Hello again everyone.

Some of you may know my sitch others maybe not. Anyway I'm no where near recovery. WW is still trying to "figure out what she wants". I've been trying to do a Plan A for almost 3 months now. I've been trying to meet EN's (the ones she'll let me, WW doesn't want me touching her, cleaning house), exposed to everyone with influence over WW, no LB's, DJ's, try not to R-talk too much (sometimes I can't help it though). I've been making sure that she knows I'm going out, I dress up and stop by her work for a quick talk about the kids, even if I go to a movie by myself (kinda sad huh?). I've been back in the church, and found my way back to my faith (also sad, in that it took this to wake me up). My question is this:

WW is going out to clubs trying to live the single life that she missed out on when we were younger. This is not acceptable to me, however I cannot control her and make her stay home. I do believe that she has had PA with OM, although she has always denied, continues to lie and see OM. Although they don't look exclusive, as I've seen her dancing with other guys, and OM has been seen dancing with other girls. I get most of my info. from a PI I have on the case. I do not believe that this A had anything to do with my meeting her EN's (this was also confirmed by MC/IC, and a few other posters here... Noodle). I'm sure that I was meeting some, although I've learned a lot via SAA, HNHN, on how to do it better.

So as far as I can tell most BS's here are competing against one OP. Some OP's have a spouse that exposure can be made too. I don't have that sitch. and am asking for advice. Has anyone seen/been through this kind of A before. I have posted that this kind of seems like a 30yr Midlife crisis.

I need advice on how to get WW to realize that the single life isn't that great. That OM/Other guys just want her for one thing... SEX. And once they're done with her they'll just throw her away. I can't seem to break through the fog to make her see that. Maybe she WANTS that, SF with different/many guys as she was a virgin when we started dating? I don't know.

I've given myself till Jan 1st (as long as refinance is done on the house by then) for my Plan B to start. I take some comfort in that, also in the fact that I'm not the crazed lunatic that I was after Dday, also I know that God will take care of me regardless of what WW does. I really feel that I've been able to detach. Sure I have my bad days, but I'm only human. I haven't broke down in front of WW since about a month after Dday. I've tried to show her that I can forgive her and that I'm strong (just playing the fake Plan A game though). It just doesn't seem to be getting anywhere. I don't feel like I need to control my WW so that I can be married. I do feel like I need to help her out of this destructive behavior, and once she's through the fog if she then chooses a single life I think I would be okay with that. BS fog maybe.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!!

native, my husband is a little bit younger than me and approaching 30. I have felt all along that this was all an early MLC for him. He went to a college that was very restrictive and we married 3 or 4 days after his graduation. He *did* miss out on a lot of single stuff, but that was a choice that he made both in choosing his college and his choice to marry me when he did. I have a lot of empathy there (I had my son very young), but not a lot of sympathy.

I also do not have an OP to compete with. His affair was two years ago and was over before I found out. There was intermittent contact which I believe helped to deteriorate our marriage further, but the affair was over, nonetheless.

Now he is in his single-mode. He's dating others. Actually, he's NOT dating others but won't agree not to.

He went out a LOT at first...i mean a LOT and spent a LOT of money. It wore off really quickly. I'm not sure if he's reconsidering our marriage because single-life was not what he had hoped it would be...or if he's stopped going out because he's reconsidering the marriage. He hasn't said which and I haven't asked. We have not reconciled, but it seems like he has turned a corner.

I'm not sure exactly what you're looking for as everyone is different and your wife might not be like my husband. But if you're wondering if there's hope in your situation, there is.

Thanks Maddyk,

Yes I realize that eveyone's sitch is different, I was just hoping that maybe someone has seen this/been exposed to this before. It kind of seems like you have. I agree that my WW and I both made choices. That's what life is. I truly think that this is a maturity issue (also from another thread) for her. My WW has expressed the desire to get an appt. so she can have space "to figure out what she wants". Although that will be difficult on her paycheck. I think financially she will also find it hard like you WH did to live the single life.

