Ok BDGD- I do want her, I am ready to go through the emotional turmoil. I just meant right now, it's like touching an electric fence. I also feel like whenever we talk, it spirals out of control. I am afraid to cause more damage by pushing her. I don't LB, etc. but don't know if I should let her find her own way back.

Maybe I should just tell her how I feel, that she is welcome back. What I don't know is if she wants to come back. Also, will she just see that she still has me on the line and can continue to string me along. I want her to get off the fence. How do I motivate her back? This lack of contact isn't helping, or is it, I don't know? Last time we talked i felt she was tipping a bit. Comments like she missed our house, dog, life...but not me (Fog?).

My plan A stinks. It is not enough. Not like others I read about here. Difference is, my WW hasn't decided to come back. I feel like we are just drifting apart. She doesn't want to work on M. Until she does, I work on myself? Go out and stuff. Been there, done that, don't need it, don't want it. We live in a small town. Nothing much to do on a Sat night but go out and get wasted. That is not the answer. Also, i am pretty vulnerable now. We live in a college town. Do you know what the bar scene is like? Very tempting. I do not want to get on that slippery slope. So what do I do instead?

Hey Bear, I think you can take some comfort in the fact that WW is at P's house and is not running around. I also think that its good that you've been able to detach a little from her. I also have had to detach from my WW, even though we are still in the same house (for financial reasons only, not cuz she wants too).

I know that electric fence feeling. It really hurts. My H and I really went through that. Argument after fight after explosion. Strangely enough, it WAS liberating when we both said to each other, "I don't know if I want to continue with this relationship." For once we were on the same page, all the pretences were gone and I think we both realized that we had to make an active choice.

Plus, no one can be a zombie throughout this. You two are touching on things that should have been said many, many moons ago (as my mum says). What do you really have to lose by saying what you honestly feel? Oh yeah, she can hurt you again. Please. All this was borne out of hurt. She knows you are hurt, you know she is hurt. Even if you do nothing, it is still going to hurt. Even if you find yourself in a college bar (at what? 30?) it's still going to hurt. Even if you find yourself watching t.v. or cruising this site on Friday night, guess what? It's still going to hurt.

At least you two are still talking to each other, which is a lot more than dozens of people here can say.

So maybe she doesn't say what you want her to say. You're braver for saying it. Knowing she can come back will sink in. Knowing that she is wanted will sink in. Knowing that she has a choice, as do you, will sink in.

You know what differentiates the OM and my H? Bravery. Willingness to face an uncertain future.

Well said BDGD, at least there are open lines of communication. Your right in that some people don't even have that. Kinda goes against the saying "If you don't have something nice to say...". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

BDGD- So, are you saying I should go out on that limb again and ask her to come home? I haven't done that for a month. I say this now, and will backtrack later, I'm sure, but I really feel this is the last time I will ask her to come home. Look at everything, there's Xmas, a 2yr old going thru this time of year. If she doesn't see that she should come home now, when will she see it. I am working on the assumption that what she said is true about NC since Tgiving. What am I thinking, I don't believe that.

So, what do you think? Another shot, or should I just get it over with and grab that electric fence?

Well, you don't want to electrocute yourself, nor do you want to immunize yourself to the effects of the fence. How did she respond last time you asked her? What exactly did you say? Were you crystal clear?

But you're right. The longer she stays away, the easier it is for her to stay away. The thing that bothers me about your SIL's conversation with the OM is that, rather than showing your WW his true colours (which she probably already knows, which are probably part of the her attraction to him, yeah, yeah, the "rake" phenomen), is that it is contact, and that sort of contact will trigger intense feelings of jealousy and possessiveness from your WW to him. She has to be isolated from that in order to recover and what better way to do it than under your supervision.

Sometimes I think you get stuck on the words. A lot of men do. Think of the words your WW uses as an expression of her feelings at that moment, not for all time past and future. When she said she misses the house, dog, etc. try to think that she is saying she misses the family life the two of you built together. Is she the sort of person who says things, really means them at the moment, and then usually regrets them, or tries to change them later? Only you know. I can't even begin to guess.

But how straightforward have you been with her? Are you fence sitting as well? It's just that you know you are stuck as long as she is with her parents.

BDGD- Have a lot to post about last night. Have an appointment right now so I will get back to you.

No, I am not fence sitting. I know what I want. I want my wife back. I want us to be in love again. I am prepared to live life without her, however, if she does not want a life with me.

Stay tuned.

Ok here goes. First, my WW made a reference to me last night about "you don't have the answers from reading stuff on the internet" I assume she meant this place. So, dear, if you are reading this forum, just know that I DO love you and want a long happy life with you. I use this place to get help, make myself a better person, vent, and try to understand what is happening.

