Hi Folks,

I had my second Mediation session this past weekend which lasted about 2.5 hours but didn't accomplish too much more than the last one.Just about financial agreements.A little about children.Mostly it was just surreal,being there,looking at all the books lined up on the shelves about litigation and becoming very sad about being there to begin with.It's horribly painful dismantling a marriage.

Anyway,just a "quick" question I would like some opinions on.I was going to put this on the D/D board but it's so slow there I thought this might generate more responses.

Now that the issues of D are almost all agreed upon,I would like to know people's thoughts about visitation.My situation is this: I live with my 2 girls in my beloved home and my WH lives 4.5 hours away right now in another country.He visits here at the home every other weekend( to end come January).It's clear that this current place WH lives at is not permanent.He will be again moving and taking another job next Summer,part of the problem we have had all along,his being away for the high paying jobs.

So,I want to know if I should be held responsible in any way for driving the children to see my WH.We are already adversarial in many ways right now,primarily my WH's desire to keep me in his life and be in as much contact as he can,which I am refusing at every turn.I feel that although I am not trying to make post D issues with children any worse,I am not going to make this easier on him either.So I am telling him that I am not going to help him out by driving half way to anywhere he is when it's his time with the children.This is most apparent for this holiday when he is going to see his parents and wants me to drive them out to spend a few days with everyone.Of course,I told WH that this is the only time I will make a concession.

Where WH lives and works now is not my problem and therefore I will not take time out of my day or schedule to drive here and there to make HIS life easier,this is part of the consequences of his cheating.The children's lives are here in this town and it's his responsibility to see them and do whatever it takes to make sure he is accountable to that.

The children would need to be picked up from home whenever WH is in town to see them but I feel strongly that no matter where he is visiting with them,whether it be right here in town or across the state to see Grandparents,it's HIS responsibility to be the driver,not me.This is an argument we have to resolve and I am trying to do that sooner than later.

So,what say you all?

Thanks for any replys.

O

OG,

One thing you may want to think about... Instead of seeing things from yours or your WH perspective try to see the situation from your children's perspective.

Your children have a right to see their father and they should not be punished for your WH's mistakes. Try to keep them out of the middle.

I'm not telling you who should be responsible for driving, you and WH have to sort that out but I do think it would be unfortunate if the children end up getting hurt the worst from this.

Hopefully WH wants to see the children and is willing to make every effort to see them but the children should not be discouraged from seeing him unless he is a threat to their safety.

Just my humble opinion. I can recommend a good book on parenting through divorce if your interested?

My sister and her XH have a deal. My best friend and her XH also have the same deal, so maybe it would work for you.

When the XH wants to see the kids, he is responsible for showing up and picking them up himself. When its time for them to return home, my sister and my friend pay the expenses of getting them back home or meet them in the middle to pick them up.

Maybe it would work for you?

Well....I can say that I see where you are coming from.....but.....what's more important here?

You not accomodating your H....or your children getting to see their father?

At one point in our odreal I LOATHED my H and wouldn't go near him....hated to even hear his name......BUT.....that was me.

My children still loved him and wanted to see him and have their time with him....so....I accomodated MY CHILDREN......that's different....no matter what he did to ME....he was still THEIR father. I couldn't have changed that even if I wanted to.

I didn't want my children to have to pay for my feelings for their father.....even if that meant that I had to do something I didn't want to do. Like taking them to their father.

I didn't look at it as making my H's life easier....I looked at it as making my childrens life easier.

Just because you transport them to your H doesn't mean that you have to talk to him....or have any contact with him at all for that matter. There are ways around it.

JMHO

Miker,

I knew this point would come up from someone but you are missing the bigger picture here.IMO of course.

From day one,when I found out about my WH's adultery(even before that),the children have ALWAYS been THE priority in my life.Even when I first found out and wanted to end my life,they came first.It has been each and every day about them and their happiness,wellbeing and safety.

The kids would in no way be in the middle or punished at all.They have been sheltered most of their lives and my WH do not talk about issues in front of them ever.Problems and D issues we discuss in private,usually per e-mail.

