should i just point blank ask her if she wants this marriage to work out? i bet she would still say "i don't know". i just don't know how long to give her to decide what she wants. i have made it clear to her, that it is up to her, because i am not going anywhere. that is why i think she may need a push, so she knows i won't wait forever. thanks for oinput,

arjdad

buttercup,
something else you said caught my eye." you will botheventuallyneed to put in the time and effort to rebuild your M". that is so true. i am there now but she isn't. that is the whole problem.
arjdad
p.s. we have been in MC for over a year. am i going to push her farther away if i "push" a little?

arjdad,
I'm running out the door, but I wanted to answer you before I leave. I didn't know that you were in MC for a year! Wow! Do you discuss your needs and any timeframes? Does your W discuss her needs or her plans for your future together?

On one hand, you sound like you two are doing well. I hear you talk about little intimate gestures--hand holding, hugs, etc. But on the other, I hear her sounding very busy with work and not there for you. If it's only a few months into recovery, I could understand her being in withdrawal and fog. It takes time, and we all recover at different rates of speed.

When you and she are getting along, maybe you could discuss things, such as your needs or if she has any plans for the future. I'd tell her that down the road, you think it'll be good to set some time aside for the 2 of you, to rebuild, go on dates and get to know each other slowly, again. Hopefully she'll want to do that!

I'm sorry you're hurting and you're questioning things. Hopefully you'll get your answers soon! Try not to worry too much. Most of what you say sounds somewhat encouraging--all you need is time and more affection. TTYL!

CC

Arj:

Have you heard of paralysis by overanalysis?

For God's sake is JUST A CONVERSATION WITH YOUR OWN WIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Stop making excuses! You are the king of conflict avoiders. I will have to send you to Pepperband.

If I need to talk to my wife i don't wait one second Arj. Please do it. I promise you she is going nowhere! And if she is planning on divorcing you she will do so whether you talk to her or not. In fact not talking will make it more likely.

<small>[ December 28, 2004, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: Stan-ley ]</small>

stan-ley,
i know you are right and i WILLtalk to her tonite.i guess i need a push to give her a push <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> i am pretty sure she doesn't want a D, so i am just going tokeep it short and simple and see where she is at. wish me luck, i will keep you posted.
arjdad

buttercup,
while we have been in MC over a year, our DD was only 10 weeks ago. me nor our MC knew that she was in the middle of an affair, so obviously MC was a waste of time until the A was discovered. we have discussed EN'S with our MC, but so far as far as our future, she says she is willing to try, but she doesn't know if she "wants" to. i hope that is fog talk, she hasn't said that in a while. i am talking to her tonite, stay tuned........


arjdad

ok, so i talked to the wife tonight for about an hour. i feel better now.she says she knows what she should do[keep the M alive and fall back in love with me], but she doesn't know how to get there from here. she also told me she is trying. she just doesn't want things to go back to what they were before. i told her i didn't either, that i wanted to make things alot better then they were before.i told her that i hurt, and that i am lonely, and she genuinely said she was sorry.i told her about my EN'S, and that i was not trying to pressure her, but i wanted to let her know how i feel.i again told her that i could/do forgive her, and she teared up a little bit. then i told her she needs to forgive herself. i told her i think she is a good person that did a bad thing.we talked about moving and changing churches and everything else.i can't remember all details, but it went pretty good and i feel a lot better <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> i asked her what she needed most from me and she still said "time". i think that we are making progress, just not as fast as i had hoped. i asked her if she thought she should be going to IC and she shrugged her shoulders and said, "i don't know whaT we would talk about, our MC has to drag stuff out of me" i said thats why you need to go, so she can drag it out of you and maybe show you how to communicate on your own.i asked and was reassured of NC, so i know that is not an issue.the big thing is,she wants to be with me and be in love, but doesn't know how to get there. anybody have any suggestions? please let me know. i am feeling so much better after talking to her, thank you guys for encouraging me to do so.[especially stanley <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ] i wish i could feel this good and positive all the time. thanks for being there everyone,

arjdad

arjdad,

Boy, I'm up late tonight. H crashed a while ago after taking cough medicine with codeine!

I'm SOOOO happy for you, arj!! Good job! You were so worried for SO long! Don't you feel better?? Your W is right where I thought she was, just by your statements. I'm glad. "Time". Yup, that's what we told you, right??

The only other thing I'll add, is that IC was the best thing for me. I got to talk about ME and the A. It made me realize why the A took place. It made me more aware of things for me! It would be a relief for her to go. Tell her it would be for her. When she's ready, she'll want to go!

Good job, arjdad! Now, keep on doing what you've been doing. You're getting closer every day! There will be pitfalls, but we're all here for you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Nite!!