Picked up son from daycare, went home, ate, played, watched Snoopy Xmas, then it was time to go to Grandma's as was getting late (8 PM). He has been having trouble at daycare, 3 TO's yesterday, 4 the day before, hitting kids, etc. What I didn't know is he get 3 warnings before TO's, so he is basically being naughty all the time. Went to leave and he threw a fit. He didn't want to leave his house, didn't want to go to Gma's, didn't know why he had to go, crying, screaming, the whole deal. This has been hard on him, and his behavior is getting worse and this is really affecting him. I made the decision right there that he needed to come back home and regain some stability in his life. WW could stay at P's if she wanted but he was coming home.

Got out to Gma's and the fits continued thru bathtime and beyond, he was acting horrible and crying the whole time. When WW got to Gma's (she had been at IC) I told her that this was his last night there. He can't keep doing this and he needs to move back home. It was her decision if she wanted to move as well. I would like for that to happen.

She ran upstairs, as Gma, son, and I sat in TV room. Gma agreed that this needed to be done, I said I should probably go talk to her. When I got upstairs she was sitting on the floor crying. I sat down next to her and told her I hated to see her like this, that noone wants to hurt her. Tried to comfort her, touched her shoulder, she recoiled and yelled don't touch me.

From here, I am just going to go over details of the convo. Don't I get it, she doesn't feel anything for me anymore, hasn't since before A. Everybody is just forcing her to do something she doesn't want, hates me, P's, everybody. They never cared about her, screwed up her life as a child. I'll get what I want, she'll move home, but she won't ever touch me, etc. I just didn't want to disappoint everyone by breaking up. Nobody cares about her. I'm a psycho.

Somewhere along the line I got sick of hearing the foggy pity. Finally said in a firm voice, "If you don't like it do something about it. Get some balls and file, then. Go get a lawyer and get it over with. It's what you want, right, you don't want me." Her: but nobody will support me (parents). This after she just got done saying she doesn't care about them, need them, family anybody, hates us all. Me: You're a big girl, you have job, move to XXXX, get an appartment, raise S on your own. Her: I won't be the first one who has done that (single mom). Me: no, you won't be, and I won't be the first guy to get D, happens to half of us. If your gonna do it, do it, quit Fing around. Let me get on with my life. But if you want to, I do want to work it out. I will love you and support you, etc.

The mood changed from crying to I don't know what when i challenged her. Like she could see throught he haze at what was happening, IMO. I gave her an out, she didn't want to take it.

Bottom line, tonight I PU son from daycare. We are going, moving his stuff home. WW vowes she will not seperate from him and is coming home to. But how can I make her move midweek. Me: tough, he's moving, if you need to pack an overnight bag, you're good at it (reference to her coming home every night and picking up clothes for the next day).

I really tried to stop any LB's, I think I did pretty well. I didn't throw A in her face, I stated facts, told her I loved her and wanted to work things out. I also was trying to get her off the fence. Told her she had choices. If she went for D, she fear losing family. I replied, yes, that could happen, but that is a consequence of your choice. Then said something how they would never see Grandson again.

If this sounds like a jumbled mess of thoughts, that is what it is. It was a jumbled mess from her last night. I was clear and on point. Son is coming home, you are welcome. I am willing to work on M. If not, quit messing around and file.

Bear,

It sounds like your W responds to similar methods as does my H.

Seems like my mantra during his withdrawl period was "This is the standard, that is the door" repeat until insane.

When they get a grip on the concept that NO ONE is standing between them and what they SAY that they want..it gets scary..it gets real..there WILL be consequences..this is NO LONGER a fantasy. The fact that you gave her an out..and she balked is very telling.

Good job..consider this for future use..not suggesting to be harsh..LB..nothing of the sort..but use what works with regard for her temperament.

Excellent that you took control and just went and got your son. Now get him into counseling. Make stability for him..and keep the standards in place..do not overcompensate..it scares children.

Noodle

Son is 2 so don't really know about IC for him. He knows things are messed up, but doesn't know why or reasons. He'll heal from this and won't remember IF we can reconcile.

I am not forcing her to do anything, she claims I am. I am just playing Monte Hall...door #1 or door #2, your choice, live with the results. No LBs, but she hates me for it...now.

Bear,

I agree with Noodle. You did a good job of taking control of the situation and helping your wife see with clarity the reality of the situation.

I am concerend about your son. What sort of daycare is he in? Is it a home daycare or a center? Either way, I think you should tell the daycare provider about the stress your son has in his life right now. Maybe they know of a way to help. At any rate, it's good for them to know that he is dealing with things and not simply a "bad" kid.

I know you care about him. But...please as you work through things with your wife, don't lose site of the fact that you may not be fully equipped to deal with your son's issues right now.

Bringing him home was a good first step. He does need stability. But...you may need some professional guidance as well.

He is at in-home daycare and they do know the sitch. They know he is not a bad kid. Just acting out.

Bear,

Does the daycare provider have any training or experience that will help him or her deal with a situation like this?

By the way...am I correct that you also have school-aged children? If so, perhaps you can pick the brain of their school counselor.

Bear,

Yes..they hate it. I want freedom is not the full truth of their cry. I want freedom without consequence is. I want priviledge without responsibility. I want to eat but not work.

