ArJdad- You can do that with no problem. My husband can tell you on an e-mail if you like. I am sure you can do it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
ArJ-I hate to tell you this, but I think your wife is having contact still. She might not be talking to him on a daily basis, but she is still talking I think. You have to really press for an honest answer. It is expected, actually, we FWWs keep contact for a bit after DD. The important thing is that she can never have any actual enconters with him or physical contact again. But the phone or computer contact has to end ASAP!

Dont be down, ArJ. you are doing fine, you can do this <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . My husband felt just like you not long ago, and he is doing so much better now. We watch tv together, we laugh together, we make love, we are connected again. Patience and NC from your wife is essential though.

Good luck on talking to her tonight. Look at her deep in the eyes, even if you see a flicker of something, that means she is not telling you the truth.

Take care.

Myrta

myrta,-- i still don't think she is in contact, but i will ask her again tonite. i know that it is a common sign when the WW gets angry when asked about contact, and i am afraid she will be angry. that doesn't mean for sure she is lying, but i know it is a red flag. i will let you know how it goes, by e-mail if the MB is down. but at least because he is so far away, i know there is nothing physical. but i agree, if there is ANYcontact, it has to end.should i ask her again tonight, or wait until after christmas? thanks for the help,...arjdad

Arj,

Do you really have to ask her? I'm just wondering here. You have a feeling in your gut, I've always trusted my instincts as there usually right. I've known my WW for 10 years, I don't even have to ask her when I need an answer like this, all I have to do is pose the question and look at her and I know. I'm sure the same is with you, do you really need an answer? Of course it would be nice if she would tell the truth. But what is your motive here? Getting her to tell the truth or just finding out so you know?

Just wondering, Native

native, thanks for the input. i have known my wife for 23+ years. and you are right, i can usually tell what she is thinking and whether or not she is lying. but since she lied to me for 15 months, i know now that she can. we were even in MC for the last year while it was going on! i guess my motive is that i want her to tell me the truth, AND finding out so i will know. if there is still contact, i feel like we are wasting our time in MC. also, i know this can never work out if there is contact. but ultimately, i do believe she has had NC. thanks for your input, and feel free to offer up more advice/concerns....arjdad

Well I know what you mean as far as wasting your time in MC. WW and I have been doing IC since shortly have our Dday, meanwhile she continues to do what/who she wants. So I also believe that it was a waste of time. I have since turned to my church leaders for help and strength. I've basically let WW go and she can do what she wants. When she moves out I will be in Plan B and if she want to go to Plan D then that will be her choice.

I hope that the man upstairs will change both our sitchs very soon, but if that doesn't happen I KNOW he will take care of us BS's.

Native

native, i am not sure if i should refer to her as a WW or not. unless she is lying, she has had NC since DDon oct.19. i really believe her, but i do wonder if i should. the OM is 1500 miles away, and they both know they coul;d't be together, even if our M's ended, because of kids involved. she has said she is willing to try to work this out, i just don't see much effort. but you are right, the man upstairs will take care of us. i know D is not in his will, but i also know that he gave us our free will so we can make our own choices...hopefully, our wives will wake up and make the right choice. thanks for the help, and good luck, arjdad

Arjdad:

This is serious business------------ I will tell you the same thing Jl told me. Your wife was in love or may still be in love with OM. She did not have sex with OM; she made love to OM. She was or is emotionally connected to OM and not to you. Ask Myrta, that is the only way she could have participated in the affair. This was no game. If you don't do the right thing you may lose the battle. You must be certain there is NC. I don't care how you do this, but this is your No. 1 priority. You know that going to MC once a week is not going to do it. Your wife needs to be isolated from OM. Otherwise, you are spinning your wheels.

Don't rely on the fact that there are kids involved and therefore she is going nowhere. WWs are capable of packing up and living. For some time--- when Myrta was in withdrawal I expected her to pack her things and leave the house. It happens all the time and you must anticipate. The way to anticipate is to make sure there is NC----- there is no other way.

