The ones here with marriages between "normal" people who have made mistakes... where MB principles can and do help the marriage survive and thrive-- this isn't aimed at you.

But there are others of us whose partner is not a normal human. We "love" and are controlled by a disordered personality. Most of us don't realize what we're dealing with. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> It's those that might find this article useful. It begins:

"The trouble with falling in love is that the fall can terminate against the cold concrete of betrayal. Pain replaces promise, cynicism flowers in place of confidence and hope flees on wings of misled desire.

If both of you gave it your honest best, and it failed to work out, then it's the kind of pain that can heal in time. The experience can even increase the chances for future relationship success. But there are times when the object of your lost affection intensifies the pain- times when someone who looks like the perfect choice turns out to be the perfect heel. And the damage may not be easily undone.

Unlike men that can honestly struggle with their own uncertainties and confusions about a relationship, and recognize the part they play in creating problems and conflicts, there are other kinds of men that see love as a game and you as their pawn. In this cruelly covert contest, cunning is their watchword, deception is their fix, and control is their high...."

Note from the website: "This series of articles is condensed and modified toward a Young Woman's perspective, from Control><Counter-Control: How to Identify and Overcome Controlling Men and Women- At Home to Corporate Battlefield".

Althought aimed at young women, it's worth a look from everyone in a controlling relationship.

I'm just learning about this stuff so can't say if the writer is on the mark or not. Please post your comments. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<a href="http://www.obgyn.net/yw/articles/RomeosBleeding_TOC.htm" target="_blank">ROMEO'S BLEEDING:
"When Mr. Right Turns Out To Be Mr. Wrong"
By Roger Melton, M.A., L.M.F.T., CEAP</a>

I have been in a relationship with a disordered personality for over 20 years. We just don't know when we first start these relationships that these people have these problems. Most disordered personalities begin relationships while on their best behavior.

It's kind of irrelavent whether these are "bad" people. My husband has many fine qualities...but he is still disordered and therefore not safe.

For me, my own personal healing began when I could start examining the reasons I was attracted to that type of personality. (my own childhood, my own personality, etc.)

So true. Once we realize we're attracted to a controller the next step is addressing "why".

Came across the term "self-abuser" last night and am wondering if I'm an emotional self-abuser.

I highly recommend this book "The emotionally abusive relationship" by Beverly Engel for starters.

It has a really great plan for "action steps"
to understand why we allow ourselves to be abused,
understanding our patterns, unfinished business, and how to take steps to stop the abuse (whether or not you stay in the relationship).

I think most abused people would rather try to find a way to make their current relationship better., and sometimes it's possible, sometimes' it's not.

Thanks DH. I'm heading to the mall today and will pick up that book.

haywire,

While it is not the best article on BPD/Narcissistic personality, the author brings up some fine points. Now that I am in the middle of divorcing my BPD WW , any insight into why I permitted myself to be sucked in by this brilliant chameleon helps me understand MY OWN PATHOLOGY. A point that I have found in other articles/books is the ability of the BPD to manipulate their partner into a mindest called" crazy making". I have done , said and acted at times in a manner that is completely atypical of me. THAT is the most terrifying power the BPD can exert over you. I am trying very hard to deal with the emotional chaos my WW has caused within me, while she goes blissfully on to her next relationship.

I would also recomend Sam Vaknin book. Especially chilling due to its autobiographical nature.

Cymanca, do you know the name of the Vaknin book? I'd like to pick that one up today too.

Yes, I too want to understand my own pathology. I'm ready now. I am drawn to these people and need to know why. Besides my H, there is my closest life-long friend...She is BPD, but has stepped to the plate and has been managing it with treatment and counseling for several years now.

Malignant Self Love. It is available through Amazon

Sam Vaknin has a website as well...he's a Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

They often have symptoms of more than one disorder. My husband exhibits BPD and some Narcissistic symptoms as well. So does his mother and brother.

If you're dealing with BPD, I'd recommend "Stop Walking on Eggshells Workbook" by Randy Kreger.
Whether or not you're divorcing, you still need the info on how it has affected your life.

