OK, kinda confusing, but the guy I work p/t for now, his W is friends with OW. We all did Scouting together for years. This man knows H and I were separated, because he talked to my H about renter's insurance during the separation.

Well, a couple weeks ago, he said something like: "I understand you might not want anything to do with OW's policies, so just send her to me or the other employee that works here."

That threw me. I have pointedly never talked to his W about OW, because she never asked. I figured OW had told her something, to explain why we weren't friends anymore (OW was my BF), and why OW doesn't go to Scouts anymore.

His comment had been bothering me, so I asked him today why he thought I wouldn't want to do anything with OW's policies. He said because he knew we were separated from talking to my H back then, and that his W had told him that OW told her (confused yet?) that my H was infatuated with her, had a crush on her, and that is why we got separated and that her and I aren't friends anymore.

That really shook me up. Why? I think mostly because it implies that she had no part in it. It implies that she is the innocent victim of some H falling in love with her, so she can't be friends with the W anymore (me), and her DS can't go to Scouts anymore.

I just dropped the conversation with my boss. I don't want to put him or his W in an uncomfortable position, especially since OW does business with him.

It sure is hard to "take the higher road," if that is what I am doing. I really want to call her out for her past behavior. But, I also have faith that what goes around comes around, and she will manage to make herself unhappy enough ~ I don't think she needs any help from me.

SS -

Of course your ex-BF/OW doesn't want to take responsibility for anything. What surprises you about that?

She was not a friend to you, or an honorable woman.

I'm mixed up - did you expect anything different?

believer, I didn't expect any different, really, BUT . . . I still have these feelings about it.

I know they are just feelings, I just need to talk about it. Just need to hear from all my friends that she is just being normal, I guess.

Thanks for replying to me. Silly topic, I guess.

Spidey

Spidey -

It is not a silly topic if that is the way you feel. But comeon - your ex-friend was not a friend.

As you know, I am MUCH, MUCH, older than you. In my life, I have been hit on by many of my friends' husbands. It always made me sick. I've always thought that men are men. But what is wrong with a woman that would entertain betraying her friend or another woman? Yuck.

Yeah, YUCKY!

I think this ties in a bit with my own insecurities that one of my friends would do this to me. Or, I guess, that I THOUGHT this person was my friend. That I feel duped.

She really is the poopy one, not me, huh!

Thanks believer. I always know you have my back!

Spidey

Spidey,

I can see where you are taking the higher road and I am proud of you. I was thinking the same thing just the other day.

I was thinking about how much I hate BJ (OW) and I thought to myself that I must really have some terrible hurt and anger still to even think the word hate. And then I thought you know there really is no reason for me to hate her now. I thought about all the things that she has done to her own life to make it miserable now. For instance, she quit her job so now she is on public assistance and has no money at all. She has no health insurance, don't even know if her son does. She has no heart. She can't have a conscience or she would have said she was sorry at the least to me and my kids. She has lost so much. Respect of lots of people in her life. Respect in herself. She is just one big loser. If they have to make it seem one sided let them. We know the truth.

Lets hold our heads up high and be the better people that we really are in our situations. We love our children and our families united and together. Who cares what others may think. It is what is inside of us that counts, not what others see on the outside.

You know I love ya hon.

HINY

Thanks, HINY. I needed to hear (er, read) every word of that.

Spidey

Spidey,

I'm going to take a different tack here. From my perspective, when you allow this OW to lie and imply that this was all your husband's doing...and that she is really just an innocent victim...you do a disservice to these folks...ESPECIALLY if they do business with her. It enables her to believe she can wreck someone's home, use an organization like the Scouts to promote her own lust and selfishness...and essentially, blame it all on your husband and walk away scot free...no consequences. And no consequences=no change....more likely to do it again.

You can take the high road without allowing this lie to stand. After all...you're not some horrid jealous woman that if your husband pursued her and she wanted nothing to do with him, that you would eject her from your life. If she was really a victim, your friendship could have withstood that. These folks deserve to know a few things:

The kind of person you are...who wouldn't just end a friendship without real cause.

The kind of dishonest and immoral person they are doing business with.

The kind of husband you have who realized HER game and recommitted to his family.

And the OW needs to know:

She can't lie and make you and your husband out to be a shrew and a lecher.

She has consequences just like everyone else.

