Parent-child, I wouldn't say that, other than she acts like a child, IMO, me-me-me. She defers a lot of decisions to me, from the SUV I helped her get a few months ago, to our home purchase way back when, 401k elections, how much to set aside, to where to eat dinner much of the time. Trust me, I do not force my choices on her, in fact, I really left her in the wind on her SUV buy and just supported her decision, a decision that took about 4 days to make and was a good one BTW, she is very happy with it.

A DJ is a DJ even if I keep it to myself? I can see your side when you say talking to FIL prior to her was disrespectful. I was, however, not tattling, I was seeking advice on what to do and just telling him what is going on. We formulated no plot to keep her with me. I just didn't know what to do and wanted advice before I did something stupid.

So then I should respect her decision to solve our M problems by having multiple A's. Her decision to want a D (appear to) despite the harm it will cause our DS after having been home all of 2 1/2 weeks. Telling me, it's just not working out. It's been two weeks! To not respect them, to call them flat wrong is a DJ? To hear her say I-I-I-I, me-me-me-me and think of noone but herself. Not just my opinion either, many people see the same things from her. To say she is acting childish is a DJ?

It is when I do something to try to force her to change, that is when it becomes a DJ, right? When I commit an act to force something upon her. Did I do that? I have been very aware of myself to try to not do that. To try to not tell her how to think, feel. I did do that, she said so in MC.

She tells me her issue is not with me, not about me. She just falt doesn't have the urge to SF with me. She doesn't see me that way. Whether that's fog, doesn't matter it is reality to her. According to her, there is no fire in our M, I agree. But there ain't gonna be fire for me if you got a BF on the side, right.

Some more to add. I do not make off the cuff hurtful remarks. In fact, I think before I speak, now, wasn't always true. A D to get my attention to show me she is serious, please, I think the A did a good job of getting my attention.

Plan B, no, I thought I said that wasn't an option now. If she files, I will need to go plan B, why, well I really don't want to live with someone who just told me they want me out of their life, permanently, BTW I am taking you son, oh, and here's the bill. Kinda gonna need plan B to protect myself.

I hear ya, I do, going to throw more wood in the fire to think about...

I like your plan for Plan B.

And do DJ's hurt if htey are never said out loud? YES! They permeate out of EVERY pore of your body, you hide your true feelings, if you can, then move to Hollywood. You don't need to use words to make DJ's they will come out in your actions, or inactions.

Parent-child relationship...yes, that's it exactly, and how do you get out of this habit? It has taken over your M up till now, and will take an overhaul to get rid of, and replace those DJ's.

Do you have to support her decisions? NO! But you have to respect them...give her the same respect you would give a coworker that was making a bad decision in her life...you let her know you think it's not wise, why you think that, but you can't do ANYTHING to stop her, just sit back and watch, and be there for her. Set boundaries for yourself, and then when it becomes too much, get out of there...Plan B. And when it is a decision that effects you, protect yourself and your child.

Read the 2x4 I received in my sig line...really, I've been here...

Still-- I get the thing with DJ's, even thinking them, eventually they will come out. Avoiding DJ's are easy, I remember, when we were fresh in love. Either that or they just slid right off ya cause you didn't really care.

I do have a hard time with respecting her decisions. I know I don't support it, but respect it? Respect something so blatently against my beliefs. That one is sticking me a bit.

BTW, I do not want to brag, but it has been a tough 24 hrs, I really, really watch all the LB's have been very conscience. This AM got up at 5:45, shoveled the walk (couple inches of snow), cleaned of WW SUV, started it, got it warmed up for her. Plan A, even in the face of a D, and it felt good to do it.

I guess I have to disagree here. Respect fog-filled, unthinking, fantasy-based decisions? No way!

"Yes, dear, it's shredding my guts that you decided to have an affair but I respect your decision."

Nope, not me. The best I can muster is to not comment on WW bad decisions. Just bite my tongue and suck it up. But if she asks how I feel then I will tell her honestly how I feel, respectfully.

Just my 2 pennies...

OK, it's semantics and wordplay really...what she is doing is wrong...you would never do that...and it is hurtful and you won't support it...but what can you do about it? Are you going to beat her up? Stand in front of the door so she can't leave? Hide the phone so she can't call? Yell at her every time she is with him? Shake some sense into her? NO!! Very disrespectful... You have NO control over her decisions, but you CAN respect HER, and in so doing, respecting the choices she is making...you don't agree with them, you will protect yourself from them, you will tell her how harful they are to you and the family, but other than that, what can you do...

Respect is where you allow a person to be on equal standing with you.

I am the WORST at looking down on my H, thinking of him as a child, I have to fight EVERY day to become more equal in my thinking... If he decided to leave me tomorrow, I'd have to respect that, pick up the pieces of where I lay and go on with my life...hopefully that wouldn't happen and I am changing and our home is MUCH more peaceful than it was.

When I read someone making innocuous DJs, I like to point them out...most times I get an argument..."What? That is a DJ?" Yep, clearing off her car and starting it for her is a DJ. Did you ask her if she wanted it done? OR did you just do it...there is a difference, although the outcome may have been the same. By just DOING it you are saying to her she can't take care of herself and needs someone to take of her and that perhaps you are doing this nice thing because you want something in return. BUT if you had asked, and she said "Yes", it gives the power to her of whether to accept the help at that moment, instead of it getting forced on her...

You sound like you are really trying in Plan A.
It will take some real SHIFTS in thinking to get over these DJs though...I'm still trying...