Maddyk, did you do a Plan A/B, how did that go?

Native,

I'm sorry that your situation is so hard. I think someone had the thread of the right idea when they suggested a while back that the OM may not be that crazy about having kids around, since he's a single guy.

It seems to me that what your wife needs to understand is that the single life would NOT free her of her responsibility to her children.

The choice for her right now ought to be to work with you on fixing the marriage or to divorce and live as a single mother. The life of a single mother is NOT the single, go out and party life that you say she wants or that she is living now.

Hi AndrewA,

Yes I remember that post about OM and kids... I don't think I could do that to my children though. I don't know anything about this guy, I couldn't expose them to him. Although I don't know that my WW hasn't done that already. I would hope that she would be able to see past the fog in order to protect her children.

You and I can both see that raising kids are your own would be he!!. Although we had a joint custody arrangment she would be able to have a week off and live her stinkin party life.

I'm also thinking that she just needs to make up her mind and get it over with. I mean come on, when faced with a drastic decision that needs immediate attention, how long does it take to come to a conclusion. The problem is that I asked her what steps she was taking to "find out what she wants". She said she hasn't been able to because she doesn't have the separation that she needs!!! That's when I made my timeline to move to Plan B.

I just don't know how to compete against the single life where there may/may not be one OM...

native, your kids are a good tie that you and your wife have together. Your situation is not "better" than mine, but you are in a better position in the marriage building scheme of things. My husband and I have no children together, or any property or ANYTHING that keeps us together except ourselves. I say this just to give you a little more hope.

I am in Plan A right now though probably not a strict one. I never truly stopped the R talks which is probably my one way I didn't fully implement Plan A. Sorry, but I just couldn't. They DID stop becoming needy/desperate, though and certainly less frequent. I'd say every two-four weeks, I need to talk about things. But I'm always careful with what I say and don't talk of the future and stuff like that.

Quick background, just so you can see how things have gone for me.

Affair two years ago...comes home (he's in military) and I figure it out, he confesses immediately (well, after ten minutes maybe). Says he's been unhappy for a long time...blah blah blah. We decide to give it a year and then make a decision. I'm not in Plan A during this...I'm in a major depression and not doing ANYTHING to change things...felt like I was on eggshells all the time. Didn't feel that I could demand NC and contact DID transpire. Fast forward a year, things are better than they were, but not great. He has to go away again (the school he was at during his affair is something they have to do every year)..she was there again. I'm 95% certain that nothing "went on" but am sure they saw each other and talked. He comes home, tells me it's been a year and things are better, but not enough. He needs space, blah blah blah and tells me he wants a divorce. I ask him if he's considered a separation and he responds that he's not really sure what that means or what the purpose is. I explain that I would move, begin a life without him, we'd date others, but still work on things. Talk on the phone once a week or so, and visit every other month (he's in Puerto rico and I'm in Florida so this is why we can't see each other much). I made a budget to show how it could work. We agreed to not divorce until June 2005 no matter what. He agrees. There were still 4 months before I left and while it was a very sad time, things were actually really terrific between my H and I. The love we had for each other was never questioned..it was other things. So I leave in June and things go bad FAST. We were never ones to argue but I was just so horribly depressed and sad and he just seemed to suddenly not care. Everything was so great before I left and I couldn't understand what happened. He wouldn't listen to anything I had to say about things and would just repeat his mantra that he needed his space to figure things out.

Then I found MB in July, I think and saw what a bad idea dating others was. I told him that I was not going to date other people and I asked him not to. He would not agree. So I start Plan A and stop calling him all the time and stop emailing and IM'ing. Not completely, but did for the most part. Wouldn't take all of his calls, though I did always return them. I started making my changes and started to go out and got a life.

His first visit was in August...it went very well. I didn't feel that things had changed but it wasn't awkward and it was just a really nice visit. I asked him again not to date and he still would not agree.