In my situation I just got lucky and OM was a loony with stupid plans for the future and very little income. This OM really wanted to build castles in the air. He was no marriage material and my wife recognized this in the middle of her fog. However, I am worried by your description of your wife. I am concerned----- please let us know.

BTW, Myrta still has some indirect contact with OM and reads his profile online every day. It is hard to give up contact and WWs will cling to anything to quench their addiction.

<small>[ December 23, 2004, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: Stan-ley ]</small>

stan-ley, --i know this is serious, and you are right. i must make sure there is no contact. i am just trying to figure out how to do that.she is really smart on computers. i guess i will have to figure out. i don't think she can lie to me looking me straight in the eye. if there is NC, i need her to start working on this thing. i just think i should wait until after the holidays. it is only one more week. i guess i have also been thinking that if she doesn't want this to work out, i can survive without her. i don't want to, but i could do it. i don't want to rush. since they say fog and w/drawal is different for everyone, couldn't she still just be in w/drawal? do you think i am wishful thinking? i know her better than you, and i sure hope you are wrong. but i appreciate your concern, and am taking the advice very seriously. if she is in NC, any other ideas to help her out of this w/drawal/fog?.. thanks,...arjdad

Spyware and private detectives? Why stop there? I've heard bamboo shoots under the fingernails can pretty much help you find out whatever you want to know.
You've all said yourselves that trust has to come into play at some point. When you believe in your heart (NOT what other people are telling you) that NC has been established and is working, why look back? A wound can't heal if you keep ripping off the bandage "just to make sure."

<small>[ December 23, 2004, 09:14 PM: Message edited by: YCantUBTru ]</small>

ycantubtru, ...i agree with you. i think i am just being paranoid, but given the situation, i suppose that is understandable. i appreciate your input, because that is how i feel too. i am trying to trust her, but it is hard. i do believe deep in my heart that she is being honest with me. i know others are skepticle about this, and i appreciate thier opinions also.they have been thru this before. i know we are all different.although i believethere is NC, i wouldn't say it was working. it has been 9 weeks and i have not seen much progress. but again, everyone is different, it may take my wife longer to respond. i think i need to be more patient.i have got time, i am not going anywhere. and trust does have to come into play for me, because she is so much above me on computers, she could hide stuff on there i couldn't find anyway.i guess what i am saying is that i trust her99%, but paranoia is driving me crazy. all- in-all, i agree with your sentiment, why look back? especially, if she would come around and show some effort. sometimes, i think she does.thanks for the input,...arjdad

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A wound can't heal if you keep ripping off the bandage "just to make sure."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Great quote! I trust my wife now, but at 9 weeks she was still talking to OM. Most WWs maintain some contact to tidy things up with OM and to take care of their own grief. I understand this reasoning and it may not always be malicious-------------------- of course others just want to stay in the affair. If Arj's wife went into absolute NC at D-day she is a rare bird and needs to be congratulated!

Shortly after D-day I mentioned to my wife that I always trusted her and never doubted her. Myrta then said that this blind trust from my part was an actual mistake. For instance I knew she was a friend of OM and trusted her because I thought there could never be any romance between them. Others in the board also verified that this type of blind trust is not a good thing and that when one really cares about a relationship one is always paying attention to such things with a critical eye.

BTW, those who have little trust in their spouses tend to be folks who have cheated in the past. For example men who are known womanizers tend to be very jealous of their wives.

If you read the board you will see that a large number of BHs in the board were folks who trusted blindly and never cheated before.

Arj: If I had been a tad insecure about my marriage I would have discovered this affair before it got off the ground. There were plenty of clues which I ignored due to my lack of insecurity in the marriage. OTOH, my wife always checked on me. Even while in the affair she made sure I was not cheating on her.

The use of Spy-ware (it seems our friend is familiar with it) has a limited role in discovery., Once the goose is out there is no point in using it since no one wants a marriage that depends on spying and PIs.

If you are 99% sure there is NV-- so be it and move on. Lets see how your wife reacts.

