Bear, take a deep breath first. Seeking information does not necessarily mean action. One, when DD happened here, I knew all my legal rights re divorce, custody, etc (I'm legally trained), so did my H and the OM's W sought legal counsel as well. The OM and I went as far to apply for an apartment together. I had money saved to tide us over. So anyone looking in would have thought that my H and I were kaput. The important thing to remember is that you two are still talking, still together and she recognizes that you are a good father. You still have a lot to work from.

I think I told you before that my H and I talked divorce. I never thought I could love him again - in that way. I mean that. We kept talking about splitting in the first two months after getting back together. You have to remain strong, don't give in to the words. Recognize the feelings, but don't give into the words.

Is there anyone else you can talk to in the meantime? You need some help to deal with the stress. I know you don't believe in medication but perhaps a short-term tranquilizer might help you until you can see your counsellor. You could talk to your family doctor.

Really thinking of you, my H is too.

Or, maybe what she needs is a removal of that support, i.e. plan B?

I always had a feeling that her and I would need to hit absolute rock bottom. I think something drastic will have to happen in order to change her course of action. She seems to really think that she is just going to take custody of DS, I pay c.s., and he will be fine throughout all this. She just doesn't get it.

BDGD- A simple thank you!

I am suprising myself here. I think it is because I have been through so much, that I was prepared, a bit, for this. No meds needed, I am level headed and in action mode. Heck, I consulted a lawyer myself. I know this is not the end of the process, only the beginning. Interesting stat, of all initial D filings, 50% don't go all the way through. 38% reconcile, 12% remarry.

I was talking with FIL about this. He said, exactly, he knows this. I read where M couples fall in & out of love minimum 3-4 times over the course of their M. Commitment is what keeps them together. I understand this, I don't think WW does. If she doesn't learn this, she is setting herself up for many broken R down the road.

Nobody for me to really talk to. What are they going to say anyway? Tough break? I know that. What I want is good advice. I have been getting that here, thank you. My MC only listens, never has given me advice. Sweet lady, but she isn't doing us any good. What we really need is a C who understand and can help us with intimacy.

This is very hard. A, then discover 2 more A. WW non responsive to me, no needs of mine being met, now I find she is contemplating filing. Love bank definitely going into the red...but willing to take deposits.

<small>[ January 06, 2005, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: Bear04 ]</small>

Remember, you just got her back. Do you really think you've had enough time to let Plan A work? I was very motivated but it took me months.

You're mad. You have a right to be but do you think you should act on it?

Plan B in my case would have been the end of it for us.

I've got tears in my eyes, but you are showing her what committment means.

Mad, no, furious, no. Disappointed, yes. Upset, yes. I don't want to plan B out of spite. I would want to plan B to get her to realize her buried feelings. I really don't want to plan B, but if that is what it is going to take, I'll tough thru it.

No, I wouldn't consider plan B unless I get served. Then it will be a big option.

I edited my post earlier, check back.

Talk with her about what you found...Radical Honesty, right?

If she is well planted on the course of D, talk with her a bit about the logistics. Let her know after the D you will be cordial, and co-parents, but not friends. The WS seem to think a D will be cordial and friendly and the door will always be open for them to step back into their old life. It can help to see the realities of what a D will start...talk out some details, get it on paper. If/When Plan B happens you can use this talk as reference, "As we talked about before, the visitation will be..."

I would continue to Plan A for a bit longer (how much longer can you last?) but Plan B is slowly encroaching.

Talking with FIL BEFORE talking with WW is an LB. What other LB's can you cut out? Are DJ's such a part of your life you are engaging in them without realizing? Are there times when you are not showing her the utmost respect?

Stillhere is right. Your WS will think that divorce, custody will be cordial. I think reality started to sink in for me when I realized the difficulties involved with my H (not money, notlogistics). I couldn't bear to think of him not being friendly, supportive, etc. That is still important to your wife, otherwise she wouldn't care about not wanting to hurt you.

As for your counsellor, you can ask them questions for advice, guidance. That might let you judge her worth and give you some indication of where you stand (i.e., what your wife has been saying and how believable it is).

Radical honesty is right but go into it prepared with what you are going to say, how you will respond. You were right not to bring it up right away. And remember, your W is still reeling from the weekend. She may need some time to calm down too.

A few questions about that post. How is talking with FIL an LB? I told him what happened. It is his daughter, his grandson. Shouldn't he know? She won't tell him anything. I asked my support system for help. Isn't your family your best support system. I seem to remember our priest in preM counseling telling us that our parents are there to guide us. I just don't see an LB here.

Radical honesty, tell her I snooped, two LB's then. If I don't snoop, I get blindsided, if I do, it's an LB. I cannot freaking win. I am just trying to protect myself. We will discuss this this weekend.

DJ's, a part of my life I don't see them. I don't. Help me here. How am I trying to force my point of view on my WW? I have not ridiculed her, told her she is crazy, treated her disrespectfully. What is it? Because I don't agree that we should get a D?

Speaking to her father is a way of undermining your relationship together. You two are the primary unit and should address new information together first. He's extended family and really, in a very conflicting position, given his relationship with her and his past indiscretions. Talking to him first might make her feel as though she is a little girl again, "Oh what are we going to do about her? The big grown up men have to solve the problem for her." I would be angry. Treat her like an adult capable of making adult choices (it got her back together with you again, didn't it?).

