from things she has said in MC, i do. it is not easy, and i sometimes question whether i should, but i know i have to.i also agree with you that you can't generalize, and that everyone is different. BUT, i greatly appreciate stan-ley's input and opinion, he has not guarenteed me anything, he is only giving me his advice and opinion. sometimes i agree with him, and sometimes i don't, you don't have to take all advice, individuals must each work on there own feelings. what worked for stan-ley may not work for me, but it might.i need all the options i can get. i appreciate your concern as well, and if you have any input or advice for me, i would be glad to hear it. by the way, welcome aboard. what brings you here? hope it's not the obvious....thanks,..arjdad

So where does trust come in?

You are 100% correct. At one point one must trust. In fact I have decided to trust my wife. However, if you read the posts from my wife you will see that she is completely out of the fog; at this time she is trustworthy. However, I believe one cannot trust a foggy wife. Foggy wives will do strange and evil things, they are not themselves and will lie. At this point Arj's wife is not out of the fog. She could be having contact and this would do nothing, but to increase the time of withdrawal and leave the seed for re-igniting the affair at some other time when things calm down.

If my spouse were having a continuing and ongoing affair, my answer would be yes.
Good to know!

If it was over and something in the past, I can't honestly tell you I would want to know. Call it denial or whatever you want,


I pondered this philosophical point and you don't know how many times I wished I had not known. In my darkest moments I felt it would be like going to heaven to live in the dark and to be completely ignorant of my wife's double life.

Of course, the affair may have continued for several more years and may have eventually ended. In the meantime I would have dealt with a very mediocre marriage where my wife was avoiding intimacy and affection. Then, several years down the road after OM was gone my wife would have considered the idea of getting emotionally close to me once again. Did you read her posts about where she was post D-day? When a WW is in the affair she is emotionally connected to OM and DISCONNECTED from the BH. Would you want to live like that as a married person? How could the wife get close to the husband if there is an abysm of lies and deceit in between. How could she ever open her heart if she actively betrayed her spouse for so many years? The honest truth is that it would be impossible to achieve intimacy even after the OM is gone. The only way to regain intimacy is by revealing everything and to start again brand new.

I think generalizations are also a mistake.


You are correct. Many of my points are flavored by my preferences. SF frequency is not the same for everybody. For some is once a day and for other it’s once a month. If everybody is happy, no problem!

Relationships are not cookie-cutter perfect, and I can't imagine any two being the same.
You have a point, however the mechanics of affairs are very similar in nature. Now that here I challenge you to read the new stories that come along as well as some of the old ones. It is always the same story----------- lots of similarities---- watch and you will see.

<small>[ December 22, 2004, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: Stan-ley ]</small>

ArJdad--I am glad you had a good session with your marriage counselor today. Did she offered any new ideas for you to do with your wife?
I hope she did!!
ArJ--yeah, do that, sit a bit closer to her, brush your body against her while "sleeping" and see what happens <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> . Like I said, you never know if she will like it.
Have you mentioned again, she joining us here? Just reading and nothing else?
Interesting input YCanYouBtrue putin your thread. Dont you think?
But I dont agree with my husband ArJ...if you know for sure there isno contact betweeen your wife and OM, there is no need to tell his wife.
I know that misery loves company" like they say, but if she is sick and there is no contact , no need to do that!!

Myrta


Take Care....

myrta,--i just had a talk with my wife. i ask her if she felt like she was willing to try. she said she was. then she said she didn't know what she was supposed to do or say. i said "reach out to me, and let me reach back". she didn't really respond to that. i told her we both need to start trying to meet each others emotional needs, again, not much response. the talk did not go like i had hoped, but i guess it was not all bad. i told her that if we both decide we want this to work, it can. and if we don't then it won't. i told her it would not be easy, would take alot of work on both of our parrts. i told her that i know i have said i would never be the first one to leave, but i can't go on like this forever. not much response, i was hoping for a little fear from her if she thought i might leave. i ended the talk by giving her a hug,[she did hug back somewhat], and telling her "let's just keep doing what we have ben doing, and have a good christmas" and she said ok.i said then after the holidays, we will see where we are at.i wanted her to get the hint that we could seperate, although i never came right out and said that.i told her we have alot at stake here and a lot to fight for and she agreed. i asked her if she would go on a date with me over christmas break and she said tes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .i guess she is still foggy, and inw/drawal. i asked her about NC, and she assured me there has been none. and i believe her. she just seems so confused and doesn't know what to do. suggestions anyone?..arjdad