I mentioned the strong emotional bond in my prior post so you do not take this lightly. Shortly after D-day I only thought my wife had an innocent fling for sex and no emotional involvement. Wishful thinking, the emotional involvement is much more dangerous.

ArJdad--Hi, I just got back from the mall, doing some last minute shopping. I am soooooo tired!!!

I know this is very hard for you to accept, but you have to go to the root of this. YOu have to know for sure if she is still in contact with OM.

Yes, there has to be a time that you have to trust her again, but that time has not come yet for your relationship. YOur wife has not given you any indication, that she is working in this marriage and there is no contact. Withdrawal is different for everyone,yes, but after 9 weeks of supposely NC, she should be a bit more talkative,a bit more receptive to you, and she looks by what you say, that she is not.

The NC is very hard to achieve right after DD. The tendency is to break the contact right away, because you want to let go slowly, because you want to make sure the OM is doing ok, and also we the FWW need it too. So saying to you that there is NC and actually doing in it is two very different things.

ArJ...I had talked to Buttercup online a few times, but I dont know why she has not posted to you again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I know tonight she is having a big dinner at her house and tomorrow night too. So she has been very busy with the food preparation. Maybe she will post after tomorrow.

If I e-mail your wife, should I send it to your account?

Take care..

MYRTA

stan=ley, i completely agree about the emotional involvement being more dangerous. because of the great distance they only met 3-4 times, but became emotionally attached by talking daily on the computer. if she went into NC on DD, and i think she did, it was probably not her choice. i talked to OM on the phone and told him i had about 400-500 pages of thier e-mails, and even a picture of them together. he ask me what he could do to help me. i told him if he cares for my wife at all, he must never have contact again. i told him that she would be e-mailing him telling him it was over and that they couldn't have any contact[she and i had already agreed on this] and he said " i will save her the time, i will e-mail her right now and tell her it is over" he sent her an e-mail that was 3-4 sentences long. he told her it was over, it was a mistake, he was sorry for the hurt, and that if she tried to contact him, he would delete her e-mail without opening it. now i know he knew i would read that, so he could have been trying to please me, but i also KNOW THAT HE DOESN'T WANT HIS WIFE TO FIND OUT.i don't think he would risk it, even if she wanted to. he knows i had a p.i. follow her, that is partly how i found out. he must think that i could hire the p.i. again. i know if i was in his shoes, i wouldn't take the chance.anyway, when she read his e-mail, she lost it. started crying and sobbing saying "i don't even get to tell him goodbye?"i sat down by her on the floor and told her this is what happens when people have affairs, everyone gets hurt. then i left her alone to cry while i took care of the kids. stan-ley, i do apprecaite your concern and your input, but i do believe she is in NC, so i am trying to move on and see how she reacts. but i am going to ask her one more time and make her look me in the eye. if she can do this, then i will believe her. i hope i am right. again thanks for the help, and keep on with the advice and ideas, i need all the help i can get, arjdad

myrta,- i am glad to hear you finished your shopping. me and youngest d did that today. i am done shopping <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> iknow i have to be sure of NC, and i think i am. also, i do think that she is a little more talkitive and receptive then she was at first. remember when i said maybe i was looking for to big of a sign? looking back, i would say that she seems more comfortable around me,altho there is still a long way to go. we joke and laugh and just talk more in general then we did. i am trying hard to meet her EN'S that she will let me, like conversation/quality time, and avoiding all LB'S.i like the way it makes me feel to be a little more thoughtful and considerate towards her. i know i have to be patient. trying to just have fun as a family thru the holidays. also, i am sure buttercup will be back, i know everyone is so busy. thanks for encouraging, ..arjdad

arjdad,

I just finished catching up on this thread! Sorry I haven't gotten here before now. I've been on the go since 10:00 this morning! Yeesh! I had my daughter and husband both sick, and we still ended up hosting this dinner party. He even went to bed in the middle of it (feeling so sick) and his family still stayed! I entertained them and then cleaned everything up. I'm exhausted, but they were all grateful and thanked me for a wonderful time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Okay, my input here... I'm going to give you my scenario at 9 weeks, which differs greatly from Myrta's!! I was still in withdrawal, fog and DEEP depression. I was talking to my H, but not very receptive. I wasn't even guilt-ridden at that point. I was focused on what I lost (my ex) and on not having things tied up neatly, which was driving me absolutely insane! At that same time, I was trying to carry on and fulfill my daily duties as a wife and mother.

