</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Bear04:
<strong> Things are going OK in Bear's cave right now. FWW (I'll give her that designation from now on) and I talk a little more each day. She also can tolerate being around me now and I can physically touch her w/o her recoiling. Gave her another backrub last night, that felt good.

I don't know how she really feels. Probably having as hard of a time as me. When do we get to the fun parts of recovery and forgiveness and making up and the things that go along with making up (you know what I mean).

I know, everyone is different. For some it's weeks, other's months, some over a year. I'm just reallllly getting anxious. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is nice to hear some good news for you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks Lemon. I started to listen to you more and stood up for myself. We still have our rough patches but it seems to be getting better.

Bear I too am very happy for you!! So is it a recovery now, or has FWW just committed to working on the M? Is she meeting your needs, remorseful? I don't mean to pry I'm just really interested since our sitchs are kinda similar.

I'm really happy for you.
Native

I think this is recovery. She swears NC, I have no evidence to contradict. I turned the corner when I decided it wasn't worth my time to play [censored] Tracy. I can control my actions, not hers. Maybe she is still cheating, I don't think so, my eyes are pretty open and I would notice. If she is, no matter, M ain't worth saving then. You know, I think that is how things changed. I became less needy (though FWW would differ) and took the attitude that she has to prove herself to me and that it was my decision whether to remain M (I think that one bothered her because she brought it up). We still fight, but I have told her enough that, yes, we are going to argue, doesn't mean it is over, doesn't mean I stop loving her. I shrug off fights better than she does. I've learned that much. Our last arguement was Sunday, feels like three months ago. Weird.

Well that's great Bear, thats a good story. Proud of you man.... looks like she finally pulled her head out and realized that the club scene is no good.

Native.

Hey Bear

I just gpot back fom vacation and missed you page, sorry mate <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

It seems much has happened for the good since the 16th december anyway for you, good !

Not sure what good a mentor I can be as a relative newbie here, but its true that I turned my plan A into a calm, loving but consistent environment for recovery once NC held. I still haven't LB'ed once since NC.

Its mebbe 'gentler' on FWS than a combative approach but its certainly been effective in my situation. And RH makes life easier as theres no lies to remember AND POJA makes life easier 'cos theres a framework for every discussion that Squid and I are both familiar with now.

At the beginning I thought RH, POJA , meetin ENs and avoiding LBs were for saints and angels certainly not me ! BUT its clear that with RH, early disclosure of sadness or issues to spouse and POJA keeping this approach up ISN'T harder on me than shouting. And I am never guilty about my treatment of Squid. Thats nice too !

if you ever think i can help email me on purebob at evomail dot co dot UK and I'll do what I can.

All blessings matey

Thanks for the post Mr. Pure. Let me give you all an update. Seems like things always happen on weekends.

Well, New Years Eve pretty much stunk. I wanted to go out and celebrate, bury 2004 as the worst year in my life, FWW did not want to go anywhere or do anything with me. Saturday, she went out with a friend for her GF's birthday. Went to a bar, got hit on by 5 guys, and OM was there.

FWW came home early, just after midnight, clearly upset and on verge of tears. After much caressing, she finally told me what was wrong. She talked to OM (Uh-oh broken NC) and wanted to go home w/him. Told me that he needed to be the voice of reason. Cried profusely and just kept saying "I didn't do anything. I don't want to hurt you." Some more of her statements: Our M is never going to work out, she can't be the wife I want. I deserve better. Always afraid she'll hurt me again. She believes she will hurt me again. She just doesn't have those feelings for me. It's not about OM. But she thinks of him all the time. It has nothing to do with him. There is no future with him. She is not going to leave me for him, she'll leave me for noone. She just wants to be alone. She just wants to be the best parent she can to our son, that is we have to split. She doesn't want to be mean to me anymore.

Much, much fog from a very confused SP. It was surreal to hear all this. I knew this talk was coming for a long time, I was prepared for it. She expected me to yell and get mad, I did not. I told her I understood that she was in a lot of pain. It hurts and I thought her pain was greater than mine. I am dealing with the betrayal, but I can forgive and she can be forgiven. But she is dealing with so many more emotions. I told her I would be there for her.