And that's about the time he started going out all the time. Come to find out there was a girl on the base he was pursuing (never went anywhere, but not for lack of him trying). This is a man who likes to go to bed at 9 PM every night and here he was, Thursday-Sunday out until at least 2 every morning. I was so disappointed because our visit had gone so well and I didn't really know that that was going to happen (him going out all the time). So this lasts until about September...4-6 weeks. Then I noticed he stopped going out all the time. He started working out at martial arts 4-5 nights a week. It was about THIS time that I started going out a lot. Of course my purpose in going out was different than his, but I was having so much fun and new things were happening and I made sure that he knew about it.

During the time that he was going out a lot, things were really awkward between us. We didn't know what to say on the phone to each other or anything. So I asked if he'd consider talking twice a week and just making our conversations shorter. He agreed that he was really starting to miss our friendship and that was a good idea. So we started talking twice a week and the funny thing was that we actually ended up talking LONGER each call. The more frequent contact allowed us to be more familiar with our daily routines so there was more to talk about with each other. So our friendship definitely began to improve.

All the same I felt that he was detaching himself further and further and things were just getting more and more grim. The friendship was still there and better than ever, but I felt like his love was fading. His next visit was scheduled for the end of October and his high-school reunion was during that time. He refused to make any real plans with me and decided not to stay at my house (he did stay at my apt the first time he visited). I was disappointed..but...shrug. The fact that he wasn't staying at my place confirmed that he was considering divorce more seriously and while Plan B isn't usually recommended for those who don't have kids together and are already separated, I began to contemplate a Plan B, depending on what happened over the holidays.

So he came to visit and did spend the first night at my house. I was able to show off some of my Plan A changes and I made sure I had plans for the weekend while he was at his reunion. Just an add-in here. A girl that he was once infatuated with was trying to "get together" like REALLY get together with him during his visit, and he ended up completely ignoring her which was a HUGE surprise for me as I thought he'd definitely take her up on it. Anyway...did not spend any of the weekend at my house and still refused to make plans for after the weekend. Was hurt that he did not invite me on a family outing on Sunday as I love spending time with his dad and step-mom. Confirmed further to me that things were just not good.

So..I *think* on Monday we went out to lunch and he off-handedly said, 'you never gave me the numbers for counseling' (meaning the harley's). Well this shocked me and seemed to come out of left field. I explained that I just didn't think he had any interest. Later on he threw out another comment like, "I can't go to counseling in Puerto Rico..you know how things are there. Maybe next time I come up I'll schedule an appt with your counselor" Again, me with my jaw on the floor. Then the either on Monday or Tuesday we went to Tampa and had a nice time...he got a tattoo and I got a piercing..lol..fun, huh? He ended up spending the rest of his visit at my place. We didn't have any R talks..but the night before he left I couldnt' stand it any longer. Despite the nice times we had, I still felt like there was a certain detachment. We were in bed and I said, "I think this is going to be our last visit like this." He replied carefully, 'ok'. I responded that i didn't mean that I didn't want to see him, but that things seemed very strained and I couldnt' see keeping up the farce of visiting. Well.....then he started talking. Didn't say a whole lot and wouldn't come out and say anything directly, but he left me with the feeling that he'd been thinking about things.

I get a call two days later and he starts talking..and talking. Said he had a really really great visit (shocked me..I didn't think it was going all that well). Said he has started to seriously reconsider things. He'd gone from being 95% sure he wanted a divorce to 50% sure. Now that's not great, but it's a baby step! He told me the reasons that things were changing and he told me the things that were holding him back from committing to our marriage. I really appreciated knowing the reasons for all this as I didnt' want to be left wondering anything.