Concerning the D talk. How do I tell her that if she wants to proceed, then I will be asking for physical custody of DS? I have been that boy's caretaker since he started daycare. My WW was too busy with her job. The day to day upbringing of the boy was left to me. I am totally confident in laying out the facts in front of a judge and letting him decide. I would not do any worse than if we negotiated a settlement. I have kept logs, records. My BIL, her brother has told me he would testify on MY behalf that I should get custody. Her own parents concur that I have been the primary caretaker of DS. This is going to be a major LB.

No, we will be coparents, I do not want to be her friend. I can't. It will not be cordial. Does she think she can just go through all this and that I am just going to be friends?

As for snooping, own up to it. You have reason not to trust her. She can't trust herself. It won't be a deal breaker. My H snooped. Part of life. She's a big girl, she'll manage to deal with it.

From what you write, you are doing well with not being judgmental. I think that's one of the reasons I have follow your travails.

We are kind of crossing here. But, IMHO, talk about the mechanics of divorce and custody, if done in a respectful, factual way, are not LB, it's cold hard reality.

No "I'm a better parent than you. You were never there." Just cold, hard facts.

BDGD, I DO see what you are saying. She is, however, not acting at all like an adult and she is not making good decisions (was that a DJ, who am I to judge, well the rest of the pop. of our town agrees w/me). I did not ask FIL to do anything for me. I simply told him what I know. I did not ask him to make a decision for her, force her into anything. I also told him this is not what I wanted. That I did not want to D his daughter and that I am trying hard to be a great H to her. I asked him what I should do. Reply, sit tight, don't fly off the handle.

You are right, she won't see it that way. We are just conspiring to get her. So, I can talk to noone for advice? Really, how do I tell her I know she haas been talking to an attorney? Or maybe should I just ask her and see if she says yes? Is that trapping her, setting her up to fail?

I'm going to wait a few minutes before I post agian so we aren't crossed up.

Ok, processing everything here. With regards to her moving back home, this is what happened. I just told her that this was getting too hard on DS, he is having behavior problems, whiny, hitting other kids, 5 TO's per day at daycare. He could have been kicked out except our provider is aware of our sitch and what he is going through. (BTW, behavior improved 1000x and she says he is an angel once again). He needed to come home for some stability and familiar surroundings. I told her she could stay at P's if that is what she wanted. I now know that WW just saw this as a way I was trying to control her. That I just wanted to get her back home so she would be under my thumb. That is what she told her friends. Never mind that she promised me that she just needed time to think, that she would come home after 2 months, then after our remodel was complete, then it didn't happen at all. So, she says that she is home only for DS, and really doesn't want to be around me. It feels that way too, except she doesn't seem to mind when I am nice and do things for her and am a good father to our DS.

Snooping, own up to it. You're right. Cold, hard facts of D, got it. No trading barbs, just the facts and a question about how she thinks a court is going to see all this.

I don't know. Seems to me setting her up to see what she says is game playing. What if she lies? What then? Then you pull out the rabbit and say "Aha!"?

My H found a damning e-mail of mine to a GF. He just told me that he was checking (couldn't trust me) and asked me to explain it. No accusations. Not nice but not the end of the world or, more importantly, our relationship.

You know, no one says you can't judge. You're just supposed to keep the judgments to yourself if you want to rebuild.

I've got to get my kids off to school. I'll check back in a couple of hours. Take care.

Thanks for the help, I'll see you later. I wouldn't pull the rabbit out of the hat. I still wouldn't tell her what I know. If she lies, it is one of two things 1) She was just checking, doesn't want to hurt me, doesn't want me to think it is over, 2) she is intentionally hiding it from me because she wants the upper hand and wants to blinside me. Just speculating here, and I don't really like playing these stupid games. I think I'll just tell her i know, and how I know.

Thinking about everything. Maybe your discovery might actually help your relationship. What does seeking a divorce mean? She wants change. Maybe you can use this fact to convince her, or let her convince herself, that change can came about by many different ways. A discussion about going to see a lawyer might help the two of you determine what is wrong, what went wrong, and how you might be able to fix it in the future.

This may be impertinent but I have sensed through your posts that the two of you may have a somewhat "parent-child" relationship. You refer to her as "acting like a spoiled brat", she's making "childish decisions", you, her parents and the whole town knows, she's the only one who doesn't, and you've "ganged up" with her parents to get her to "see sense".

Just a thought.

Yes, bdgd had it right, talking with Dad before talking with her was the DJ, quite appropriate to talk with FIL after discussing with WW.

And DJ's being a part of your life?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She is, however, not acting at all like an adult and she is not making good decisions (was that a DJ, who am I to judge, well the rest of the pop. of our town agrees w/me). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, yes, and I should know, I was (and still am to a degree, but getting better I hope) the queen of DJ's...

DJ's permeate your entire communication with her...body language, flippant remarks, it's an attitude, and until you change your attitude, you will not be able to cut out the DJ's.

You snooped? Please, she left it out for you to find...she is hoping you will change your ways once you know she is serious...

And Plan B should not be weilded like a weapon, like you said, not used in spite, but not used to get the WS back either...it is used to remve yourself from the chaos, and preserve the love you have for her...it is for YOU.

BUT, you have probably not shown her a changed bear yet...not cut out LBs, not treated her like an adult (whether you think she acts like it or not), not treated her like a partner...it's a competition to you still, who can get hurt the least...

What more can you do to cut out LBs and fulfill those EN's.

Yes, Plan B may happen, but if you don't show the absolute BEST side of yourself before that happens...why should she want to return?