And that you won't sit back and let her soil the reputation of your family.

How dare she tell these people this....you would NEVER have said anything....and if she hadn't...then I could easily see why you wouldn't want to...but since she has...I hope you will not remain silent.

I think the TRUTH is the highroad....given in the classy and non-dramatic way that I know you can deliver it. I would envision something along these lines: Mr or Ms X, I'm so sorry that you were drawn into this scandal. I'm really very surprised that OW would say anything at all, because I intended to say nothing. However, since she has....I think it's important to speak the truth. OW was my best friend. I trusted her. This was a mutual, romantic and physical entanglement beyond any doubt. She was not a victim, but a willing participant. I am happy to say that it is now over and my H has done the right thing and come home to his family.

star*fish, that is the other side of this coin. All of those thoughts have occurred to me. I too have thought that by remaining silent, I am enabling her to live in her world of denial.

Many many people know. It is my belief that if these people WANTED to know the truth, they could easily have sought it out. I think what I am really dealing with here, with these particular folks, is their own denial. The math is very simple. They know me, have known me and H for a long time, as they were in Cub Scouts when my H ran the Pack.

I think they just don't want to know. IF either of them ever ask me, I will not lie or cover-up. But neither has asked me. Very pointedly not asked me.

I do understand what you are saying, star. Each and every thought you have said has gone through my head already.

Thank you for voicing the "other" side.

Spidey

Hi SS,
(I always wanted to do that.)

I agree with Star*fish. Since they brought it up to you, since she talked to them first........

I think you ought to tell them the truth as Star suggested.

I can see some old wounds are not all the way healed. Will more time fix this, or will you be needing surgery?

SS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I can see some old wounds are not all the way healed. Will more time fix this, or will you be needing surgery? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heck no, all my wounds are not healed! And I don't know if they need surgery, or just more time to heal. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Great observation, SS (great initials!), and thanks so much for posting to me.

For some reason, my gut feeling in this case, is to just sit back and stay out of the whole mess. Just as my friends have said here, there are rumors flying all over the place. Even in their denial, they must have some cracks of doubt about her. Like I said, if they ask, I will tell.

IMO, the FOW has built a house of cards that will fall at the slightest shaking, the slightest breeze blowing by. What I know about her and her life thus far, she needs no help making herself miserable.

Something interesting has happened because of this, though. H feels betrayed, for the first time, by her. He was up, wrestling with his intense feelings regarding this issue, until 3 am this morning. And as he was telling me this, he kept saying that he knows he is "preaching to the choir" about betrayal, because he knows that is how I have felt, about both of them (H and FOW) for almost a year now.

I have sympathy for him. Heck, I have empathy for him. I think he is just now being hit with the enormity of what he almost gave up and let go, for someone who he now doubts ever had true "feelings" back for him. He is feeling manipulated and used. He feels that even though at the time his feelings were very messed up, he didn't try and puposefully mislead anyone (which is his subjective opinion, and I let it go at that).

I think he used to comfort himself with the fact that this thing that happened between them was substantial. I think he is realizing that he put a LOT of people that he loves through a LOT of pain, and it was for something that was never what he thought it was.

Me thinks now I will be having a depressed H for a while. I know it was depressing to me when I realized she was not my friend. I think up until this came down yesterday, he thought she had his best interests at heart. I think he is beginning to realize she's only had HER best interests at heart.

Spidey

<small>[ December 12, 2004, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: Spider Slayer ]</small>

For some reason, my gut feeling in this case, is to just sit back and stay out of the whole mess. Just as my friends have said here, there are rumors flying all over the place. Even in their denial, they must have some cracks of doubt about her. Like I said, if they ask, I will tell.

I agree with those who say the truth needs to be told. The time will come for this to happen, and eventually they WILL start to ask. I think your gut feeling is right on also.

I think it was my mom (or grandma maybe) who used to say "never complain, never explain and never take the blame if it is not yours to take".

Your sitch reminds me of that saying because it speaks of truth being told. (well I never understood the "never explain" part, infact I have no idea where I am going with this LOL)

Have a good day Spidey! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks, Weaver. My Greatgrandmother had a saying on a little stand in her house that said, "Yesterday is gone, tomorrow never was, all you have is TODAY."

I have always loved that saying, and understood it more and more since I have "grown up."

