You are right, passwords aren't the issue and I realized that a couple of days ago. What they represent to me is knowledge. She did a lot of crap to me, for years, that I had no clue about and couldn't really tell happened. They were skeletons she buried in her closet.

Here is the breakdown from our M so far. These issues she has started years before, before I even met her. My belief, and this comes from what I have heard her say to me and others, is that she has always been afraid that she could never be faithful.

Our current problems started when our son was born. Big changes, big pressures. She had that ONS when he was 10 months old. The next ONS (that I know about) came one year later, and then a full blown A started a month after that with another guy.

That first ONS had to have an effect and was baggage she carried around and was the start of that invisible wall between us, the next ONS was easy because she had done it before and thought I would never find out. The A was just the next step.

Now, these are my opinions. I'm sure WW's would be different. If she was sooo unhappy with me for sooo long (2 years). Why not just leave?

And I agree with you about her softening up, slowly. And, what a hoot, I have to regain her trust! Isn't life grand. I do understand what you mean by that, trust that I can be an H to depend on. In my defense, I wasn't that bad of a H, relatively speaking. Sure I had my shortcomings, and this site, more than any counselor, has helped me see what they are. I am working on them.

When I drive home from work, I think of LB's from the past. Say to myself, ooowww, that WAS bad, why did I do that to her? These revelations will either help me now, or in a future relationship. I am still on the fence about this M as of now.

Right, I see what you mean about her trusting you. Sorry. It's probably my own situation showing through. 'Safety' is probably what we're really talking about here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am still on the fence </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can certainly understand you being on the fence. Why should you commit when she won't?
But for it to work someone has to lead the way.

You're thinking of your family and what's best for them. Of course, what is best for your son is to have two parents who are in love with each other. I think you have to do everything in your power to try and make that happen. If it doesn't work then so be it.

She has to change. I think she knows that she needs to change and it's really up to her to make that happen. The only thing you can do is try and create conditions that are conducive to her making the the changes that she needs.

Faith is a wonderful thing, brother!

Are you sure you are a "junior member", you make a lot of sense. Still on fence, yes, but I am also working to create a safe environment at home. No LB's, I try to not treat her any differently (rudeness, etc). I shoulder more responsibility with our son (which is fun, plus I ask myself each time I give him bath or something if this is the last time...), keep things cleaned up best I can, etc. Would love to be affectionate, but she's not ready, and neither am I. I just fear getting stuck in a rut of becoming roomates.

I started lurking here 3 years ago when I was going through hell. I've only started posting lately.

Sounds to me like your on the right road. Give it time. Work on becoming irresistible <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Have you delved at all into her fear of not being able to remain faithful?

No. For right now I stay away from relationship talk or anything heavy like that. She is seeing an IC for exactly those issues.

During Dday2 i told her I was scared for her. Whether we work out or not she needed to get help because what she did/was doing was messed up. LB, but the truth. She said she knows she is F'd up and that is why she is getting help.

<small>[ December 23, 2004, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: Bear04 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> No. For right now I stay away from relationship talk or anything heavy like that </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is wise of you.
But do you have any inkling as to what is behind this fear?

Yes. Her parents. Growing up, when she was in 3rd grade her dad left her mom for about a year. Also, he was a truck driver and wasn't around much. Also, he had another A when she was in college before we met. Now, her pops has really changed and they are still M and appear very happy. He also takes a lot of blame for what has happened to all his kids (2 of her brothers have had A's, 1 divorced, out of wedlock children). So that family isn't perfect. None are.

WW gets real p!ssed and is now resentful of my family. Calls us the Cleavers. Funny, she liked them before.

This is her anger coming out, resentment. What she fails to remember is that she is a part of this family. Also, I have not exposed to my P's. She keeps telling me I am ashamed to, like she is trying to break that Cleaver mystique. Get real, my P's would support me, in fact they know the D rate, my mom already said she expects one of her sons to get D. I do not expose because, first it would do nothing to stop her from contact, second it makes recovery sooo much harder and I want to spare her that.

So there is a few things.

