I've finally decided to ask for help. I can't find any threads similar to my own. Instead of just extracting bits of very helpful advice, I need to lay it all out. Please direct me to the right thread, if you could.

I am waiting on my WH to make a decision...between reconciling with me, going out on his own, or choosing OW. We are in MC and this has been his goal from the start, which was 10/12/04. My goal was to make a new marriage (thanks to MB). I'm still waiting on his decision. NC began 10/19 and was broken 11/22 and 12/01...when OW called and they mutually declared their love for one another. On 12/5, WH booked hotel reservations in Las Vegas for our 16th anniversary in February. Here is where I keep tripping over myself.

I've been living through loved ones' eyes for decades, and I'm trying hard to stop. Plan A is my kinda life, and I've been doing it since 9/25; but boundaries are a foreign language to me. I now have two formed--you can't speak badly about my kids unless you've lived with them for 18 years (minimum); and you can't love OW and take me to Vegas, especially since you haven't made a decision yet.

He's living at home, in his own room, but SF restarted two months ago, though he said he didn't want to because then he would be using me. The old me says "Heck, go ahead!" I have the deeply ingrained habit of "If you're happy, I'm happy!" which I thought I conquered when he was happy with OW and I wasn't. It's back. It took me until 12/10 to say to him that I appreciated the thoughtful gift, but would have to turn down Vegas at this point because it was too confusing to me.

He said he understood and that's been it. In my Plan A, I've promoted RC, SF, no LB's (twice in two months), upping Domestic Support, way upping Admiration,, stopped the crying, and have begun to hear his laughter and enjoyment again when we're together--which leads me right back to living through his eyes.

I read the Five Love Languages, Dance of Anger, and have purchased HNHN and SAA. Is this not in recovery, but not in affair, waiting for his choice sound crazy to anyone? I was the over-everything in our marriage; overemotional, overfunctioning, pursuer, and my LB's were over the top, too. He's the under--distancer, silent treatment, avoider and longsuffering counterbalance. We're 18 years into this and he's been the only person I've ever trusted to love me in my whole life (including parents, etc.) besides my kids. I've been disrespectful of him by dominating our marriage, so his decision is also a symbol to himself that he has always had choices and made them, though he was far more comfortable not realizing this, and holding resentments against me for making them.

Now, my desire is to make a new marriage, with explictly stated ENs, goals and boundaries. I am just having a hard time seeing him for who he really is now, instead of who I thought he was all these years. Along with his A, he says he is working on his dishonesty--that he's lied throughout our marriage, both to himself and to me, by withholding his thoughts and feelings and then harboring resentments. So, my absolute belief in his honesty is gone, along with the certainty of his love. Both could be rebuilt, but I'm beginning to slide into the, "Do I really want him? He's really a lot of work!"

And am I being unreasonable? Recently I said I was stumped on whether to call him whenever I was thinking of him to say ILY or IMY, or emailing him or keeping it to myself. He said, "Write to yourself, instead." He was being helpful. It took two days for me to realize how angry that made me...I've been emailing him for three months with questions about how he felt during my A, or what he feels now...and he replied to one in Oct...and hasn't checked his email since (OW doesn't have a computer...they work together...no need). Now, I've kept this hurt to myself because I always over do stuff...too many emails, too long (could ya tell?) so why would anyone care to read them? Do I want someone who won't talk/read/communicate? Really?

Any help will be greatly appreciated. I'm giving myself a little slack in the embarrassment department for having to post, and not doing it well, but heck, doing it anyway!

Thank you.

can someone help me...I'm new and don't know how to get around this site...is this a chat room or just somewhere to post messages

lovinganyway, it sounds like you and i have something in common. my w had an A, therehas been NC since DD. but she is not sure what she wants to do. she knows she cant be w/the OM, she just isn't sure if she wants to be w/me either. that sucks. i think plan a w/patience is the way to go if you want to rebuild your M. good luck, arjdad..................................................kathy, you can post and respond here w/ questions you may have. there are lot's of people here who can help you better then me. good luck to you also, arjdad

LovingAnyway...Ive been in a "husband making up his mind" situation for a year now. He is in NC but he has still not commited to working on our marriage. I don't post as much as I used to but when I do it is here or on teh recovery board. I understand that your situation is really frustrating. Just keep employing the marriage builders principles and u will see progress.