Yes, I think the truth needs to be told, and I think it will be when it is the right time. People cannot accept what they are unwilling to hear. Wow, that sounded like a fortune cookie! LOL

Spidey

Couple questions and a couple thoughts spidey.
1. How are things with hubby RIGHT NOW.

It occurs to me after going back and reading what you've been writing lately that unless I am missing something you aren't talking much about hubby and what you two are doing to really improve things.. back to that shortly.

In another thread, you said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My H is having some depression right now. I thought this would be the hardest time for me, as this is the month that it all "came down." But so far, it is H that each day remembers last year and thinks, "I wish I hadn't done that."

He says he let himself down, and he is having a hard time accepting that the person he always "thought" he was, did not shine through in his darkest hour. I, too, have had a hard time with that. He was very religious when I met him over 15 years ago. He had a very clear set of right and wrong. He is a Scout leader, and the OW's DS was in his Patrol! I feel his actions not only hurt our family, but also this other boy's life, as his mother didn't keep him in the Troop. And I think H also is now seeing all of this more. BUT, he needs to wear it, and accept it, because it is what he did. I'm not going to sugar-coat this stuff for him, or try and make him feel better about it.

I think he sees more and more with time, because if he would have taken it all in at once, he would have gone crazy. His actions were so far out of line with his beliefs. BUT, that is life. Stuff happens.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">His emotions there are what we want to see - his actions were out of line with his values, he's really traumatized that he did not live up to what he thought was his character.

I agree with you that he is totally responsible for this and his being angry with himself is good but...
When you say that you are not going to sugar coat it or help him feel better about it should we read that as: You won't tell him the facts aren't so bad or should we read that as "He deserves to feel like sh1t and I'm not going to lift a finger to make him feel better!"

The former is right, the latter not helpful.

Most of your other posts right now are about side issues - how do people perceive the situation, OW and you. Those are side issues, Spidey. Y'know the difference between OW and your light bill? You have to acknowledge the light bill. It does NOT matter what story OW has given people and frankly? The less discussion of it the better. It sounds like you are more focused on that than what you can influence and change.

Where your H is right now is a pretty tough point in recovery for a WS. At the same point (which was at 6 months after D-day.. his is slower due to the delay in recovery starting and lingering fog I'm guessing) I was nearly suicidal - could never do that but thought about it more than once. Is that something you want to make him feel better about or does he need to suffer a bit more?

You are posting very little info about what's going on in your relationship right now and that's where most of your focus ought to be.

...why don't you come chat about that over on the other place and work on that a bit???

If your husband is now aware that his actions were totally against his core values and you are not there working with him to help him figure out how that happened and how to change that then you are wasting an enormous opportunity - where he's at is the point where WS's either really change themselves or duck the issue and go back to who they were and unlike people's perception of the OW, the direction he turns right now has an enormous impact on your future.

..you did ask for a thunk, right?-

Hi Sidey! I just read your thread. A little late, sorry!

It seems you have reached your conclusions already, but here's what I think. Take it for what it's worth. Also take into account that I spent at least 1/2 of my IC yesterday talking about the rage that has emerged concerning OW, and specifically my very specific revenge fantasy. After describing my fantasy my therapist asked me what my fantasy tells me about myself. I replied, "That I'm an evil BI***?" She actually laughed and then we went on to look at it. I never though of really looking at that fantasy before in order to find out more about me. It was very enlightening. I guess what I'm saying is that I'm not in the most benevolent of moods concerning OWs at the moment. Especially the predatory, screw over your BF variety.

Personally I would do exactly what Star advised. Your boss brought it up to you, so that shows me he at least is not avoiding the topic. If he was he wouldn't have said anything. I would say not to speak up if people didn't know and it could hurt your family. However, if it wouldn't make any difference in fallout for you, well why the heck should the witch be spared? I would be as sweet as can be. I can't say anymore than Star, because her words would be mine also.

Concerning your H's bubble being burst and feeling betrayed by the OW. I have a somewhat similar story. If you remember my H had put our little OW on quite the pedestal. She was the world's best office manager. Absolutely irreplaceable. Funny how she was very adequately replaced within a month by his sister and a fellow employee. Interesting how the new office manager is far superior. Remember that she used to tell H stories about his business partner and then tell H not to tell partner what she said, thus putting a wedge between them. But H thought she was soooo honest. She would NEVER lie to him. He could trust her over me and his friend.