That's interesting, like she feels that her and her family don't measure up to yours. Probably not much that you can do about.

Hang in there. You're doing good.

Well, my plan A work must be having some affect. WW (FWW now?) asked me why I was bieng so nice, that it was bothering her, why was I doing it, etc. Responded that I really wasn't sure what she wanted. She complains to me about being nice? Would she rather have me be a jerk all day, walk around all depressed, rail on her from morn til night about her A, be nosy and insecure? I would rather just be a nice person, do nice things for her and treat her well. If she wants me to be a jerk, I'll be a jerk for her, if that is what she wants. I didn't know that being an a** was so attractive to her.

I think she understood after that, and probably appreciated it abit. She softened. Then Xmas rolled around, got her a nice gift, she got me nothing, said she thought we wouldn't exchange gifts. No matter to me, she didn't need to get me anything, really not bother. Later that day, she was starting to get peaved. I got her something, she got me nothing, how does that make her feel. Told her it was OK, she didn't need to get me anything, I knew that going in, I wasn't expecting anything. Did she like what I got her? Yes. Then that was gift enough for me. She kept after it. So I told her, fine, if you don't want what I got you I can take it back, I have 30 days to return it...she didn't want me to take it back. Fine with me.

Then, she was upset about how much I bought for family this Xmas. I was overdoing it, wasn't it a bit much. Maybe I did, but I really didn't spend that much. A new TV to replace the one that petered out on us about 4 months ago and other things for the house that we have needed for some time. Things to make life a little better for all of us. Accused me of trying to buy her back. That I got all these things and that we didn't even know what we were going to do (about us). I told her, First, I am not trying to buy you back, or charm you back, or whatever. The way I see it, SHE should be the one trying to get back into my good graces and winning me back. She said. well you haven't even decided that you wanted to remain M to me, you said that last week. I replied, FWW, what I want from our M, whether I decide I want to stay M to you depends upon you and what you do. Right now you haven't shown me anything, you have done little to nothing to show me that you you want this M. If I get treated like crap, you run around on me, etc. then, NO, I don't want to be M to you. She told me that I had a part in the A, I was at fault as well (paraphrased there). Replied, that we had problems in M, I did things I wish I could take back. But how could I share any blame for deciding to have an A if I knew nothing about it to begin with. That was her decision. Told her that if she was unhappy she should have came to me and said, Honey, i am unhappy, we need counseling, or I want a D. She didn't do that, instead she wanted to have the best of both worlds. that decision was all hers. SHe replied that, yes, it was a mistake and that if she could, she would go back and do things differently.

Up until this time, conversation was low, not heated. Then she started in about me not trusting her, like I should just automatically trust her again. She doesn't quite get this yet. She destroyed any trust I had in her. She said we need to talk about it. Replied, what is there to talk about, you think we can just have a convo and at the end I'll be like, OK I trust you again. Doesn't happen that way, it takes time. She replied with something like her being able to trust me. That is when I got peaved and broke out a few F-bombs. Told her she was driving me Fing crazy, what does she want, if she doesn't want me, leave, go, I am not going to stop her, let me get on with my life if she thinks we can't have a happy M, just quit driving me Fing crazy.

Also, she accused me of trying to break the password on her cell phone account locking it up. Actually, I didn't lock it up. Told her if I did I would just tell her. Why try to hide that, plus i shouldn't have to break into it, she should give me the password. She replied privacy blah,blah,blah. I said, she sees it that way, and probably just sees me as trying to control her with that. I see it totally different. I see it as confirmation she's not sneaking around. I see it as a way to reassure me. Told her it really didn't matter. I wasn't going to check up on her the rest of her life. Waste of my time, I can't control her and that she was going to do whatever she wanted but would have to live with it as well. She said that she has not contacted OM and was not going to anymore. I gave her a disbelieving Uhhuh. I do believe her, but I also want her to prove that to me and not expect me to just blindly believe her.