What I am suggesting is that it is my WH's *responsibility* to see his children as scheduled.But say he is visiting friends or is seeing the homewrecker and well,he just couldn't fit the time in to drive to our town to pick them up or is running late so would I,the ex wife,be a pal and help out by driving 2 or 3 hours so he doesn't have to.Do you see the difference? My WH should make sure that he MAKES the time to see them,it should not be up to me to fill in those gaps HE creates because of unnecessary and ineffective planning on his part.I feel that this would set a precedence that I do not want to have happen in the future with this parenting time.

Even despite all this,my WH knows that I will never interfere with his time with them but he is now responsible for making that time.That's what happens when you D.You have a whole new set of schedules and routines only his should not be that difficult.He is only seeing them every other weekend.He can very easily plan ahead to make sure he is around to see his children and nothing should interfere with that if he is so sure that they are his first priority,as he claims.


O

<small>[ December 13, 2004, 12:50 PM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

Thanks for the other replys.I can understand the ideation,however,our situation is a bit different.I have sole custody of the children,the girls will be living with me.WH lives many hours away.Not just across town.

No matter what,the girls will have to be in the car,A car with whichever parent if my WH didn't make it on time to see his kids but where do you draw the line about the EX's behavior? What if we go from: me picking up the slack for WH's not getting into town on time to see his kids( and this should not be a problem unless he had car trouble or broke a leg,etc)and helping him out by driving,and then he decides that he just can't make a birthday party so would I do all the present buying and shopping and decorating,to taking them out to a promised dinner alone because WH wasn't able to break away from work in time or was with the homewrecker,etc,etc.

What about boundaries as we have been talking about here? I realize this is about the children's welfare,it has always been most important but what about not allowing WH's behavior and selfishness with regards to his responsibilities to them from becoming my problems as well?

My children DO deserve to see their father and they need to see him.But what I have a problem with is the notion of supporting bad behavior when it comes to the children and their visitation with him.

I don't see it as my children having to pay for MY feelings for my WH.In fact,my children are not privy to the HUGE amount of anger and sadness he has created in my life but their disappointment would be caused by my *WH's inability to keep his parenting time with them,not because I choose not to support his laziness.

Keep em coming.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
O

<small>[ December 13, 2004, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

OG,

I'm not sure if I can be of any help to you since I do not have children of my own. This is just my own opinion:

Since you live with your girls in a rather small town (if I remember correctly...) and their entire life centers around this area, I would say that you suggest to your WH that he picks up the children at your home when it is his time for visitation. I'm not sure how often his visitation is scheduled, but I think it would be less traumatic for your girls if he were to come and pick them up at your home instead of you driving to some place to drop them off. If he is late or cannot make it for whatever reason, then at least they are in their familiar surroundings and you can make alternate plans for them.

From what you have written in the past about your WH, it seems that he is often very unreliable and I would hate for you and the girls to be put in a situation where you would drive several hours from your home only to be greeted by an emty house/apartment because something happened to your WH or he forgot the time etc. You know where I'm going with this...

I personally think that this would make the dropoff/pick-up the least painful for your girls.

Just my humble opinion.

Kati

I know the above post was addressed to Miker....but since I shared the opinion.....

I'm not really sure this is about your STBXH's resonsibility or his lack of it.

You said in your earlier post that it was the price he had to pay for cheating.

Yes...it's his responsibility to pick them up.

BUT.....your DD's are aware that they are going to be seeing their father every other weekend I imagine....and say something does come up and he can't pick them up and does ask you to bring them....or they suggest it themselves.....are you really going to deny them the chance to spend time with their father because of the way YOU feel about the situation?

It's not about you and your STBXH anymore....since your getting a D. It's not about who's right or wrong....it's about your DD's now.

If your STBXH happens to not be able to pick them up for whatever reason and you refuse to take up the slack......then it's not just your STBXH letting them down. Sorry...that's the way I see it.

The children shouldn't have to pay for the parents mistakes, feelings or anything else.

O, as someone who has 50/50 custody this year after sole custody for the last nine years I am going to have to disagree a bit with others.

Yes, kids need their dad. No you shouldn't have to drive them halfway to his house. He needs to drive to your town and make arangements at a motel etc.