CC

buttercup,-
thanks, i do feel better. i told her i love her because i make that choice and she said what does that mean? i told her love is a choice, a concious decision, and she said "i hear people say that[love is a choice], but what does that mean?" any idea how i should answer that? that was probably the worst part of the whole talk, because i couldn't explain it.
and yes, you were right, she still needs more time, tho tonite i actually thought i could see the fog lifting and maybe caught a glimpse of my old wife <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> it is a good night indeed.
thanks all,
arjdad

arjdad,

Rough nite on the MB, huh?? I'm just following Stanley and Myrta's stuff and the thread on Dalton Dad, hoping, praying that he's okay!! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

About you... I'm happy for you! I'm so relieved, as you must be!! You "did good", as my grandma would say! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

As far as the "love is a choice" phrase, sorry, I can't help you there! I believe that love is in the heart, and I go with that. My love for my H never died, and I'm only working to make it better. That's my choice.

As far as your W's fog possibly lifting, gosh, that would be great, but you're only, what, 10 weeks into it, or 8 weeks?? That's pretty quick! But if you keep up with the communication and with giving her some space and time, and support each other, you'll be fine sooner than you think! You're doing a great job. Just try to relax now, ok?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Nite!!

CC

ARJDAD---It seems that you are doing pretty well. That was a good conversation you had with your wife. I am glad you had it. Well, now she knows what you want and expect from her. She can think this over, and she will do what she feels is right for "her" Do not pressure her into doing anything. It does not pay at the end, Arj.

I think she loves you, but it is hard to "forgive" ourselves of what we did. The shame is really inmense and overwhelming.

Arjdad...if you truly, sincerely forgive her, please keep on acting that way. Dont keep on giving her "guilty trips" down the road. That does not help and it will only increase her resentment towards you. Truly, and sincerely forgive her with all your heart. If she ended all contact thats a huge step for recovery. And remember Arjdad,,,,what OM does is his doing, SHE has nothing to do with his actions of Today!!

Take care

Myrta

myrta,

i am doing good. i am glad we talked to her to. now i will be patient and wait for her to think about these things. i always try to not pressure her.

i do think she loves me, and i think the fog w/ d may be lifting. i gotta go pick up d from b-ball, check back later

arjdad

hello all,-
i am back. our girls went to spend the day/night with my wife's mom, so i took our son to get us both haircuts.then we went bowling. the bowling alley was not very crowded, so we ordered cheeseburgers and fries and took our time bowling 2 games while we ate <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> . it was a blast. he loves to bowl[or do any sport/game for that matter].then we went to dairy queen for ice cream <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .after that we stopped at the store and renred movies, we had asked the wife if she would be interested in watching a movie and eating popcorn tonite with just her 2 "boys". that is the plan for tonite. "finding nemo [again] and hopefully holding hands with my wife on the couch.i am looking forward to that.i feel much better today,and sometimes think i can see a little light at the end of the tunnel. the wife is so busy tho, it does get old. that is why i took son out today. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> i am hoping that if things seem this good now, maybe after the holidays, they will improve faster.
last night she said basically, "i know what i should do[stay here and fall back in love with me], i just don't know how to get there from here".any ideas on this one? she says she has been unhappy for a long time, way before the A, do you think she really was, or did she convince herself of that to justify the A? i never had a clue she was unhappy until now.

i know you all have your own problems to deal with, so thanks for being there for me. stan-ley and myrta, i have been following your thread, and i think the best thing i can do is tell you to do what is right for you two. what works for some doesn't work for all. stay united and do what you both think is right, and it will work out . i am praying for you both. [as well as everyone else on this board]

buttercup, thanks for encouraging last night. it was a rough night on the board.

arjdad

arjdad,

Sorry! I've been away for the afternoon and evening. H and I went to a holiday party! Whee! LOL.

Anyway, my suggestions? Do what you've been doing! You're doing fine. Slow and steady, man! Don't jump the gun and think too far ahead. Just follow your heart, talk when you feel you have to and don't let it build up! You're doing great! This is like starting over, except that you have a few advantages! You already know most of her likes and dislikes and you just have to get to "know" each other and fall in love all over again! You'll get there!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I'll ttys. I hear my H calling me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> LOL

CC

arj,

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> thanks, i do feel better. i told her i love her because i make that choice and she said what does that mean? i told her love is a choice, a concious decision, and she said "i hear people say that[love is a choice], but what does that mean?" worst part of the whole talkany idea how i should answer that? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As a matter of fact I do know the answer. Love is a verb, it an action, it is NOT a feeling. When you took your wedding vows you said you would love your W for better or worse, sickness or health. You did not promise to "feel" in love, you promised to act in a "loving manner". That is why it is a choice and that is why you make such a commitment. Love is something YOU DO.

So explain that to your W. Now as for her feeling in love with you which is a different matter, first I would recommend Harley's book "fall in love stay in love". Next allow me to make an observation.

Consider the stories of the affairs posted here, and surely your W's affair. What happened? Someone listened to another person. Empathized with them, helped them, talked with them, comforted them and oddly enough the "feeling of love" developed. Here is the odd thing, it is doing this for the other person that one develops these feelings. It is not so much the person doing these things for you although it helps.