She just kept replying over and over that it would never work. I asked her if she wanted to save our M. Reply was it can never happen. Not a yes or no, just pure doubt. She feels immense guilt and knows that she will have to live with this the rest of her life.

I started by trying to convince her that it can work. Gave up on that and just tried to console, you can't reason with a fogged out spouse. I did at one time challange her a bit. Asked her, OK if you want to split, how do you want to do it? Replied that she didn't want to talk about that now, we can talk about in the morning. I said no, we aren't having that discussion. Asked me why I brought it up. I said just to see what you would say.

Sunday, we didn't discuss it. But instead of being distant, she was much softer. I know that she will never regain feelings for me while OM is stuck in her heart. She has to get over him first.

What scares me is her belief that she can never be faithful. I dismiss the fog, but am stuck on this. She hasn't demonstrated the ability to be faithful.

Nothing new happened yesterday. When FWW(?) came home from work, she changed her clothes in the bathroom with the door closed. She does this now. Doesn't want me to see her in a state of undress. I don't get this...I have seen her naked a thousand times, had sex w/her hundreds, saw her give birth to our child...and now she doesn't want to reveal herself to me? I'll never understand all this.

Needless to say, I am feeling really low, yesterday and today. I am in so much need, but get nothing in return. Oh, she is nice to me, not hateful and throwing OM in my face, just no love at all, almost businesslike. I guess I can be thankful for that as many others here are getting hurt much worse. I ask myself, is this recovery? Plan A? What stage is this? FWW broke NC this weekend for the first time in 6 weeks. He rejected her. She says that she is trying to rid herself of her feelings for him.

After reading some other posts this AM about fog/truth I wonder if my FWW is a lost cause. I wonder if my M can be saved. She is a serial cheater, I recently discovered, who has demonstrated no control of boundaries and hasn't demonstrated commitment.

I wonder now if this is a wasted effort and our M is doomed to fail. We both know that we are not going to recover until she works out her commitment issues. Gladly, she is seeing an IC for this but has told me it's too late for us and this will take years for her to work thru. Fog/truth, I don't know. She says she cares for me, doesn't want to hurt me and that is why she wants me to let her go. For the sake of my DS, I hope not, for the sake of us, I hope not. What keeps me going, why do I do it?

Thanks for listening. If there are any recovered folks out there who had these same questions, dealt with a repeated cheater and made it thru, I'd like to hear from you. Some inspiration.

Hi Bear. Time away has been good (for me). Following your problems, though.

She's doing better although it may not feel that way. What she said about thinking about "him/it(A)" is, IMHO, part of the recovery process. She has to obsess to work through all the cra! that is going on through her head. Notice how it is changing? She's beginning to take responsibility. It's not "I love him, I love him, I love him" anymore. It's "we have no future together" and "I can't trust myself". And she can't. Treat her like a recovering drug addict. She wants to return to the milieu that provided the high (the bar, with her GF, where the OM hangs out). And she did, after an absence. But what changed this time? Realization that the drug she has been addicted to IS NOT GOING TO BRING HER HAPPINESS.

And she has trusted you with that information. And she knows that she has to start making some choices. And it is overwhelming her.

She is right not to trust herself. You are right not to trust her right now. It's going to take a lot of work from both of you. But you are both at the point where you are acknowledging that fact. Good job. No one is hiding their heads in the sand.

But when she went back, she didn't participate. She came home without going to the OM or the other five who hit on her. She got an ego snack but realized it didn't fill her. She came back home to you.

Whether she had three or three hundred affairs is not that relevant. What is important is that she is being honest with you right now and she is beginning to realize the work she has to do. Remember she has had a long time of personal dishonesty and grew up in a dishonest environment (her family). She has to address years of training.

There must be something very good about her for you to put all this effort in, before and after DD. Please remember that her mind is cut in two, she hasn't changed that much but she has looked into herself and acted out the worst part of herself. With your help, and with her effort, the better part will take precedence again.