When given a choice and forced to realize that they have always ever been nothing but free..they hate you. It means that if they are unhappy..it is because they choose to be.

It is the right approach to not coddle and to keep that choice with it's full weight ever before them. Left or right, up or down, choose. Lest the choice be made for you when my ability to tolerate this is depleted.

DS is 2? OK, yeah..probably not needing to work on his "I" statements then <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Extra love..and firm boundaries. Poor baby <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Noodle

One child, 2 years old. Daycare is not pro, no training in dealing with problems, but she is very patient with him.

Hey Bear,

Wow this sounds promising! It sounds like you gave her to options, and she finally got off the fence, at least one foot is on the ground at least. And that foot is on your side of the FENCE!!!

I don't want to get your hopes up, I try not to get mine up (self-preservation). However I like to see the positives and I would have to chalk this one up to Bear 1, OM 0.

Sounds like a good time to put on your best Plan A game!!! I think you have broken the party girl!

I wouldn't say she is off the fence yet. The big question, she sees these probs as not A related rather major probs in pre A M. I agree, we had probs. She believes they are 2 impossible to overcome. I also believe these probs are magnified by the A, but not as impossible as she believes. SHe's looking at this from a whole other perspective. I'm thinking what came first, the chicken or the egg. Did our probs exist so she used the A as an outlet? Or are problems being magnified as justification for A, though they do exist? (It must have been real bad, that is why I had an A, hindsight).

What is with the recoiling from my touch? I have been asking this question for awhile. I really don't get why I am being treated like a leper. I DIDN'T BETRAY OR CHEAT ON HER. Is it, well, now that you know (about A and way I feel) get the F away from me?

You already know the answers to those questions. Not wanting touch? Part of the justifications (either "I loved him so much" or "I don't love you, otherwise how could I do this?"). She has a young child with you. You can't be that bad.

I'm not coming back to this site; it's time for me to move on, give the A a funeral, so to speak. I told my H everything that I was ashamed of doing and feeling. And he listened without anger or judgment. I think we are both ready to move forward.

I wish you the best.

Please be kind to your wife. Don't judge her too harshly. Same to yourself.

Thanks BDGD and good luck with everything though I am sorry to see you go. You're right, I know those answers, but keep posing those questions, when will I learn?

Now for some big news. I picked up DS at daycare, came home and noticed someone had been there. I went out to MIL's house to pickup DS's things like I dais I would. MIL was there and started asking me were WW was. Why? MIL said that much of WW's things were gone and it looked like she was moving. There wasn't anything moved into our house. We both kinda looked at each other like where is she going? Turns out I just missed her and she was moving back home. Good.

Bad. She is in the most vile hateful mood. Treated MIL and I like we were dirt. WW said she hated all of us. Later told MIL that she's moving home but I had better not touch her. Heard her yell to MIL, "...then you live with him (me)."" So I spent last night and this AM with someone who would probably like to see me dead. Well didn't really spend anything, just was in the same house. Seperate bedrooms, of course. I did not force her to move home. I told her she could leave if that is what she wanted.

Now I could see if I had wronged her and treated her horribly. Thing is, I haven't. I will give it time and treat her with love and kindness. Hard to do when you are criticized for things as little as how you call for the dog after he does his biz outside. Bob Pure, where are you? I need a little uplift here.

Bear,

Even though I KNOW how hard it is to see your wife behave this way..do not take it to heart.

She is having a temper tantrum. Nothing more. Now, there are a few ways you can deal with this. I dealt with it differently than most here, but I'll go ahead and share it with you as your wife responded favorably to similar tactics before.

What she is doing..is making a CHOICE and trying to blame someone else for it. I NEVER allow this. If it were me , I would look her straght in the eye, and calmly inform her..that she IS an adult, that no one is forcing her to do anything, and that if she wishes to remain WELCOME in your family home..she WILL keep a civil tongue in her head. If she doesn't like it..the door is located conveniently to her left [or right, as the case may be]. Remember, if she has to sleep on the street..adult, her choice. The reason for doing this..is NOT grandstanding..it is to disallow her to mentally and emotionally assume a child role. She NEEDS to be forced out of this. Allowing a child to throw a temper tantrum sets a precedent for future disrespect. I urge you to NOT stand there and take it. Have a plan. I myself had to literally say to myself, over and over, in the bathroom mirror "This is the standard, that is the door" it has two meanings..one that he can uphold the minimum standard of decent conduct or go elsewhere..and the other to remind myself that I CHOSE to recover, and the standard applied to me as well.

Or you can take a slightly more passive, though also effective route..for better info on this..read Bob Pures saga..he goes into great detail, and it really worked for him..it has a lot to do with the temperament of the people involved.

Reverse babble..also good, Orchid can guide you through it..she has an entire thread of advice and examples.

I can't think of anything else off the top of my head..but even these few ideas should keep you busy for a while.

Good luck,

Noodle