If your W wants the loving feelings, then the best thing she could do is to start "loving" you as in the verb to love. In turn you should do your level best to do the same thing and surely no LB's.

After a period of time she will start to "feel" love for you. It comes from her doing what she promised and that was to love you and take care of you, just as you promised her. It is a very nonlinear thing, but it does work.

So first explain that what the love she commited to really means: it is a verb/action. If she does that and you respond in kind, then gradually the feelings will come. They always do if her efforts are received positively by you.

Now you know why Harley pushes for both spouses to meet needs, this is a loving action. It is love in its purest form. He also counsels to act as IF you feel love although you might not. It is sort of fake it until you bake it, but really he knows that the act of love will lead to the feelings of love. It is not the other way around which is the common thinking.

I cannot love a person if I don't feel love for them, is actually wrong. If you read the Bible, the constant talk is of loving your neighbor your spouse, God, and this is the verb love. Not the feeling love. That comes later.

Does this make sense? I hope so.

God Bless,

JL

buttercup,=
i hope you two had fun at the party last night. it sounds like you did.thanks for the input, that is what i think too, slow and steady, keep doing what i am, and i show her affection and give her hugs when i can.
i am taking the girls shopping all day, so i won't be around after 12:00 much. i will check back later tonight.
ttyl.....arjdad

JL,
thanks for the help! that is what i thought, although i obviously have trouble getting my mouth to say what my brain is thinking. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> your response really does make sense to me, i just hope she can see it. i don't know why she wouldn't , she is a smart lady. she has always been the brains in the family.
before i found MB, our MC suggested a book called "the five languages of love" by gary chapman. ever heard of it? i bought it that day and have read it several times. it is very similar to MB principals. after the wife and i talked the other night, i remembered that there was a whole chapter in this book called "love is a choice". i marked the chapter, and plan on asking her to read it.

i have been doing my best, and honestly do not recall any LB'S in at least 8-9 weeks. i feel like i am bending over backwards for this M and for her right now. no matter what happens, i will be a better man one way or another.

i think while i am with the girls shopping to day, i may try to pick up the book fall an love stay in love and read while they shop. gotta go, thanks for your input, come back anytime

arjdad

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It is sort of fake it until you bake it, but really he knows that the act of love will lead to the feelings of love. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And what happens if that doesn't work? What if whatever draws one person to another (attraction, chemistry, "spark", what have you) is gone and it never gets "baked."

What then? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Are you looking for a guarentee? I cannot offer one. But let me say that if someone once loved another person it is not as improbable that they can fall in love again.

But, you asked "what then?" Well, first you have done what you vowed to do, Love your spouse. You also done what you vowed to do, and that is stick with them through thick and thin. And if they do decide to leave, you are left with the knowledge of two important things: You gave your best effort to your spouse AND you have learned how to truely love and be steadfast. The latter knowledge will help you more than you realize in the future IF your spouse does not feel this love.

If it is you that is leaving as I don't know your story and you are waiting for a "miracle" of love to wash over you, then you will probably wait for quite awhile. If you are willing to "work" at it you begin by "loving" your spouse as you promised and that includes treating them with respect, listening to them, talking with them, and being their friend. You will find that if contact with the OP if there is one in your life is ended and you focus you will start to see things in a new perspective. It may not change you, but it just might more than you realize.

The best you can do is really try and then evaluate.

God Bless,

JL

arjdad,

Thanks! I had a good time at the party. So did my H, although he's still feeling a bit under the weather.

What JL said was good advice. What you've been doing sounds good. Keep it up. Remember to talk when you have things on your mind. It worked out the other day, right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

CC

buttercup,-
i have a question for you.[or anyone else who has an opinion]. you know i have been taking it slow and easy.i am trying to get closer to her physically w/ out sex.when i hug on her or cuddle up next to her, she does not pull away. at one point, about 4-5 weeks ago, i ask her if i could give her a hug. after hugging her, i ask her if it made her feel uncomfortable. she said no ,what makes me feel uncomfortable is the question. so since she seems somewhat receptive to my affection right now, should i keep doing that w/out asking? i don't want her to feel uncomfortable or pressured. i don't think she would tell me if she did feel that way unless i ask. i admit that sometimes she seems more open to it than others.

also, we have been talking alot more, just visiting really, and i find it hard to know what to talk about. it seems all we have in common is our kids.any suggestions?

one more thing, this has been bothering me for a while. what if the only reason she is with me is so she wont have to tell anyone? i am not worried about the OM, i am just worried about us breaking this M up. i told her the other night this is not about me and the OM, this is about me and her.the OM is completely out of the picture, we just need to fix us now.she said she just doesn't want it to be like it was before. i said , me neither, i want to make our M better then it has ever been.

we are going to my bro. and SIL house tonite for new years eve. i hope to get a kiss at midnight. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> i know she will kiss me, i just hope she wants to. i am thinking of telling her that i hope 2005 will be our best year ever as a M couple. but i don't want her to think i am pressuring her. i know i am rambling, thanks for listening,

arjdad