Bottom line...we're still about 50/50 a month later. He has not called the counseling numbers though I only gave them about two weeks ago. Talk on the phone is really great and I've been getting a lot of "I love you's" (one thing I DID stop is 'i love you'). Things are really flaky with Christmas and there's been some problems there. Things are definitely not great and I'm not sure if we will make it or not. But my plan A DEFINITELY made a difference.

Incidentally...we talked a lot about talking of our R and how I said I know I shouldn't and didn't want to push him away, etc, but that it was hard for me to stop it. I did tell him that I would "warn" him when I was ready for an R talk. His response to that was that he was glad that I pushed and didn't want me to stop. It made him think about things. So while I think that no R talks is generally good advice and there are times when I should've refrained (like when he was pursuing that girl...only drove him further away, I think), I also think there are times when R talks are a good thing.

Sorry for the book..just wanted to give you some background so that you can see it's possible. My marriage might not make it so I don't want to give you false hope..but wanted to let you know that Plan A can definitely help and that you're not in a hopeless situation.

thanks for the replay maddyk,

Wow your sitch does really seem kind of strange like mine compared to others here. It does seem like yours is/could be getting better. I really hope that your WH comes back and realizes what he will be missing.

I do have hope, not in my WW, but in God and that he will return my W and not my WW. I'm just seeing if there is anything that I can do to punch through this "Single Life is so great Mantra". It's not all it's cracked up to be, although I think it is harder on single guys then single girls... that is just my opinion though. So do you think you WH will call SH? I wish my WW would but she said she didn't want to. Still on the fence on what she wants.

native, I *think* he'd call this week if I asked him to, but I'd like to give him some time to do it on his own. Money is not a small consideration for us. He is fully supporting me right now and while I *do* need to work, i'm hoping to start school in the spring.

I do think you're right in that it is easier for a single girl than a single guy, but that doesn't mean the charm won't eventually wear off.

I don't feel that there is anything you can do or say to your wife that will make her see that the life she is living now is not so great. She doesn't want to hear it and if you push, she just going to feel more strongly about the choices she's making, even if it's only to PROVE something.

But that doesn't mean there aren't things you can do. She's still living with you, right? Next time you see her getting ready to go out, say nonchalantly..."Oh, I'm going out tonight. Who did you get to sit for the kids?" (make sure you have plans, even if it's just to go the movies by yourself). This will force her to think of the very real responsibilities she has and will help to keep her from taking advantage of you as a live-in sitter. Yep, they're your kids and it's not like babysitting, but imagine how convenient this is to her and her fantasy world right now. You haven't said, but I'm gussing that she just assumed you'll be there to watch the kids. Don't let her make that assumption. This is in no way, shape or form a punishment or an LB. You like to go out and have fun just as much as she does, right? Even if not in the same ways? Why should she have it so easy? Be careful not to use the kids as pawns with this..but this might be a good way for her to see some reality here.

I will suggest as most others here do that the most important part of Plan A and the best thing you can do for you and your marriage is to make sure you're always on the go and start getting a life for yourself. I think this was thing that made my husband start reconsidering for the following reasons:

1) I had become very dependent on him during our marriage, though that was never my intention. I made him my world. My show of independence allowed him to see me in a new light and take some of the pressure off of him that he had to be a perfect husband to make me happy.

2) We used to love to go out and have fun and for a variety of reasons that are really jsut excuses, stopped going out so much. We jsut didn't have a lot of fun anymore. Me going out and being excited about it and sharing it with him (never in an "in your face" manner) reminded him of the good times that we had, and that we DID have a lot in common, that I AM a fun person and we COULD have fun together.

3) maybe seeing me "move on" was a little bit more than he was ready for.

Just wanted to add...

As far as your wife "wanting" to work on things or not...

Reread arjdad's thread he recently made. I made a post on the first page concerning willing vs wanting. I've had to go through this too and am still going through it to a lesser extenet.

Have you asked your wife, "You've told me you're not sure what you want, but would you be WILLING to do XXX for the sake of..." for the sake of the kids, for the sake of the love you once shared, etc... There's nothing wrong with willing but not wanting to as long as it eventually leads to wanting to. Anyway...check out that post as I explain how I feel about it in length..lol..there.