I am unable to move out of this town where I live regardless of my career, my lovelife or my interests, court ordered.

I am now convinced that I should have retained full custody and Paige to see her dad on summer breaks, long weekends a few times a year, and things like that.

A 4 1/2 hour trip one way every other weekend is absurd, cruel to the kids really, ridiculous.

He chose to destroy the family, chose to move so far away. The girls don't needd to be with him every other weekend if he lives that far away in my opinion. And if HE wants to see them that often let him spend the dollars and drive himself to your town, or move closer.

OG,

I think the big picture IS doing your best to encourage visitation with your WH.

Of course there are limits as to what you can and can't do. But if it means the difference of whether your children get to see their Dad or not, I think its worth while giving that extra bit. You wouldn't be doing it for your WH you would be doing it for the children.

By the way. I think you should absolutely ask him to do this, it seems very fair and reasonable to me. But in my mind the question is what do you do if he refuses? Do you try to compromise a bit or stand firm and all costs?

Miker

<small>[ December 13, 2004, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: Miker ]</small>

Well, in a way I share this feeling, however in OG's position this makes it a little more difficult since her STBXH lives so far away and it is not just that easy to pick up and say "Hey, let me take'm over to your place instead." If he were to live in the same town or maybe even an hour away, then I probably would share your feeling, but since he lives many many hours away, it is just not that easy, IMO. What if she were to take them to his place and he happened to not be there or show up many hours later? Then what?

I think that OG is in a special situation here and it would be much easier for her STBXH to pick up the girls. She could always suggest it in her divorce decree and see what he says. He may even agree.

Kati

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Miss Priss:
<strong> I know the above post was addressed to Miker....but since I shared the opinion.....

I'm not really sure this is about your STBXH's resonsibility or his lack of it.

You said in your earlier post that it was the price he had to pay for cheating.

Yes...it's his responsibility to pick them up.

BUT.....your DD's are aware that they are going to be seeing their father every other weekend I imagine....and say something does come up and he can't pick them up and does ask you to bring them....or they suggest it themselves.....are you really going to deny them the chance to spend time with their father because of the way YOU feel about the situation?

It's not about you and your STBXH anymore....since your getting a D. It's not about who's right or wrong....it's about your DD's now.

If your STBXH happens to not be able to pick them up for whatever reason and you refuse to take up the slack......then it's not just your STBXH letting them down. Sorry...that's the way I see it.

The children shouldn't have to pay for the parents mistakes, feelings or anything else. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I agree 100%!

Kati

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by weaver:
<strong> O, as someone who has 50/50 custody this year after sole custody for the last nine years I am going to have to disagree a bit with others.

Yes, kids need their dad. No you shouldn't have to drive them halfway to his house. He needs to drive to your town and make arangements at a motel etc.

I am unable to move out of this town where I live regardless of my career, my lovelife or my interests, court ordered.

I am now convinced that I should have retained full custody and Paige to see her dad on summer breaks, long weekends a few times a year, and things like that.

A 4 1/2 hour trip one way every other weekend is absurd, cruel to the kids really, ridiculous.

He chose to destroy the family, chose to move so far away. The girls don't needd to be with him every other weekend if he lives that far away in my opinion. And if HE wants to see them that often let him spend the dollars and drive himself to your town, or move closer. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Hi Kati,

Thanks for your post.You are right,my WH has been unreliable in the past and I am fearful of setting up a routine where my WH expects me to always be around for him,have no life of my own and help him out with this new routine we will have.Granted it is tough for all involved but we all have responsibilities to our children,I will ensure that I keep up my part.I wouldn't expect my WH to stay an extra night here in town if I decided to up and leave town to see friends.That to me is irresponsible.And of course I would never do that.We all will have set times with the children.

Miss Priss,

Thanks for your post too.First of all,I said that this is part of the consequences of cheating,on my WH's part.I did not say it's his price to pay,that makes it sound like I am out to get my WH.I am not.