myrta,-- also i sat closer on the couch tonight and held her hand, but she did not seem as receptive tonight as last night. and i did mention in our talk her joining us here if only to read. no response. and i agree, no need to tell his wife, tho i think i would want to know.thanks for being there,...arjdad

ArJ-dont get discourage because the talk did not go as you thought it would. Is a very slow process. After talks like that, I used to get a bit scared and retract a bit, but then, it settles in your sistem again. Just keep on doing little things,sitting closer, holding her hand,etc. It takes time for her body to feel receptive to you again.

YOu are very sweet and a very good patient husband. she has to see your efforts and appreciate them. Dont worry, she will come around!

Do you want my e-mail address, since tomorrow night ,for 24 hours MB is going to be down?

Take care

Myrta

myrta,-- i am trying to not be discouraged. she just seems kind of lost right now. shrugs her shoulders and says she doesn't know what she is supposed to say or do. i almost wish i hadn't said anything, but i told her i just wanted to tell her how i felt. i also told her i have felt a little resentment about her working so much. but with the situation, i understand why she is having to work long hours. i will keep trying to do the little things, i know she can see them and notice them, i just don't know if it is affecting how she feels. and yes, if you don't mind, i would like your e-mail address. ok if i give it to my wife and try to talk her into talking to you?..thanks..arjdad

ArJ--Its very hard to know how to act in front of our husbands. We dont know if one word is going to be a wrong word to say. So we rather, not say too much, until things are more stable. Its normal. Give it to her and see if she e-mails me, and she and I can exchange thoughts.

Take care

Myrta

<small>[ December 25, 2004, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: Myrta ]</small>

myrta,-- thanks for your encouragement, it means so much to me. i wille-mail you later, so you will have my e-mail as well. don't take it personally if wife doesn't e-mail you, i really don't think she will, altho MC told me today that wife needs to talking to someone other then MC every other week. so i guess maybe the eoson she doesn't say much is because she is afraid? just don't know what to say? i just sent her a long e-mail and told her if she would take one step towards me, i will take nine steps towards her.i also told her i did not mean to threaten or manipulate her when i said i couldn't go on like this forever, but i can't. i told her ily, and please lets give this M another shot. was it a good idea to e-mail her ? thanks,..arjdad

it is late here, i gotta get some beauty sleep. i will check back tomorrow. g"night all...arjdad

Arjdad:

I am concerned. You described your wife as being detached---- almost like a zombie. She does not seem to be motivated and is absorbed in her work on the computer. This must be heavy-duty withdrawal with a hefty fog surrounding her. I still think she may be in contact with OM. If she works at the computer she may IM (chat) with OM while you sleep. If this is going on then your marriage recovery is not moving forward at all.

Arjdad: Myrta who was a highly cooperative and motivated WW was in contact with OM regularly and denied this to me on a daily basis. Foggy WWs are unreliable Arjdad! Please check this angle!

I agree one has to trust! I now trust my wife, but she is out of the fog. In retrospect, I should not have trusted a foggy WW. Ask Myrta and she will be the 1st one to tell you how convoluted and bizarre it can be in the midst of the fog.

good morning all, i am off work for a while and getting ready to take youngest d to eye dr. appt. we are letting her get contacts, she is very happy and excited about that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . i have been thinking and i have a question i would like all of your input on.the wife still seems so distant, like she is still in heavy w/drawal, and says she just doesn't know what to say or do. how should i respond to this? i told her we BOTH need to start trying to meet each others EN'S. instead of w/d, could it be guilt and awkwardness keeping her from moving forward? i thot about telling her that i knew it feels awkward and uncomfortable, because it does for me to, but we need to work thru this stage. should i tell her that? i also still wonder if she just doesn't need more time. i guess we are going to get thru the holidays like we have been doing, and then re-evaluate the situation. don't know what else to do....buttercup, you out there, i'd like to hear your thoughts to.thanks, arjdad