How can u be sure there is NC if he is still working with the OW?

It sounds liek u have made a really fine start to your MB programme. Keep it up and keep posting.

arjdad --

Thank you so much for replying. Has your WW given you a timeline? My WH said he would commit to staying in the home until 1/1/05...but no deadline on decision. He's in MC to work on his own issues, and his decision, and C says probably be two years for him to do this. Plan A has been working--he has reached for my hand twice, and crossed the room once to touch my back, in the old, loving way. That's a lot of progress. He keeps saying that things feel "old" here...and he doesn't like it. He's playing games all night on the computer, watching a lot of sports and sports online, and pretty much staying away from conversation except for once a week.

I'm an instant person--change to fit, fast; want resolution right now; fix it, fix it now! Learning patience, separateness and self-control are like living with three ugly stepsisters inside me. Ick. Really. So I know I have to conquer those realities, but can't figure out what on earth he's thinking. Asking gets a lot of repetitive statements; "I'm working on my dishonesty, self-destructiveness, and learning who I am." He's transferring stores in the next week and a half and has shared how much everyone says they'll miss him. He says it's for personal reasons and hasn't disclosed, nor have I exposed, because he now says he could get fired, though that's not what he was saying two months ago. His first date with her was mid-August, and he says he wanted to go to counseling so he could find out why he thought he loved me for 18 years and fell in love with her in two weeks.

Anyway...I guess it's all the unknown facing me; myself, him and the future. He moved back in for his son (DS 15), and says now it's to give him the chance to love me again. That was stunning...maybe progress? Because before that, it was for S and not having enough to live on his own.

Do you fight the feeling of being used, Arj? I do. My Taker/Giver have been having a field day with me, and I've won no ribbons.

Debbra --

Thank you very, very much for posting. We do have similarities, though I wonder what my situation would have been like if I'd actually left. Did it give you any perspective on your life, self and H? I was set to move out 6/1 of this year--started pressuring my H for honesty and openness 5/03, and used all of my bad behavior as leverage to get him to talk to me, which he said he was incapable of. Didn't move out because WH said he wanted to, but didn't. Until I discovered the A and asked him to 9/17.

I look forward to hearing from you both, if you have the time.

An update and some questions...

I went a little more crazy with the waiting into the 70th day. I thought I was really out to learn true patience, endure the wait for his decision with grace and a good Plan A. Seemed to run out of that, off and on, and couldn't decide if I was making myself crazy, actually crazy, or sane in a crazy situation. I would still love to know how arjdad and Debbra felt or feel, as the time goes on and on.

I asked him yesterday morning what his decision really was--maybe I got it wrong, after all--and he said it was to either give the marriage a try or not. At noon, his statement was, "I just can't see what the right thing to do." This was the same statement he said 10/5...and I felt really nowhere.

Last night, over dinner, I told him I thought his decision was between divorcing me or trying to work out our problems and then deciding whether to stay married, once a new relationship could even be defined. He said, yeah, that was it. And that he'd decided about a week ago to stay and work on it. He said he wasn't going to tell me for awhile yet, but soon, because he didn't want to face my dissatification with his effort.

My day of relief isn't today, as I'm feeling very resentful that he would wait to tell me, however long, because "I don't see how it would change anything for you." And it bothers me greatly that in making this decision, which he says really wasn't a decision, but that it evolved, was because he didn't see he had any other choice.

So, I'm feeling punished. I want to ask anyone out there about this type of behavior, because maybe I am crazy, but I see this as cruelty, something that definitely crosses an important boundary of honesty and consideration. I'm just developing these boundaries, so I'm not sure what I am to do about them, especially since I hadn't explained them to him until last night. Funny, he said, "So you have these boundaries and standards and now I have to make my own?"

I think there is still fog...he won't stop working with the OW until next week, so I am choosing to work on the marriage, accept him at his statements, and see him with new eyes for the next six months. I know I have a lot to work on in myself, and that I still have the choice of, after really seeing him for who he is and not who I have made him into in my head, whether he is someone I choose to love. Now that I know I've always allowed myself to love whomever loves me, for the most part, I can let go of that debt that I tend to pay and really love with a full heart. My choice.