If something does come up where my WH seriously cannot and literally cannot come to pick up the girls like if he was injured or sick then of course we would discuss this.But what I will not agree or support is my WH not making the time to see his girls for what I would call frivolous reasons.Like I said before,he is only seeing the children every other weekend mostly except for the various holidays that we need to share them(i.e Easter,TG,Christmas).I do not think that there would be any reason other than a serious one where my WH could not be able to see the children,like an illness(where he shouldn't see them anyway if he's contagious)or an accident,severe weather(where I wouldn't drive either),see my point? Does this make sense?

It is very clear to me that although we are D'ing,my children need to see their father.I will never come between them as loing as it's safe.I am not that angry as to deny my children time with their dad.

From all that I have read about children and D,it is very important to keep rountines and maintain *consistency when it comes to visitation.Also,setting a good example is very important.I want my girls to know that they at least are this important,that daddy will see them when he is supposed to, come "he** or highwater".If the roles were reversed,then I would make sure I was there too.

O

edited for typos

<small>[ December 13, 2004, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

I'll be the voice of dissent <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I do not think you personally bear ANY responsibility for making sure the children see their Dad. You desire is for your children to have a healthy and beneficial relationship with their Father..despite the damage he has done to you...this is an indication of who YOU are nothing more. The rest is his buisiness. He made choices..his choices put him *here* needing to negotiate terms of visitation. Time for more choices. If he loves his career more than he loves his children..they are better off not being exposed to a fair weather Father. Screw him. He can move in next door if he so chooses. He is a grown man..he can do just as he likes. Your job is to provide a loving and stable home for them..not move the stars so that he doesn't have to be inconvenienced while playing Uncle Dad.

Noodle

OG,

I had a friend a few years ago who's x-wife (custodial parent) who moved away. He worked it this way:

My friend made an arrangment with a hotel near where his x-wife lived - special rate for repeat customer. He drove every other weekend something like 6 hours each way, took his son to the hotel where they always stayed, and spent time with him there doing things in that town. (They had a zoo etc.) Since it was always the same hotel, it was a bit like a 2nd home for the boy. The boy knew the place, was used to the pool etc. My friend also arranged to get off at noon on those Fridays so he could drive there and pick up his son on Friday night.

With this system, the boy didn't have to ride hours in the car - and he got to be with his Dad from Friday night til Sunday afternoon.

To me, it doesn't make sense to make the kids ride 9 hours in the car on the weekend - and it certainly doesn't make sense for you to drive them there. That would make both you and your X drive 9 hours each visit - pretty bad deal for all.

So, I don't think you should agree for half the transportation when he's the one who moved - and the only one likely to move in the future. It make you subject to great inconvenience at his discretion. If you do agree to drive, put some distance limit in the agreement. Then if your X moves farther away, he will have to drive the extra distance.

-AD

<small>[ December 13, 2004, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: AD ]</small>

weaver,

Thanks for your response.

I do agree with what you said.It is my feeling that my WH only sees them every other weekend,every OTHER! I cannot see how he is coping with this.I would die without seeing my children as much.I do think if that he really had the children as his priority as he's claimed,he would be living closer.But this has been a contentious issue,even with our counselor who tried to make him understand that if family,marriage and children are his priority then he makes them the priority and you do what it takes to keep it together.

All along though I felt this was his excuse to stay out of the marriage and not face what was really going on inside him.Our counselor picked up on this too.The further away he lives and works,the further away he is from dealing,ya know? You can only run so far and so fast but the past catches up with you and you have to live with yourself somehow.Right now,he is,I think,in denial,not facing anything,just having his sporadic adultery sessions with the homewrecker every *other weekend too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Nice to hear from ya.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
O

<small>[ December 13, 2004, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

noodle,AD,mojo,

Thanks for tuning in.

I agree,there is a lot of driving to be involved with in the future but it's not my dilemma,it's his.My WH chose to cheat and "start a new life" elswhere.Why should I be penalized or even more importantly,my children? Does he really expect the kids to be riding in a car for hours as their time with him each weekend? They are already balking at having to sleepover at Grandmas house for more than 2 nights but guess what: My WH is already trying to force them into staying longer than they want to for HIS sake.My youngest is really anxious being away from home now(thanks to WH) and I keep telling him he needs to compromise.He needs to take THEIR feelings into account and not keep telling me that this is the way it is going to be from now on. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

I think not.He is still trying to make this feel good to him and forgets that his kids are feeling anxious and scared.Still selfish,sorry.

