Bear,

Again, I agree with noodle. Your wife is having a tantrum. She needs to understand that her behavior is a choice...and that she has other choices she can make as well.

I'm curious: how has she been toward your son? Is your sense that she came home only because you weren't going to allow him to stay at her parents' place anymore?

Ohh she coddles DS and treats him in a very loving manner. It's like he is the only good thing in her life. Not only do I sense that is the only reason she is there, but she told me that as well (fogese, I'm sure). However, when I told her she could leave, get her own place, I also told her DS could go with her, because the child does need his mother (father too, but you know how small children are). She didn't choose that path.

Bear

I agree with you..he needs his mother..and this crazy delinquent child is not her.

You should never have offerred to allow your son to be removed from his home to go with her on her path of destruction.

If an actual divorce did take place..then certainly..custody arrangements would be made..until then..your son lives in the familys home.

She does not get comfort in making bad choices. Do not buffer her from any of the realities of her decisions. Especially not at DSs expense.

Noodle

Bear,

Noodle is right: losing you family - and possibly your children - is one of the potential consequences of this kind of behavior. That should be made clear to your wife.

If she wants to go, she can go. But the child lives at home.

Noodle & Drew- Yes, I agree about not letting DS go with her on path of destruction. But, have you ever asked a question or made an offer to someone and you knew what the response would be? I admit I gambled there, but I felt I knew what her response would be. Just like her telling noone and just moving home the very next day. Why did she do that? Nobody forced her to. Why did I make such a statement, take that risk? I knew the answer, plus now she has no oppportunity to accuse me of forcing her to do something she didn't want to do. She had a choice. I remember as a child my parents making me do things, I knew it was for my own good and they were looking out for me and being good parents, yet I kicked and screamed and defied them the whole way. She's acting the same way.

As for her behavior, I will take your "this is the standard, there is the door" approach eventually. I will give her some time to see if she adjusts on her own before taking that approach. For now, I am taking the Bob Pure route which is much gentler, but harder on me.

Bear,

Taking Bobs approach is probably a good idea. I did not have to pursuade H to want to remian in the marriage..he never wanted out..I only had to enforce a standard.

Perhaps Bob could mentor you through this? Have you considerred asking?

Noodle

Noodle- Thanks, I'll drop him a note. From the posts I've read of his, i don't know if I can meet that high a standard. I have the heart to try.

Last night was DDay2. I found out that WW had a ONS (she still claims) with someone I know 2 years ago. She also had a ONS (or weekend stand) with some guy she hooked up with when she was in Vegas for a weekend last March. That brings the total to 3 PA's in the 4+ yrs of M.

She is a serial cheater and I am almost sure our M is over. I don't think I can overcome this. Plus I have to pull these things out of her, she will not volunteer this info. I found out through other sources. I pleaded with her to tell me everything, if there were any more, tell me now. She said that was everything. I can't believe her.

This M would be over if not for 2 yr old son. (A's happened post birth and he is my spittin' image, so I am comfortable there). I don't know what to do. Should I stick it out for his sake. I can't let WW get custody of him. The multitude of guys he would be exposed to, IMO. I can't let him be raised by someone so callous as to betray not only me, but him as well.

Help guide me through this. I think the odds are slim that she would not cheat on me in future. She is getting professional help for this self esteem, or sex problem, or whatever it is. I just have no faith in her right now.

Immediately I am doing nothing rash. I am not plan A, plan B, nothing as I have not decided what to do. I am going to give myself some time, a month maybe, to decide if I really want to be M to this woman and, more importantly, what are the effects going to be on my son.

Your guidance is welcomed.

Bear,

Sorry to hear about the new update! I think it is wise that you have decided to step back for a month to evaluate your feelings and to reflect on what you want. Ulitmately and you already know this the decision to stay in the M is your and your alone.

Sorry to hear about this news. Your in my prayers, Native

What do I do now? On one hand, I don't want to be w/someone who treats me the way she did. This whole time, up til last spring, when I kinda sensed problems, I thought our M was good. Turns out there were 2 A sprinkled in there. The best part, WW didn't consider them A's, they were just "mistakes" she made.

On the other hand, I still do love and care for her. I don't want to lose my family, seeing my son everyday, and everything we have. I tell myself, this is what is meant when you said your vows "...through good times and bad..." well, it's bad. If she just came to me and said, "I don't want to lose you, I want our M to work. I am so sorry for what I have done to you. I will never do that to you again. Let's get the help we need and rebuild our M." I would do it. Unfortunately, she is foggy, or maybe just not the person I thought she was.