Am I on the right track? Does anyone else see our spouses as punishing? He says he hopes to have feelings for me someday, but for now, he's going to do this to give himself a chance to be a better father to our kids and a person he would like to be. When he gets over his anger at me, he might just want to meet my emotional needs, or not, but that ultimately, he does realize that he'll have to consider me above all else, but that that will be a long time from now.

I know it's my own dependency on being loved for so long that makes me feel resentment for this stance...he said it so harshly and the entire talk was without any kindness or openness from him. Guess that will come later, maybe, if I keep being respectful and calm and honest.

Our pattern was that I would do something he didn't like and he would distance himself, withhold what it was I did, and resent me for it until he felt like talking to me again. That's where the punishment feeling comes in...but I don't get to know my crime or duration. Guess I should ask him, huh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Just looking for a place to understand, endure and grow from.

And, is this recovery?

When did your H's affair begin? Has he had previous affairs to your knowledge? How did you discover his affair?

How long did your affair last? How long has it been since you had contact with OM? How did your affair end? Confession? Exposed?

Any drug use? other addictive behaviors? Any abuse?

Thanks

Pep

Hi, Pep…

I'm really thankful you want to know…I've read a lot of your posts.

The straight stuff:

I don't know when his mental affair began with his coworker, but his first date with her was August of this year. He had an internet EA in 1992, but no, no others that I know of. I was told of his date in advance, but was discounting it as just an experiment on his part because during that time, I was seeking to replace him and the guilt of trying to do that made me really supportive. Within three weeks, I broke out of my fog (yes, realizing you are blowing up your life can wake you up, but I was slow) and asked to reconcile. He didn't answer my request with anything, but two days later, they broke up because she didn't want to be a "homewrecker." Then a day later, they got back together again, secretly, until I caught her calling him. I don't know how to categorize the "discovery" because there was one, but the way it started was with full knowledge of the "date." He has never confessed to having A, and I did expose him to family.

My EA began in 9/03 and became a PA 11/03…and as twisted as this sounds, I told my H about it every thought of the way, asking him to talk to me instead of OM, but he refused (full of anger and resentments over the years) and I used it as a strong arm, trying to force him. EA hunkered along with no merit about three months for me. NC 6/04. So, yes, confessed prior, during and after? Never exposed me, but I did to my friends, but only a couple of months ago.

No drug/alcohol use (you would think so by the way I acted!!) but I can say I have an addictive nature and am a smoker (H is nonsmoker). I believe we have had a marriage without a belief system, mutual or otherwise, and followed typical patterns of emotional abuse…distancer-pursuer (I'll let ya guess); overemotional and underemotional; overfunctional and underfunctional. I can truly say he's been my addiction in a very corrupting way and I'm trying to recover from him so that I can be a respectful person. (No physical abuse.)

Seems like by saying all this I can see how childish our patterns are and that would explain why I feel punished by him. He believed I had withheld sex to punish him off and on, throughout our marriage.

Now I feel rather bad about taking up board space on myself and my whining. I really don't want to do unhealthy things anymore and fear my own choices and beliefs because they've been so wrong.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

How are your kids holding up?

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He believed I had withheld sex to punish him off and on, throughout our marriage.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, did you? Honestly, this is very likely considering the emotional soup you two have created.

Pep

Yes, I did, with intention and unintentionally. He was the type to think about sex once in bed...whether we had talked, seen each other for days or not. He would stay up late on video and computer games while I read in bed, then come to bed and make a grab. Those days, I said "no" and felt a lot of guilt over the years for not doing my duty. Many times, I consciously did my duty (however, it was never detrimental to me), anyway, but held over resentments because, again, if I made a grab for conversation, he was likely to sigh heavily and say, "What do you want now?"

I get that my emotional needs were really needy...the quanitity I was asking for was astronomical; but to go weeks at a time without much more than me telling him what was scheduled with the kids, the family, and when to show up (which he always did). He was always happier when I'd have friends and other things to take up that huge requirement. Unfortunately, these included male friends online. He enjoys "his alone time" quite a bit and believes his parents' marriage suffered because they spent all their leisure time together.

Since returning, he has said he can't do more than two hours a week of conversation--so we do mostly recreational companionship, which we really had left behind us since dating before we married. I find that this fills a hefty portion of my need for attention, but yes, I'm small and weasely and want more conversation than one night a week. And to not feel (which is coming from me) that talking with me is like a trip to the dentist for him.