Have you heard about "gaslighting" (making the abused feel like they're the crazy one) and projection (accusing the abused of having the characteristics the abuser hates in him or herself)?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> They harm others because they feel entitled to hurt people. It is not a matter of moral right or wrong to them when they inflict harm. It's only a matter of believing that they "have the right." And if they always believe that right is on their side, which they always do, then any harmful act is always justified.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This was my first H in a nutshell...whether it was physical, emotional, or mental harm.

The strange thing is, I NEVER saw that side of him until AFTER we were married. He put on a facade for me while we were dating. No man was ever as selfless...or caring...or concerned as he was about my well being. He would have plucked the moon from the heavens for me...all I had to do was ask.

The "charm" was out the window once we got married. I feel that he knew what he was doing...and it was sociopathic. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

He set me up for the kill and I got out before it came to that. He was FURIOUS that I would dare to even think that I could leave him. He thought that I didn't have it in me...and never missed an opportunity to tell me. I proved him wrong.

committed

bump

Well,
I can certainly see why the author is having trouble getting his book published!
it's VERY sensationalized and scary. it taps into fears, and is strong in an attitude of no mercy or compassion.
I can understand why. it's written strongly to convince people in volved with controllers to get out, now, or that they should be more scared than they already are. I think it's probably good for some readers to hear that their lives could be on the line, that the controller is the anti-christ.
But it isn't true.
So, I dunno.
My H was very controlling and we are still come out of that previous relationship of controller and co-controller. I definitely identified with the article that talked about spouses who take on the behviors of their controllers and become the thing they hate. I have acted like my H on numerous occassions-- at first it was conscious because I wanted to show him how ridiculous he was, but later it was like he gave me his sickness.
I'm out of that now.
Also, I thought the cyclical nature was good. Our M has had SO many cycles-- honey mooning, and then tension build up, and finally, nuclear meltdown.
And the sex stuff was key too.
How controllers are good lovers because they instinctivelt have you pegged, feels like they can read your mind.
When I think about what attracted me to this relatioship it was the feeling that half of the communicating was done for us because he read me so well. Why I stayed when it got sour is because I beleive he's a good man, essentially. He's also messed up. He knows this, and is changing.
And the part about changing his psychlogic appearance at the drop of a hat... my H did that as well.
We recently had a talk about the cylcical nature and how I don't want to start another cycle. The honeymoon phase is tempting becaus it feels so good, but I said I wasn't going to "go there" because I know what lies around the next corner.
We talked about the controller/controllee (or co-controller?) relationship we used to have, and I said I liked certain things about it-- it felt very close. Like he was looking out for me, knew what I as doing across the room from him at times, whtout even looking.
I"m NOT nuts for liking that. Heck, I'm not even flawed for liking that.
Who wouldn't like that feeling of being so cared for, so in tuned with?
But I have to give it up. It's not for me any longer. and even I have a different relationship again someday.... feeling that close I'm afraid would only scare me, or feel inappropriate.
So- that is my 2 cents on the subject and the articles. Hope it helps.
Lucy

Thank you, Lucy...

I was looking for the word to describe why I didn't like that article, and you found it.

Sensationalized. I can't stand the way this guy writes. It sounds more like a sales pitch than a sharing of information.

dewt

Lucycakes, it doesn't sound like your husband's controlling nature comes from a personality disorder. It is easier to change the dynamics of an abusive relationship if there is no disorder behind it. Also, my husband's infidelities were one more symptom of his disorder.

My husband was horribly abused, both emotionally and physically during his childhood. His parents had also been abused. He grew up in Europe, and his parents were children during WWII, in an occupied country, and that left scars as well.
So there is much more to heal from in a situation like that. Interestingly, he maintained for years that they were "good people", and pretty much blocked out his entire childhood. Now, his father is very sorry for what he did, and his mother, who is also BPD, refuses to admit her part. To both of us, they are sad, unhappy old people, and we treat them with kindness. My husband has let go of his anger towards them, but the intense hurt still remains.

Haywire was referring to "disordered" people. Those with BPD, NPD, Psycopaths, etc. Personality disorders are a way for a person to cope with things that are unbearable and still survive. In addition, some of these disorders may be sometimes genetic, according to the literature.