Hi native,

I think where you may be headed is in the wrong direction.You are not in a competition for your WW against the single life.No one should be in a competition for their spouse or loved one.When you have to start fighting for someone is when the balance is off.It less about being together as partners in love,marriage and family and more about what hoops will you jump through for them to stay,if they will.Is this how you see your relationship going? The real deal is that you are enduring the inner demons of the WS.An OP is just an excuse and an escape like any other problem(drugs,alcohol,abuse,sexual addiction,etc).

Keep the focus off what ridiculous things your W is doing and how you can be a better person.That's all we really have anyway,the ability to be the best person we can be which translates into all other areas of our lives and the roles we have: husband,wife,father,mother,brother sister,son,daughter,friend,etc,etc.

Your WW may think it fabulous acting like a single teen again without any responsibilities but she can't shirk those responsibilities forever.At some point she will need to come back to reality and face her children,her debts,her emotions,her family,everything.Just like you cannot control WW's behavior,you can't MAKE her see your side.Like most WS's,she is in denial as to all the pain she is farming out.And you cannot help her out of her destructive predicament.

All you can do is what you have been and doing well from what you said,focus on yourself,grow and learn,read,get out and about,counsel,etc.So that if your WW ever does return back to you and want to recocile and you want to as well,you will be ready.

Recovery in my marriage never came so I did have personal recovery or rather that is what I am working on now and trying to get through this D.You can too.

O

maddyk said:I don't feel that there is anything you can do or say to your wife that will make her see that the life she is living now is not so great. She doesn't want to hear it and if you push, she just going to feel more strongly about the choices she's making, even if it's only to PROVE something.

Well she is definately not lacking in Pride.

But that doesn't mean there aren't things you can do. She's still living with you, right? Next time you see her getting ready to go out, say nonchalantly..."Oh, I'm going out tonight. Who did you get to sit for the kids?"

I wish it was that easy, she works till 11:30 pm on Fri and Sat. nights, thats when she goes out. So it's not like I could tell her that, b/c I'm already watching the kids. I did try this on her once when she went out on a Wed. (Tues, Wed, are supposed to be her nights with the kids) and she beat me to the door saying well you'd better get a sitter.

1) I had become very dependent on him during our marriage, though that was never my intention.

This is sound advice, I think I've done an okay job of this, but I should work on it more.

3) maybe seeing me "move on" was a little bit more than he was ready for.

Also good advice, I think this must happen also in my sitch. Thanks Maddyk.


Ogirl: It less about being together as partners in love,marriage and family and more about what hoops will you jump through for them to stay,if they will.Is this how you see your relationship going?

Unfortunately, yes I do see myself trying to "win the game", only she won't even let me "lace up my shoes" ie, not letting me meet her EN's.

Keep the focus off what ridiculous things your W is doing and how you can be a better person.

So make myself better, still Plan A? Try and meet her EN's she won't let me meet?

but she can't shirk those responsibilities forever.At some point she will need to come back to reality and face her children,her debts,her emotions,her family,everything.

So your saying go to Plan B now?

Thanks for the advice, it's really good getting to hear from woman. If there are some FWWs out there also I'd REALLY love to hear any advice from you also!!

Thanks, native

Hi native,

Just a quickie because I am trying to get to bed and I keep reading more posts! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

First of all,I am not advocating meeting your WW's EN's entirely.Most WS's will not let you fill them when they are up to their necks in adultery.It useless.You can try but don't go to extremes.You can also wear yourself out trying to fill needs and when you get nothing in return,which is almost guaranteed,you feel worse.