I can really see more of how my Taker is so childish by answering your questions. I've stopped all the LB's and he says he feels more free to talk to me, but still doesn't like to. A lot of these traits are specific to me...he doesn't talk to anyone; he says he's scared of me, and I had to realize that he was scared of everyone; so, understanding who he is not in relation to me is really important.

I think the longest spell without SF before last year was three weeks. That was really long. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I missed your question about the kids. One is in the service overseas; the other two live at home. My MS is courteous but distant with his F because of his own resentments, unrelated to the A. My YS immediately began bad behavior in school and outside school, including suspension, shoplifting and the first time drinking. He is doing better for the last few weeks, but we've had a lot of mom/son time since he's been grounded through Christmas. And he's happy his F is home, and F has been playing catch with him for the first time in a few years.

All this has taught me to ask more relevant questions of him, instead of the easily passed-off "How was your day?" We talk about feelings, thoughts, boundaries, and friendship instead of just school work. He has a strong belief that his F puts him first in his thoughts and that he's the joy of his life. That was pretty great to find that out.

Recently, I read Lillybelle's post on thread killers. That gave me the gumption to try this one more time.

I was honest in my post here and felt rejected by everyone because I am a WS and a BS and am sensitive to not saying anything about my life so I can side step sympathy. My mother died when I was 8 and my stepmother repeatedly told me, "Don't you dare use that to get sympathy from people...that's pathetic." I state that here to show that I have this fear of sympathy, but must go past that because I have an even greater need of understanding and positive action in my life. I'm asking for some direct wisdom for my situation.

On the Recovery Board, I read often of the WS coming back and saying they love the BS. I don't have that. When I got the "I don't love you, I don't want to love you, and I never loved you" during the affair, I consoled myself with the fogspeak. We're still in MC, doing our recreational companionship and talking once a week, but he has steadfastly claimed he has no feelings for me. He said it was most likely because he has so much resentment and anger toward me that he can't get to it. That's what I believed in myself when I was wanting out before his affair. Once I got to my part, my patterns and his pain, I broke through the anger/resentment and tried to reconcile. He still feels the same as he did in the affair. He is willing to work on our relationship, but has clearly told me that he feels bad about using me.

As of last Friday, he said "I feel like I'm using you less." I understand that I've lived with this man for 17 years and have been over-responsible and without boundaries, always concentrated on the fact he spoke something at all rather than what he said, but my first response to this was "yippee!" Quickly on the heels of that, came my boundary issue that I am not defective and worthy of love. I calmly asked if there was anything positive he could say, about anything at all. After 120 seconds of him trying to think of something, I said, still calm, "I understand" and left the room.

Is it really recovery when they agree to take the actions and let the feelings come later, and then take no actions (he only gives me affection when he feels like it so that I won't doubt his authenticity) unless they feel something? I must say that he has said he has felt "caring and tenderness" for me on two occasions...Christmas and a couple weeks before that.

I just wondered if my recovery hope is valid. He doesn't seem to be in withdrawal and says he only thinks of OW maybe twice a week, briefly...that she comes to mind and he wants to be with her, but knows that's a fantasy. Maybe I'm complaining for nothing--still withdrawal? Last Sunday was the first time he answered my questions on the affair, revealing the frequency of their unprotected sex. He admits he knew I thought it was EA because he said she wouldn't have sex before marriage. They began on their 3rd date. (I am freshly hurt, maybe?)

I've got to work on my fear of rejection a lot more, along with protecting my self-worth and esteem better. My Plan A has tapered off, somewhat--I'm not making him dinner every night, or mood lighting with candles and a fire. Still do the rest, but I know I'm not focusing on him all the time as I did because the counselor has instructed me to work on myself and leave my husband to him. This is good because I have focused too much on H during our marriage and then ended up resenting myself for it when he didn't talk to me about my loneliness. That was one of his resentments for me, also--made him responsible for my loneliness.

All I got...but if anyone could take a swing at this and let me know if I'm on the way to a healthy environment and just have to stick it out with the rough road right now; or if I'm continuing my repetitive cycle in a new guise and this is unhealthy. I can't tell.