So, I didn't interact too much with my H. As a matter of fact, I tried to avoid him. I had lots to think over and I wasn't ready to jump back into things with him until I was sure of myself. He gave me lots of breathing room. Only once in a while did he peer over my shoulder while online, or even ask if I contacted my ex. He trusted me a lot, but I think that he was clued in by my behavior. Had I been speaking to her, I probably would have been much more emotional (sad/happy...). Instead I was numb. Is that how your wife seems?

I have to say though, that even from D Day on, I was ready to be somewhat affectionate with my H. I was aware of being happy that he was still in my life. So, I'd hold his hand or hug him, but I wouldn't go out of my way to be affectionate with him, because I feared leading him on. Is that how your wife is?

If she's avoiding you, if she's extremely distant, then I might worry a bit. If she's very happy or sad, then I might think she's in contact with her OM. Does she talk about him at all? Is she the one who ended it? Is she okay with how it ended? Are the loose ends tied up in her mind? I talked to my H about ALL of those loose ends. I told him every step of every time I tried contacting my ex. I didn't want him to have any more surprises, and I got his input. It was helpful! He supported my wanting a better ending, but also told me when I was being too obsessive about it too!

I know that you're probably confused now, since she "lied" to you about the A. You don't know when/if to trust her. The best way to handle it is to talk to her. Be her friend again. Let her confide in you. Don't dictate. Don't question too much. Just be there. It'll all fall into place. I hope that she'll be honest from hereon out and that she'll begin to confide in you. You have too many years together to just throw that away. I think you have a good chance of recovery if she's willing to try.

Hope that helped! My head is killing me (too much champagne! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) so I'd better hit the sack. I'll check back for you tomorrow. We're taking the day to ourselves and just relaxing! Take care of yourself!

CC

(MYRTA: DO YOU REALIZE THAT YOUR EMAIL ADDY IS POSTED ON THIS THREAD AND YOU DIDN'T ERASE IT??)

buttercup, i am glad to hear from you. i hope your family will not be sick on christmas morning! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> let me address some of your comments. actually my wife doesn't seem to be trying to avoid me, and she doesn't seem to be real emotional. at first she seemed numb, but know i think she does't so much. she definately doesn't go out of her way to be affectionate, but she doesn't pull back when i hug her or hold her hand. in today, before she went shopping with oldest d, she came into the kitchen and gave me a hug and kiss on the lips good-bye. i don't think she is aviding me or extremely distant, and i don't think she is overly happy or sad.she did not like how it ended. i talked to him on the phone,told him she would be e-mailing him to end all contact, he said i will save her the time and send her one right now. it was 3-4 lines long, basically, "it's over, sorry for the pain, and if you try to e-mail me, i won't even open it before i delete it." i realize he knew i would read it and could have just been saying that, but i also know he doesn't want his family to find out.anyway, when she read it, she started sobbing and saying "i don't even get to say good-bye?" about 3 weeks past DD our MC ask her if she thought it would make this easier if she could talk to him one more time to end it. wife said "no, because then i would have to go thru these last 3 weeks again" right out of the book, and she has never read it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> that is also partly why i think she has maintained NC. i really do feel like i can trust her now, and i am talking to her more and trying to be her friend. i also agree that we have a good chance of recovery if she WANTS it. i hope you feel better today, i enjoyed your day relaxing, it sounds like you deserved it! thanks for your encouragement,, arjdad

arjdad,

Hope you had a good day! It sounds encouraging to me that your wife reaches out to you, even if it's only for a hug or kiss. That's a big step in my book!! Believe me, I thought about those things 10 times before I did them, because I didn't want to lead my H on, and because I felt so guilty too. So, I think that she's coming along.