**People keep forgetting that EN's are supposed to be met AFTER the A has ended,not during.It's a gamble and most likely not one you will win with an OP behind the scenes filling needs.Focus on no LB's,DJ's,POJA and discussing with your WW how this A is making you feel and that you want the A to end to have the chance to make your marriage better and address the issues that lead you both to where you are today.Focus on bettering you,getting educated,etc.

I am not saying Plan B now either.Wait a while longer if you can hang on.Try to be cordial and non confrontational for now.Go about your business,like life is still going on for you despite what she is doing.That you do have a life and are trying to live it as best you can while she is out acting inappropriately.

You can try to encourage your WW to partake in family activities to see what she is missing but again,that may not have any impact.It's a waiting game until she realizes that the OM cannot and will not be all that she thinks he can be.No one person is capable of this fantasy based ideal.

Ok,that's it for now.I'll check in with ya later on.Night~

O

native, there may come a time when you have to Plan B, but make sure you've done a great plan A first, which includes making a life for yourself.

As far as meeting EN's, that's a toughie. I was able to meet some from a distance, though obviously I could't fill things like SF or Companionship.

My support of his career was always very important to him so I made sure that I kept that up. I also praised him for his fortitude in sticking with martial arts when before it was always something he'd do for a few weeks than quit. So support and admiration were ones I could still fill.

I would thank him for things that I know he worked hard at. I could always tell when I hit a good mark, as he'd get a little flustered and try to lessen the magnitude of his accomplishment. But I know it pleased him that I noticed and said something.

During our marriage I could sometimes be inconsiderate. I was the one to forget important dates and I was sometimes selfish when I knew that he really needed me for something. Small, inexpensive gifts have been a way to show my consideration. Things like a CD he can't get in Puerto Rico, some Chai tea. Stuff like that. And now I try to really listen for clues that he needs me and I make sure I'm espcially attentive.

I'll bet there are things you can still do, it's just a matter of thinking of them.

You can also wear yourself out trying to fill needs and when you get nothing in return,which is almost guaranteed,you feel worse.

Yeah I think I need to relearn this lesson of only meeting the ones she wants me too.

discussing with your WW how this A is making you feel and that you want the A to end to have the chance to make your marriage better and address the issues that lead you both to where you are today.

She really doesn't like M-talk, all she wants is to get her space and separate, so I've tried to minimize any relationship talk.

I am not saying Plan B now either.Wait a while longer if you can hang on.Try to be cordial and non confrontational for now.Go about your business,like life is still going on for you despite what she is doing.That you do have a life and are trying to live it as best you can while she is out acting inappropriately.

I think I've been doing an okay job so far, but I'm sure I could do better.

It's a waiting game until she realizes that the OM cannot and will not be all that she thinks he can be.No one person is capable of this fantasy based ideal.

There in lies the problem as I'm having a hard time waiting and watching the cake-eating. I guess I'm your typical guy in that I want to fix something that is broke. Even though I shouldn't or can't, I guess that's my problem though. Thanks, Ogirl!!!

Maddyk:native, there may come a time when you have to Plan B, but make sure you've done a great plan A first, which includes making a life for yourself.

Hi maddyk, yeah I plan on putting on my best Plan A game the last week of Dec. shouldn't be hard with the holidays. Come Jan 1st if the house is refinanced I'll be going to Plan B, I think, unless a miracle happens. Which it totally could as I and others are praying daily for WW.

As far as meeting EN's, that's a toughie. I was able to meet some from a distance, though obviously I could't fill things like SF or Companionship.

Well the only ones that she has told me that I didn't meet (and I know this is fog, excuse, justification, but oh well) is Affection and Conversation. Well there's not much I can do for affection as she doesn't like me touching her or seeing her change clothes. So I've tried talking more to her about my daily activities, the kids, my family. Stuff like that, although I don't think EN's are really an issue here.

Thanks for the thoughts ladies!!! I just wish I could get inside her head and she what she's thinking!!!! Anyone have a mind probe then could lend my? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Bump

Any FWW out there that could help me get into WW's head? I'd really appreciate it.