I will say that the fog seemed to clear on Saturday. We talked about us and I asked her questions, not about A's, rather more about beliefs and stuff. I asked her something, she said, "Why didn't you talk to me like this a couple of months ago." I replied that this is the first time in a couple months she has ever been this open with me, that before she would have just bit my head off. She agreed. Towards the end of the day our convo escalted to fighting, again. I said STOP. I do not want to fight with you. I am calling a truce, she laughed, I said, no serious. I am putting away my weapons, for good (by that I meant from now on, not just at that moment). She didn't believe me. I stopped, then she did, and we haven't fought since.

I have promised myself that I would not bring up any relationship talk for at least 2 months, and no more talk of her A's, only if she brings them up. I know all I need to, I just hope she told me everything.

I was thinking this morning of forgiving her, not now, but I know someday I will need to do that, for myself. Wherever I may end up, I will need to do that in order to go on. I also need to do that for her.

WW had a lifelong GF from out of back this weekend. Friday they didn't go out because of, well, our all night Dday2. Here is the thing, Saturday night she said to me, "GF called, wanted to know if I wanted to go out. Can I go out with her? I didn't know if you would let me." I said, of course you can WW, she is your friend and she is home one weekend a year. Have a good time and tell her hi from me. She asked my permission again last night. "GF just called, they (GF & her B) are going to XXXXX. Would you have a problem if I went." No, I wouldn't have a problem with that, have a good time.

This woman has been talking to others about D'ing me, taking my son, etc., yet she continues to ask my permission to go out with friends. She doesn't want me mad at her. I think if she were really ready for our M to be over, she wouldn't give a crap.

Another thing she said Saturday. "It seems that there is nothing I can't do to you and you won't leave me. I could kill someone and you would want to work it out (our R)." I asked if that meant she thought she had license to run around on me and I would do nothing. She said no, I am not going to do that to you.

My response to this was, what can I do, what consequence? Leave, break up, divorce? Then everything we have would be gone (house, everything we've built together), I wouldn't get to see son everyday, I would be saying goodbye to my whole life (For the last 10 years my life has revolved around her family and her hometown as we live here rather than my hometown). Is that the answer to this? I didn't answer the question, just left the thought hanging. Honestly, I don't know either.

WW and son are back at home. We sleep in different rooms, but are nice to each other. I don't want to be roomates though. I want much more. For now, I guess I have decided to go back into plan A. I still don't know if I want this M, but I am not ready to make a decision, I want to see more. I have to put in the time and effort. I could not live with myself if I didn't. It may just be I decide I don't want a life with her after all she's done. The only good things are she is getting professional help for herself (not our M, she said, but help for herself is help for our M, the way I see it) and she continues to seek my approval or permission to do things.

Long post, thanks for hanging in there. I can expand in further detail if anyone has questions, I am sure you will.

Bear,

I don't want to put a downer on this, I just want you to be careful. As many other posters have said, believe less than 90% of what the WS says. Their actions speak louder than words. If you WW is asking others on how to D you, yet she asks you to go out. There in lies the conflict. Your WW knows that by being nice to you she will most likely get what she wants. Now she could just go without asking you but then you wouldn't be nice to her when she got back. I really hope I'm wrong in all this but only you can be the judge as you know you W the best.

I just don't want to see you get hurt again, although during all this I'm afraid that is nearly impossible. Like you said your not ready to give up just yet. That is yours and yours alone. Good luck

Native

I thought about that exact topic. What's with the duality? It is not just the asking to go out, that was just an example, there are other things as well. I think the talk with others is just that, talk, tough talk. I can say I did the same thing myself to people I've talked to. "If she doesn't do this, why, I am going to leave her blah,blah,blah..."

Here are the facts, things I can see: Has moved back home (said it was under the premise that I forced her because our son needed to come home, get stability), said countless times, "I'll do the right thing, that's what everyone wants, for the child, etc" (see the post on one of your threads about this justification for returning), continues IC & MC (haven't been to MC together in a while though, MC wanted to see WW alone for the time being), asks permission to do things, doesn't want to cross me.

These don't seem like much, but they are a start. The big thing dragging me down. Thinks that she shouldn't have to give me all her passwords as she should have some privacy. (Bad thing is our MC agrees with this that she should have some private areas from me. Whether this deals with a specific thing like cell phone password I will ask the MC.)