As far as how her A ended, hmm, she's in a similar position that I was in, and she seems to be handling it MUCH better than I did!! I really felt so depressed about non-closure. Had I been the one to end it, I think I would have healed much sooner! She was the one who said that she wouldn't be contacting me anymore, and she wished me well and said she'd miss me, but I really didn't get to say goodbye either. I learned from my therapist and from many posters here that those neat goodbyes are rare. Sounds good though! I craved it for a long time!

I had a cozy, but kinda icky day. My H and daughter are still sick--sicker today! They stayed in their bathrobes all day and slept on and off. I had a bad migraine, but tried to slowly do my work around here to prepare for the crowd tomorrow! I'm proud of myself-I made some things that I hadn't done in years, because normally I'd be so busy with talking to my FOW. I made this french log cake from scratch. It's a hard thing to make, but it came out great! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I'm hoping that we all feel better tomorrow! My son felt okay today, so he went off to the family Christmas Eve get-together (my sister picked him up!). He was happy! I'm waiting for him to come home now.

I'll have tons more to do tomorrow. Can't wait to see the kids' faces as they open their presents. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> I'll try to check back in at some point. Hope you have a good day (and everyone else on this thread--especially Myrta and Stanley!). MERRY CHRISTMAS! Enjoy it!

CC

buttercup,--thanks for the encouragement. i think maybe things are looking up. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> time will tell. i am sorry you had a migraine to day. i feel your pain, i get them too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> . it sounds like you did some good cooking, me and our 6 y.o. son baked cookies for santa[ tho i cheated and bought the ready to cook dough]. he didn't seem to mind, and i KNOW santa likes them <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> after we tucked him in bed, our youngest d helped me wrap his gifts from santa. every year we save the sunday comics and wrap all of our gifts to each other in those. but the gifts from santa are real christmas paper. kind of helps hold the illusion. i hope you all feel better tomorrow as well, and we are looking forward to the kids faces too. the son has alot more gifts under the tree, but for the girls,[teenagers] nothing says i love you like gift cards <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> last year, we gave them gift cards, and let them invite a friend ,and the wife and i took them to the mall. we took walkie-talkies so they could go off w/out us, and the wife and i shopped some and had a nice visit at the food court. it was fun..... i also hope that you and yours have a good day tomorrow. and stan-ley and myrta, i hope you guys have a great day too. i don't know how i would have got by these last couple of weeks w/out you three. thanks again and happy holidays,.......arjdad

good morning all! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> i hope you all had a good christmas day. mine was alright i guess, it is hard to read the wife sometimes, but i think she had a good time. i will tell you more later, just getting ready to go to church now. just wanted to check in and say hi. talk to you later, arjdad

Hey arjdad,

Glad your day sounded somewhat good! Let us know more when you can.

My day was nice. LOTS of work (especially when H was down for the count, so I had to do it all alone)! I nearly cancelled it a few times, but forged through. It always amazes me when I think I didn't do my best and then my dinner guests rave about the food and atmosphere. I'm doin' something right! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

We had 21 people here, and it was relatively calm. Then more relatives and friends popped over. Nice. My daughter and I even wore fancy dresses (mine was a gown). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Towards the end of the evening, lots of people got changed and then we all took turns playing DDR (Dance Dance Revolution). It's a Playstation game, and you follow it on tv and dance around on the mats. Very fun! Even the "old people" (ahem, me!) took turns. Great to burn off those calories from dinner! I vow to do it every night with the kids!

So, other than my H feeling terrible, my daughter still coughing and my head still hurting, it all went well. H was upset that he didn't get to go out and buy me any presents other than Godiva chocolates. He instead put cash in my stocking. Good nuf! He wanted to get me a Kitchen Aid mixer that I've been wanting for a year now, so I'll go out and get it soon.

My nephew and niece slept here, so it was a nice diversion. I'm honored that they still want to spend time here. After all, they're teenagers! Nice to see them spending time with their cousins and with us.

Hope you all had a blessed Christmas. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

CC