Well this is how his bubble began to burst, and it wasn't overnight. When he fired her they had to come up with a story, so people wouldn't know it was because of the A. The story was that H was not able to afford her as an apprectice because he realized he needed to hire a fulltime funeral director to replace partner who was leaving. This actually would have been the case if he hadn't have been in such a fog. Over the next few months after she was gone expartner told me, and I told H, that people he knew were asking OW why she left. These peole then related what she said to exP. This is what she was telling people. "H lied to me. He made all these promises to me, didn't keep any of them, and then he just fired me." Not exactly the agreed upon story. Then I said to H, "I never told a soul about your crappy behavior during the A, and only told one person after d-day. However, your oh so loving OW is badmouthing you very easily in public." H didn't want to accept it at 1st, but the truth began to seep in.

This is just a side observation Spidey. Let me know if I am way off base, OK? I've noticed you writing lately about the fact that your H and OW screwed in your bedroom, and with the children in the next room. My shrink told me months ago that H's bad behavior during my dad's dying and death, and the OW's presence during that time, will be the last thing I will be able to deal with because it is so traumatic for me. We talked yesterday that if I hadn't have mostly put that period of time on the back burner I might not even be where I am now with H. The A was bad enough to deal with. I'm just wondering if the same thing might be happening for you regarding those extra painful realizations. Have you allowed yourself to feel the anger over them?

I know I can't hate OW indefinitely. It's not good for my spiritual path in life. However, it is where I am right now. I can't stand the "B". I think I need to deal with these feelings and hopefully move into total indifference.

Please forgive me if I am way off the mark here, and just projecting my crap onto you. It comes from a caring heart! CV

Hi SS,

Well, I dont know if I'm on your buddy list, but I had a thought.

It occured to me... do you think your boss was just trying being polite by not getting specific? Maybe he didnt want to upset you? I know it would be hard for me to seemingly 'throw' that in someone's face, if you know what I mean.

I'd also have a hard time going back to clarify...'no, it was much worse than that... let me tell you how I was screwed over...'. Just too much pain for me.

I agree with those who say let it go. The stuff going on with your H is more important. Just my 0.02... - Dru

<small>[ December 14, 2004, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: Drucilla ]</small>

Thank you, CV. I don't think you are projecting your crap. And I know everything you do/say is from your caring heart. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I think I am dealing with the 1 year anni, maybe? I think that is why I am reliving the sexual stuff. December 12 and 14 were both days that H chose to step outside our M, risk losing everything, to have SF with my very close friend.

I am finding that a bitter pill to swallow these past weeks. I am wondering if it is too much to get over. Not just the SF, but then moving out, emotionally and physically deserting me in my greatest hour of need. I have very many DJ's about how he behaved then. I feel he was a selfish teenager, only interested in HIS OWN instant gratification. I wonder if he is the man I thought I knew. Even more than that, I wonder if he was the boy I met, that I grew up with. I wonder if the M and friendship I thought we had was just a fabrication in my own head. Only what I WANTED it to be. Do I like what is left?

Are any of these feelings real? Are they just because my mind and heart are so close to last year's pain and confusion?

Right now, I don't know anything. I am a jumbled mess of yuckiness.

Dru, thanks so much for your post. I consider you my buddy! I don't want anything to do with OW. I don't care what she does or says. My friends and family know the truth. Anyone who knows me knows that I would not make this stuff up to give myself an excuse to . . . whatever. Ditch her, an excuse for mine and H's separation, whatever. That is silliness. Let her spin her web of lies all around herself. I am out of that chaos, and I will not be drawn back in for any reason. That is how I feel today, anyway. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Spidey

Tell your H about your anniversary blues... tell him you need 1000% more reassurance and physical affection from him... go ahead now. Tell him.

This is not a suggestion. Its an order ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Expect this same feeling next year ... but at 50% of the intensity. Every year (if things go well) you'll have 50% less sadness. (than the year prior)
Pep

<small>[ December 14, 2004, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Thanks, Pep. Just did. I am blue! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

(((((((SPIDEY}}}}}}}}} I'll write to you tomorrow, OK? It's late and I want to be clearer when we talk. Just remember, it's OK to feel like crap sometimes. You've been so strong for so long. Maybe you need a little break from being what I like to call the "friggin lighthouse." CV