It is going to take strength from both of you. Treat your situation like it is immediately post DD. Being with you full time is so recent that she is probably only just beginning to realize the duality inside (remember when she asked for permission to go out? it is because she cannot trust herself and wants someone else to take responsibility for her). She has had a lot of opportunity to hide so far; now she cannot.

Try to give her something to look forward to while the both of you are working on what happened. Can't your in-laws take your son for a few days so you can go away? Go to a movie? You both need time together to be fresh.

This may sound artzy-phartzy but she may not want to be seen by you because she may be having trouble looking at herself through your eyes; she may feel vulnerable, naked and ugly.

Keep looking forward and up.

Oh dear. BDGD, call me selfish but I am glad to have you back here to give me insight. I hope your break went well, it is nice to get away and get away from here once in a while.

I thought a lot of the same things that you said in your post. Why would she cry, apologize profusely, and swear she didn't do anything and doesn't want to hurt me, if she doesn't love and care for me. I believe she doesn't have those *feelings* that you need to be intimate, but I think she is wrong that they will never return.

That is one of the great fears I have...that she will not fall in love with me...along with her betraying me again. I fear that as long as she believes that our M will never work, that it will never happen, it won't. Some insight into that?

Thanks.

BTW, it took a lot for her to talk to me, she finally did. I promised I wouldn't get mad, I didn't, upset, yes, hurt, yes, but mad, no. Happy she can share with me, even though it was some of the most painful things I ever heard from her. Maybe next time she will find it easier to talk to me (hope next time doesn't involve any OM).

Funny, but I think your wife is being so honest with you that you stand a great chance of recovering from all this. She has said all the same things to you that I said to my husband, perhaps even been more brutally honest than I ever was.

I wondered how I could even start MC when I was still in love with the OM. I did, and it worked. So don't worry about her having to fall out of love with the OM first. IMHO, it's important to start reparations right away. You can't go by her timelines; she will drift into being "brain-addled" at times.

One thing I found with my H is that he listened very well (as you seem to be doing) but he never questioned why when I said things. Luckily, I had a really good IC who could help me with the "why's". Don't forget to question as you console. Your respectful questions might plant some seeds that help her in her recovery.

This may sound bizarre, but the book that helped me the most to understand the dynamics of an affair and the reasons why it was so intense was Robert Greene's The Art of Seduction (you can look it up on the net). If you read it and really apply the principles you might move beyond being the "reliable fall back guy" to the proactive man who actively causes his wife to fall back in love with him. It's machiavellian, so be prepared (and don't let her see it!).

She will always feel differently about the OM. The stakes (psychologically and physically - married, children, house) were so high in comparison to when you met her that the A is light-years away from your relationship. It's going to take a lot of time for her to get used to living without the highs and lows. It took me five months of intense work to be able to look in the mirror and even feel remotely happy for even an hour. You know it's going to be tough, but you sound like a tough person.

Thank you. I will check out that book. So, listen, ask thought provoking, respectful questions, and leave my judgements and observations at the door. Plan A and treat her like I did when i just met her and was really trying to impress her. Expect nothing in return right now. That about cover it?

"Expect nothing in return"! Made me laugh (very cynically). You are so far ahead of where you were a month ago, I can't believe you said that! She's home, she's being honest with you, she's examining what she did, she's turning to you for succor and strength. Your work is paying off, your Plan A is seeing some fruition.

Yes, leave your judgments at the door. No one likes to be judged, right? Observations might help as long as they are not loaded with "you always" or "you never". She trusts you and your opinion. You and her counsellor are the only people she can turn to to discuss what is going on in her head. However, you have the advantage of being there for her daily - use it.

Must feel like you've been hit by a 10 tonne truck. You're a brave guy.

ps curious - what did you finally get her for Christmas?

Glad you asked that one. I thought long and hard and got her something that she has wanted for a long time. I necklace with two little rings on it. One for her and one for our DS with there birthstones. I wanted to get her a mother child pennant but it would have taken 8 weeks to get and you could not add additional birthstones for when you have more kids...get it.