AD,

your suggestion at a hotel/motel is exactly what I have talked to my WH about,rather,what I have suggested and he's ignored.I really think that the kids would benefit best by being near their home and in their town most of the time.I have no problem if my WH wants to take them out to see some sights or whatever.I even suggested that the kids might like sleeping over in a nice hotel with room service.But again,no response from WH.I think he wants all his visiting time with the kids to be at his parent shouse,3 hours away.I obviously said this would not fly.Too much driving for the kids again in one weekend I think.


Noodle,

My WH did tell me one day that he is fine with being a *part time dad. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> So,if this is how he feels and has been acting,then who am I to try and accomodate his whims now that things are getting tough for him.Not me,no way no how.I would move heaven and earth for my daughters but like you said,I will not be held responsible for WH's actions,choices or responsibilities as dad.

O

O,

I had as exciting a job as they come in the agency I work for. Once WW made her intentions clear, I took a new position that is …well….mundane. It does allow me to work dayshifts 4 days a week and every weekend off. No overtime either. I cannot take a promotion as I cannot afford to lose the schedule I presently have. I go in late the first day to get my son of to school and get off early on the last day to get the kids for supper. I compress my workweek to accommodate this. That’s a few hours shy of 50% custody, plus I work full time. This way I require no childcare. My WW, due to guilt I assume and the desire to see OM on weekends allows me to have the children every weekend. She continues to work part time mostly during the week and takes most of her weekends off. My son is in school 6 hrs. a day when with WW and my daughter is occasionally in childcare. We are locked into that for 3 years and then it’s up for review. That doesn’t mean I’ll relinquish that schedule easily….her problem.

Why I say this, is a person can state his priorities, but only actions speak to those. He could take a job somewhere closer for less pay if necessary to see his kids more. I can see agreeing to a drive across town to get the kids within half hour vicinity with him dropping them off afterwards. This way the onus is on him to be somewhere close on the Friday without ole reliable delivering half way across the country. I can predict what will happen; international jobs, Friday cocktails with the latest love interest etc. will no doubt leave you with the children far more than you will agree upon. Yes the children will suffer…it is merely the extension of the suffering they already have been subject to. His doing…his responsibility…his legacy.

Let him be miserable. Let him be the guy that others look to as an example for why they should work on their own marriage.

Hi Binder,

Nice to hear from you again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I saw your picture the other day on the MB photo album.I cried but also thought how sweet you all looked in the picture with your doggie.Your children are so cute..but then I think ALL children are cute! They are angels here on earth.

I agree that there may be a time when the WH stops seeing the kids even more.Many months ago I actually called him on this since I was documenting all the weekends he was taking off a day early to go back to Toronto or not coming at all when he was supposed to be here with the kids and THAT is when he tried to emulate the "model father" all of a sudden, when he found out I was documenting,also when I finally decided to file for a D.

I certainly have no problem whatsoever having as much time with the girls as I can.I love to be with them,look into their sweet faces,laugh and play,try to be the stable loving parent there for them,making a home for them.It's what I live for.

It sounds like you have a great schedule for your kids.They will so benefit from that.You are blessed.I also tried my hardest all their lives to keep them out of daycare and have succeeded up until now.They are in "aftercare" only for a couple hours twice a week until my mom can pick them up after work and take them home.I work 2 evenings a week now.

My WH wants ME to accomodate his schedule but HE does not want to make any changes.Sound familiar? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Well,I will be following your story as usual to see how things go.You and your family are in my prayers.

O

Although I am a new poster, I have been lurking
here a little over 6 months. I have read many of
you posts during that time and frankly what
has always struck me, I hate to say it, is
your overwhelming bitterness. I would ask to
seriously consider therapy. Therapy that does
not focus on the bad husband who did terrible
things to you but maybe the less than perfect
wife and mother who is definitely having trouble
taking her kids best interest to heart, she is
in such pain with her own grief.
Not said to be harsh but to give what I think
is a much needed kick in the caboose.