It takes a lot of effort on their part to change, usually years of therapy. Most often, they don't change, because they don't think there is anything wrong with them. My husband is working on it, but he will probably never be completly "normal".

As their partner, or former partner, there is lots we can do to change the way we deal with them, and protect ourselves. With personality disorders, it is almost always in our best interest to separate, at least until they have got some therapy. We can not save them with our love. I use to think that is I loved him enough, it would all be better, but to my husband, love is something that brings pain with it.

I have learned to stop thinking of my husband as "good" or "bad". He is simply disordered, and as a result of that has done many very bad things, and hurt everyone close to him. It's my job to take care of myself and my children. It's his job to get help for himself, and repair his relationships.

DH99--
It's strange how family of origin has so much to do with it. I really beleive my H is the product of his parent's and the instability he was reared in.
Your H has been through a LOT, and his folks... My heart goes out to them. And it comes from the War. That is very interesting. How very sad how war can effect us even this many decades since.
Sometimes I think it's harder to know my H doesn't have a disorder becasue like you said, you no longer look at your H as bad or good-- it's the disfunction of the disorder and he DOES bad things.
I have to see that the actions my H chose were choices he made, and patterns of erroneous thinking he wasn't aware of. He's changing his actions now, but the thinking is harder to change. He's doing a good job tho, He knows it's going to take a long long time. He's been at it for 7 months now, and is lightyears from where he was. I'm happy for him. I expect he'll live a good life, and I hope I get to along side him, as his best friend and partner/wife.
You sound so aware, and in tune with things as healthily as you can be. Good for you for seeing it the way it is. That must be very freeing.
Are you divorced or getting one? Is he in therapy or trying to get help?
You're all in my thoughts.

dewt-- yeah, I didn't like the analogies the author used-- many of them were over the top, or too extreme for my tastes.
I do think I'll read Catch-22 tho... boy does that phrase ring familiar, huh?
Mostly, I'm working on communication my boundaries and upholding standards for myself. When I feel the inkling to behave badly, I realize it's not me who acts that way, it's my choice to let the disfunction created by the situation in or not.
It's funny that the author said most spouses who show similar conduct as their disordered mates usually stop the behavior within 2 weeks of being away from their spouse wiht the disorder.
I've felt that happen. It's hard to be living wiht him sometimes and feel it actually pulling at me. Isometimes don't know if I'llhvae the strength to resist it. Sometimes I don't. But it's onlyt been a little while since I started being aware of all of this.
Best of luck to you,
Lucy

In my husband's family, the abuse started even before the war. My husband's grandmother was abusive to his mother, and her other children. There is a history of abuse and violence in that family, who knows for how long.

Although we are not living together, we haven't filed for divorce partly because we own a business together. Other reasons too, but life can be complicated, can't it?

It is much better that your husband does not have an actual disorder. I didn't mean to imply that I don't hold mine accountable for his actions. I do, but I see that he is limited by his disorder, meaning that I have come to terms with the fact that he may never be capable of being "non-toxic" in any relationship. He truly does not think like a non-disordered person. On the other hand, he has come a long way in the last few months, and he really wants to get better.

By the way, Hitler is considered by most modern psychiatrists to have had "Borderline Personality Disorder", if that gives you an idea of just how
awful these people can really behave.

He has been to therapy, but isn't currently...just reads a lot about it.

I originally came to Marriage Builders when he started an affair two years ago. I was devastated, but more than that I was really angry that he could treat me so badly for so long, and then top it off by cheating on me. Oddly enough, he had an affair with a girl who is also Borderline, and exactly like him (his words). He says that seeing the way she treated him, (raging, etc.), finally made him realize how he had treated me. In looking back, it seems much of the worst behavior was triggered by his major mid-life crisis.

I am so grateful for this website, both for the information on the dynamics of affairs, and most of all just reading some of the very good advice given here to others going through the same thing. How to take care of oneself, how to detach from the pain., and focus on what is really important like my children and creating a peaceful, happy environment for them, things that are especially important for those of us who have been in abusive relationships, and usually things we weren't doing before. I'm the daughter of an reformed alcholic. Even my FOO has done some healing as a direct result of everything I've gone through.

"You can only change yourself". That's still a work-in-progress.