Jewelry, yes, but appealing to her motherly side. She was upset i got it for her, of course. Made her look bad, she got me nothing. That is fine, I didn't expect anything. Just told her that it felt good getting it for her. Did she like it? That was gift enough. She really started pushing me. I got a little miffed. Told her to just accept it. She kept at me. I told her, fine, I have 30 days to return it, I would rather not. All that matters is that you like it. She said she did. End of story. She has worn it every day since. And I am so happy. Best gift I got.

I can't believe me either. I never used to be such a softy. I really, truly have learned so much through all this. I am much more sensitive to all people's needs now and I listen much better.

This is a call out to all MBers, what do I do?

Tonight I found a tablet on WWs desk (she loses the FWW moniker now), on it is two pages of notes from her consultation with a lawyer today. Everything is on there... filing procedures, division of assets, custody, process, mediation, everything!

I don't know if she is just finding out her rights or if she is going to serve me papers.

I called her parents. Told them what I found. They are against D, so am I. They and I do not know how she can afford a lawyer. They will not help and we can't think of anyone who would give her the money. Do lawyers work on a payment plan?

More immediate, why is she talking to a lawyer? Do I approach her with what I know? I am not supposed to know, snooping a little I guess.

I have no idea what course of action to take. Her father said he would talk to her and try to find out her intentions. Last he talked with her was Xmas eve when they were shopping. SHe told him that she was continuing with MC/IC. this has hit me and them from left field, though I always knew that htis could happen.

I don't know what she is thinking. Because of what she has done and me for the most part having primary responsiblity in the caring of our DS for over a year, I do have a good chance of physical custody (I consulted w/ a lawyer friend of mine that I work with, he has handled Ds).

What steps do I take now? Immediate plan B? Plan A my a** off, I've been doing that. I have not LB's in a long time. I don't know what has prompted this.

Suprisingly, I am calm. I kicked into action mode, but as I type, I am starting to unravel a bit.

What should I do?

Just talked with WW. Not about what I know about her visit with lawyer. It was about the events of this weekend. WW sees me as a roomate, we coexist, she does not have romantic feelings for me at all. She doesn't see me that way. She doesn't want to hurt me, but she doesn't think these feelings will ever return. Never is a pretty strong word was my response. We don't know how we will feel in the future. She just said she doesn't see it happening. She also said that she has felt this way for a long time.

Fogbabble. I don't know. In the babble there is always some truth. There is truth to what she said about our past. My take, I think the A has caused her to feel great guilt and that she doesn't think feelings can return. That may be me making a judgement that I shouldn't make. Otherwise, this is classic babble that i have heard repeated all over this board.

We agreed to talk more this weekend. I just don't want her to rush into a D without giving us recovery time and a chance for those feelings to return. One thing I do feel. I feel she does love and care for me, so she doesn't want to hurt me and thinks this may be the best way to not hurt me in the future. I don't agree. I cannot convince her to have feelings for me. Since my plan A really isn't that much different from how I treated he throughout our M (I really am good to her) I don't see how I can bring those feelings back.

I do think what happened this weekend is what spurred this call to a lawyer. She is not leaving me for OM. He doesn't want a R, she knows that, I know that, everyone knows that.

Bear, can't you call your counsellor and request an emergency meeting with your and your W together?

That is a good idea. WW's father is also going to talk to her today and find out what her intentions are. Thank you.

Is there anything I should be doing, any action to take? How does this fit into the framework of the MB principles?

Great, MC out of office until next Tuesday.

Feeling a little hopeless here. Seems everywhere I turn for support, I feel like I am not a high priority.

<small>[ January 06, 2005, 08:56 AM: Message edited by: Bear04 ]</small>

Bear,

My guess is that she has not made any firm decision. It's one thing to talk to a lawyer and take some notes but another to follow through. I don't see why she would go through with a divorce. You have a child together. She's not in love with someone else.

She doesn't think that she can get those feelings back but she's wrong about that. And it doesn't matter whether she thinks she can or not. It will happen with no effort on her part whatsoever.

Unless there is something very strange going on here she will feel love for you again if you continue meeting her needs.