That was the end of our convo. I felt her soften some more the rest of the day. I continued to be nice. Doing little things for her like bringing her a dish of ice cream. Just plain being nice and doing little things for her a good husband would do, things I neglected in the past. Ok maybe I am doting on her a bit, but I like it. She asked me for a back rub at the end of the night, that was nice. I could feel that she might be relieved to know that there was a chance, I wasn't just going to leave her. I think she thought I was going to, and that is why she was holding back.

Long way to go. I know a few LB's in this story, cut me some slack it was a hard week and sometimes I need to get angry with her. She wants me to get angry, to show I care. Hell, she has told me that. This was only half of my Xmas story, the conflict parts. We had many good parts that I left out.

Sounds good to me. Some LBs but on the whole you talked about how you felt and she listened.

I get confused sometimes about anger. We were seeing a MC who wasn't MB friendly and was telling me that anger is a liberating thing. I guess my take now is that it's ok to feel anger about a situation as long as you don't take it out on your spouse. And when you feel like your going to boil over and lose control, take a break and go for a walk or something. Whenever I lose control I end up looking like an idiot.

Sounds like you're doing great!

legato,

Just a thought about anger. Anger can be a liberating thing depending on what caused the anger. If it is frustration, then perhaps showing anger might relieve the frustration. However, what seems to be the consensus is that anger is a secondary emotion driven by primary ones such as: fear, pain, etc. Here anger can be very beneficial if one is in a fight, the adrenalen (sp) is flowing and a physical response is appropriate. However, fear of losing someone, the pain of losing someone, will also cause anger and clearly it is counter productive. The cause of the anger needs to be considered and addressed or the anger will cause a lot of damage to the angry person and whom ever they are angry at.

So I guess, the idea is that anger on the whole is NOT a good idea.

Actually, even in fighting anger is not a good thing. A cool focused mind is much better. So I am correcting myself. I guess only frustration does an angry outburst help and that is only true if the anger is directed at the inanimate cause such as the lawn mower not starting. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Legato you are offering some very good advice I hope Bear listens carefully to what you have said.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks, JL. We're all "just learning"

Yep, I know about that anger bit already. My anger was out of frustration and was not directed at her. It was not a "you did this and that, I hate you" anger. It was a "this sitch is so F'd up, I don't want to live like this, what do you want from me" anger. Anger that she shares. She is not happy with our sitch. It's like we are both grasping to make things work. At least I am, I hope she is.

Another thought on anger. Constant anger is not good, but if you never show your spouse you are angry, they may begin to see it as indifference and begin to wonder if you care. My WW kinda said that to me this weeekend. That I was nice and that it seemed like her sleeping around didn't bother me. I had to remind her it did, very much, but that I wasn't going to abuse her verbally/emotionally over it. Why would that make me attractive? Just told her I hurt greatly. Reminded her what I was like on dday, that it is out of my system, and wondered if she really wanted to live with me if I was going to be like that. Of course not. I think she got it.

Hi Bear, how are things, seems like they're getting a little better.


That I was nice and that it seemed like her sleeping around didn't bother me.

What kind of garbage is this?!?!? You actually had to remind her? Or have you gotten so good at detaching that she was just curious?

Native

I paraphrased there. We always refer to it as "It" when talking about A's , cheating, etc. She said that it seems like everything is OK with me. Yeah, I am just being nice, but it isn't all easy. When I am alone sometimes I grit my teeth, scream, and pound on things. I no longer cry, I am pissed. I know she is sorry, I can see her coming around, slowly. Sometimes it is like nothing happened, other times it's so freeking tense. Law & Order was on last week. It was about 2 wives teaming up to murder their WH's. We couldn't watch that in the same room.

Okay I see your point now. Well it does seem like she's coming around. That's great Bear, I feel really great for you.

Native.

Things are going OK in Bear's cave right now. FWW (I'll give her that designation from now on) and I talk a little more each day. She also can tolerate being around me now and I can physically touch her w/o her recoiling. Gave her another backrub last night, that felt good.

I don't know how she really feels. Probably having as hard of a time as me. When do we get to the fun parts of recovery and forgiveness and making up and the things that go along with making up (you know what I mean).

I know, everyone is different. For some it's weeks, other's months, some over a year. I'm just reallllly getting anxious.