ArJdad- Good morning to you too!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I have to agree with my husband somewhat ArJ. I think you wife could still be talking with OM online!! Thats why its so hard for her to re-connect with you. Even is she does not talk to him as often, thats going to deter her from being receptive to your love and attention. And she could feel guiltier, because you think she is in NC and she could still be.
You have to put SpyWare in the computer like my husband did, and find out the truth!! My husband could tell you how! Give it a thought Arj. Even if it hurts you, you have to know where you are standing with her withdrawal, with her fog. OK?
Talk to her, look at her eyes, see if she looks down when she talks to you, signs of lying.

TAke care

MYRTA

http://www.kmint21.com/keylogger/

arjdad:

Spying is dirty business------ certainly not a pleasant thing to do. However, if not for key logger I would have never discovered the affair. You may feel dishonest by doing this sort of thing and quite often the WW will call you dishonest when they find out. Of course, the latter is rather paradoxical.

In any event, these programs simply record keystrokes. Therefore, you can find out secret passwords to email. Some may record what is typed in chatting, but I am not sure if they all do. IN any event these programs are easy to install and run secretly. My wife’s OM believes that our computers are monitored and I don’t think he will dare to write or IM. That is another positive benefit. It puts the OM in a precarious situation.

I stopped using key logger, but Myrta knows I can always install this program again. Once you fully trust your wife and the marriage is on track key logger becomes useless.
In any event if a WW wants to cheat she could always use the computer in the public library or an Internet Café. There are no guarantees in this business, but in the foggy stage you must do whatever you can to save your marriage.

There is hope Arjdad! My wife continues to amaze me on a daily basis with her turn around. She now has a clear mind and can see everything in a different light. I am amazed she even recommended key logger to you. Do not lose your motivation to make the marriage work. There is another FWW named KIWIJ who was determined to leave the marriage and now she is just like my wife.

If you find out there is communication you will have to handle this.

I enclosed a site where you can download a logger for free.

i don't know what to do! she is so much smarter than me on computers, i am fairly illiterate on them, that's the truth.do yoou think i could do that myself with limited computer knowledge? i know a p.i. that told me he has a guy that could do this kind of thing for me and the wife would never know. but she is really smart on computers.one thing you said that really troubles me myrta, last night when we were talking and i ask her if she had had any contact and she said no, she was looking down. she didn't look away from me and look down, she was already looking down.don't know how to take that. although i honestly do not think there is any contact, i think i will ask her again tonight and ask her to look into my eyes when she answers.i know she is able to lie to me and be convincing, but after things she said in MC, i don't think she is. MC thinks she has not had contact either. .....stan-ley, it is funny you would encourage me to not lose motivation and not to give up, because i am down today, and that is how i was thinking. if she doesn't want this to work, why should i? i know i am just whining here, but sometimes i think it would just be easier to throw in the towel. i do love her so much, but it has to be a two way street. i think maybe i should have waited to talk to her until later, but it is to late now. i guess i am back to just trying to be patient.last night when i told her thatif she wanted to make the M work, it could,she said "you make it sound so easy" i told her it was not easy, and that this whole thing is certainly not easy for me. i wish i would have told her that making the decision to TRY, was easy.anyway, thanks for the encouragement,...arjdad

back up one, this is my second post in a row. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> myrta, have you heard from buttercup? i hope she is all right and i didn't say anything to offend her. hopefully, she is just busy with holiday things. i tried to send you an e-mail, but our carrier appears to be down. i don't think my wife will e-mail you, at least not for a while, because she is so busy with work. i wish she would. maybe you could e-mail her first? don't know if that is a good idea or not. i am confused, but determined to have a good holiday, at least for the kids sake.maybe i won't talk with her about it again til after the holidays, she assured me today that she is not going to keep working these insane hours. i am looking forward to our date, but don't know what to do/expect? sometimes i wish i didn't love her so much, it semms it would be easier to just give up. but i am not going to do that yet. thanks for listening, arjdad