LA

LA,

I have read this thread, and I am confused. I see that you had an EA/PA at about the same time as your H. You mentioned that have not treated him well during the marriage. You are frustrated that he has not come around faster.

Yet, you seem to be missing something here. He is coming around. He is in counseling. He has been hurt by your A, and you were hurt by his. HE got sit and watch you have one as you told him about it. Sort of "in your face" don't you think???

Given all of this, do you truely expect him to reengage into the marriage on YOUR time scale??? HE is reengaging slowly. He is working on his issues. Are you working on your issues? Are you in counseling to address yours??

I ask you all of this because you post seems so disjointed as if you can barely contain your anger at him, and yet, you have done as much harm as he has. Don't you see that?

If you do nothing else, please read the articles about love busters, and particularly the most deadly, Disrespectful Judgements, DJ's. YOu are making a lot and it is hurting recovery and it is hurting you.

Please have some patience with him and give this time. Have some patience with yourself as well.

I see progress, baby steps being taken. THat is a good think LA, recognize it, encourage it, compliment him on it. This can work.

God Bless,

JL

Thank you, JL

You're so right about the disrespectful judgments. I've been working for over three months to stop all LB's, but you made me realize that even though I don't say them to my FWH anymore, if I have DJ's in my mind, I'm still doing it. And yes, my anger is so high. I have a hard time recognizing anger from hurt (rejection) and I've controlled it in the past by taking on the blame for causing it in myself, instead of just my part. Feeling it as anger and knowing it is very difficult for me.

Maybe the DJ I keep doing is expecting FWH to put the M as a priority, as I think I'm doing. I've got to let that go. His eating, spending and pornography is what he's working on now and I'll have to find that patience to wait for my time. And use gratitude of his presence in our home to get through it. I have to have more faith than I do because he's been working on those three issues our whole marriage, so I feel like it may be more years of waiting. Before, though, I'd interfere with suggestions and DJ's and pressure and acceptance (all alternated), as if I could do that for him. No wonder his anger is so deep at me.

I know from reading my previous posts that I am obsessed with pointing the finger at him. Being aware of that and stopping it, day to day, is like a horrible habit that keeps slipping back into my mind. So, thank you for the wake up call. It's not about him. It's about me really getting down to who I am and accepting me, and not living through him. I can repeat this to myself, over and over, and still wake up back where I was before in my mind. Then I kick myself for it. It's a cycle I'd really like to stop.

We are a common couple--I've skipped my own feelings by living through everyone else but myself; he's a conflict avoider to everyone. He would please by agreeing with whatever was wanted, then go out and do the opposite. I would have angry outbursts, feeling rejected by him, and this would provide him with his normal guilt feelings. How do I stop taking his avoidance as rejection? Heck, I know it's coming from inside of me--if the checker at the grocery store doesn't say hello to me, I feel rejected. How do I stop myself from seeing it where it has nothing to do with me?

That is probably a question for our MC, whom we both see separately.

JL, do you think you have anything for me on this--how do I reconcile this priority disparity between FWH and me? I think that's why I'm feeling used, acting childish in my thoughts, and feeling such anger. I know I can't make myself a priority with him--that's why I screwed up so badly a year and half ago--and he has said I'm meeting all his needs (and I don't do that just to try to be enjoyed by him, but I know a good deal of it is my enjoying meeting his needs)...what am I overlooking here? Can you see something in this that would help me accept last place?

This has to be my own rejection problem coming into play--when I set a boundary, a couple of years ago, that we couldn't go a week without talking, he said that he couldn't do that. He has work on his mind, sports, and other stuff and he couldn't help it. In October, he said, "Maybe I won't talk to you for three months and you'll just have to accept that about me." I'm doing it again. The hurt just doesn't go away.

Okay--so maybe you're saying with patience, and true acceptance of him, in all ways, I won't keep feeling this hurt over and over again? I'm terrified that this is all that's in store for me. I need reasonable expectations...or no expectations of how I'd like to be treated or considered? I'm having a Plan A and boundary conflict here.

It really is a long haul back to the days when he used to call me three times a day, couldn't wait to be with me and share all his thoughts. My old LB's really lost that for me. So, yeah, I guess I can make that my top goal. With patience. Gratitude. No DJ's--outloud or inside.

LA