I'll keep working on that. I do see her side though. She thinks that our R would turn into a prison of me checking up on her all the time. I see it from the perspective that I need to feel safe that she isn't backsliding. I can really see both sides, I wouldn't want a spouse who has zero trust in me. The whole deal is, how does she regain that trust and prove it to me. She basically says she doesn't want me around, why would she try to do anything to save our M. Maybe I ought to just forget all this, go plan B so she can live her dream. After that, plan D and getting on with my life. Mood swing, could you tell?

My feelings today. I am torn. Trying to convince myself to stay, or leave, I don't know. I, for some reason, do not have a "poor me attitude". I feel sorry for WW. I feel completely defrauded.

Torn because I take my marriage vows so seriously "...in good times and bad..." and also my young son's future is at stake. Yes, I feel that way about him growing up in a broken home. I feel that I have made choices and commitments that I should live with and not transfer to a child.

Can I be happy with my wife? Yes. I think so. Would I be happier with a M that hasn't been stained badly? Of course.

My problem is I do not feel I should have to live with knowing that I have shared my W with 3 OM (that I know of). I didn't deserve this. I don't know if I can live always having to look over my shoulder, wondering if she is up to no good. It would also help if WW would warm up, tell me she loves me, shows me she loves me. Still not sure if she wants to be married to me. Oh well.

I am going to keep hanging in there so someday I can look at myself and say I tried, I can look at my son and say I tried. I've got time. Maybe WW will suprise me, maybe I'll suprise myself, maybe I will trust her again someday. I guess we'll see.

Somebody please tell me that this is worth it. I need reassurance right now.


*When refering to W I use the term WW rather than FWW because I am not sure if she is done lying to me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thinks that she shouldn't have to give me all her passwords as she should have some privacy. (Bad thing is our MC agrees with this that she should have some private areas from me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You might try pointing out both to the MC and your wife that privacy is fine, but you will not tolerate secrecy. Verification of NC is essential in rebuilding trust.

Believe me, plan on pointing that out to MC. Have already stated to WW, didn't get to far. Either she has stuff to hide. Or she is not liking having to go the extra yard.

Sounds like a dealbreaker. Is there any legitimate reason for withholding passwords other than to reserve the right to have contact? I can't think of one.

Can't think of one either. WW did tell me it smacks of control. In a normal pre-A M, I might have agreed. Of course I had total trust then. Now, I am different...changed.

I must admit I get a bit confused when the 'control' accusation rears its ugly head.

It might be interesting to find out which particular passwords are an issue; all of them or only some of them?

Sometimes I think they just want to retain an escape hatch; like when you quit smoking you still carry that single cigarette around but never light it.

I don't really know. I have the password to her email account. She still uses it, knows I have it and has not changed it. I don't really bother looking. Her A's were never a computer thing. Besides, as I pointed out to her, she could just set up another email account I don't know about, so what's the point. I told her, whatever, I can't control you, you can do whatever you want and I can't stop you, and won't, but you'll have to live with that.

The stickler is her cell phone account password. This is the means by which she had kept her most recent A going by breaking NC. She told my SIL that she had changed the password and that she has not given it to me...yet. I wonder what that means? Maybe it is a control thing for her, that she wants to feel like she is doing some altruistic thing by giving it to me rather than feeling forced to hand it over. I really don't care because I'm not going to obsess over it. I'm getting to the point where this is my life, I am going to take control of it, if she wants to be in it, great, if not, see ya.

Bear,

I re-read your story just now so I could try and understand where your at. It sounds to me like your still in Plan A and your wife is showing a little softening. I don't think that passwords should be an issue at this point. It doesn't sound to me like she completely trusts you yet so she's keeping her options open.

Your situation is somewhat different than a lot of others here in that there is not a specific OP that you need to be concerned about. I understand that your concerned her misbehaving. If something happens you want to know so right away so you can do what you need to do.

I guess the only thing I would advise is to keep Plan A'ing as long as it's showing progress. It sounds like your wife is still angry and withdrawn. Your Plan A will hopefully bring her gradually towards you.

As regards the 'control' thing, I think there is an article on MBs somewhere regarding control. It sounds like your wife is similar to mine in that she has a problem with anger and what she perceives as anyone trying to control her. I haven't quite figured this one out yet except that if she says something about control then I respond with concern. "You feel like I'm trying to control you?" I try to discuss it with her because if that is how she feels then it is a problem and I let her know that I'm trying to understand how she feels. Maybe it comes under the category of an annoying habit that I need to change.

Hope this helps. Keep us posted.