That one is new. Clearing the snow off the car is a DJ. Around here that is like opening the door for a lady. But, I did ask for her keys and if she wanted it started, yes was the answer.

My feelings for the day. I am very confused today and having a hard time. This AM I started my WW car for her since it is near zero. Asked her if she would like me to because I was going out to get my truck started, she said yes. When we (DS & I, taking him to daycare) were getting ready to leave, WW was giving DS a hug and kiss. She looked sooo beautiful today (she does everyday, but something about this morning...) and as I looked at her, it was like getting hit by a thunderbolt. I cannot ever remember feeling that strong of a feeling. It nearly dropped me to the floor. I don't know if it was just the way she looked so beautiful or the interaction with DS, or a combination.

Anyways, I think I screwed up. As I took DS from her arms and told her goodbye for the day, I put my hand on her shoulder and told her she looked beuatiful today. Then as we walked away, I stammered well...you look beautiful everyday, I mean...just something about you today. She just replied uh-huh, Ok.

I didn't really think about it til I got in the car, and then the tears started to come. I was being genuine, sincere. I said what I said and didn't even know I said it until I heard it come out of my mouth. She just dismissed it, "whatever", and thought I was patronizing her, sucking up. I am so stupid. Why did I do that? All I did was set myself back here, I know it. I just came of as the needy groveling STBXH (God I hope not) to her.

I cried pretty good on the way to work and am choking back tears now. I can really see myself sitting alone in an empty apartment w/her gone.

Plan A, last night. I am being very good, no LB's and I try to meet her EN's, pick up after myself, keep house clean, tend to an play with DS (not hard to do). One of them is conversation. When I talk to her, try to engage her, it is like talking to the dog. I get one word, short responses and find myself struggling to even find a topic of conversation. We have nothing in common except our DS, and how much can we really talk about there. Nothing in common because I do not know whatt is going on in her life (other than our R, A's, etc, and those are topics I can't discuss daily). I ask her open ended questions, What was you day like? Fine. ANything interesting happen? No. How were the roads? Good. Stonewalled.

So then we don't talk, just coexist, exactly what our problem is. One time, in the recent weeks I asked her after getting frustrated with this why she won't talk to me. Reply, because I don't want to.

Can someone give me some help with this? I just got an email from her, I 'll post it:

* K and S (GF's of hers) both emailed me today and wanted to know if I wanted to go to the hockey game and dinner this Saturday since we couldn’t go last Saturday. I know it’s 2 weekends in a row, but I haven’t done anything with both of them since October. My mom could probably watch DS if you wanted to go out or something since she has nephew this weekend. Please let me know today so I can let the girls know for sure. Thanks*

Leading seperate lives, our first great downfall. Of course I am not going to reply NO (Controlling as hell). I would love to do something with my WW. I played hockey for 16yrs growing up and haven't bee to a game in years. This would be so much fun. Totally excluded, totally rejected. To be expected. Any tips how to word a reply? I am not going to ask myself along, of course, but, damn, this is really sucking. It is like she is forcing us into living seperate lives. I know when I ask her how the game was she'll say "fine" and stonewall me again w/one word answers.

And what is with asking my permission? WHy the F would she care if she was thinking of filing for D?

I just don't know. Trying to stick to the plan, but it is very hard.

That post was long so I broke them up. Right now I am asking myself these questions:

Why did WW stop being "in love" w/me?
What could I have done to change things (then/now)?
What did OM give her that I am not?
What are her top EN's? How can I meet them?

I am alsofiguring out my feelings and what to say when we have our R talk we have planned for this weekend. All I really want from her is a commitment to give us time to work on M and get whatever help we need, and be open.

Sidenote. Last night BIL called me. TOld me about WW talking to OM this past weekend. I said, yes, I know, WW told me about it. What she didn't tell me is what OM said to her "Get the F away from me." Nice huh?

Excellent, asking her to do things for her...BIG marks in the plus column.

Conversation seems to be one of her top EN's (one of mine too) and it is not uncommon for her NOT to want you to meet it right now...

She is trying VERY hard not to love you.

The flattery, neediness that you THINK you are showing is Plan A, and is sinking in down there...keep it up.

Help with conversation...the day to day questions about "How was your day?" are Booooring, expected, and too easy to shrug away. Some ideas...

Ask her some harmless, in-depth questions, like...

What was your favorite toy when you were young?
What is the funniest memory you remember about our child being born?

Tell me a joke...
If you had a magic genie, what would be your first wish?


A great resource for this is the Book of Questions. You see, when I say my need for conversation is high, and I complained to my H for years I wanted him to talk to me, that wasn't exactly true...I wanted to talk to him, and I wanted to feel listened to...which meant (and I had to be very clear with my H)...

To be in the same room, in close proximity, looking at me.
To give indications I was listening (ever had a phone conversation with someone who says nothing? Unnerving)
To add insight into the conversation without adding advice or taking over the conversation...asking questions.


As far as going to the hockey game without you...a possible scenario could be you saying (or emailing.)

"That sounds like fun. Catch a puck for me... Although I haven't been to game in years and used to play, wonder what it's like these days (hint, hint). Maybe Sunday we can do something just the two of us...brunch at that favorite restaurant of yours...or out for coffee after church."

She is fighting hard to not love you...make it tough.

Shower her with more affection and flattery...it's the little things...

<small>[ January 07, 2005, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: StillHereMakingIt ]</small>

Stillhere is giving you good advice. Conversation becomes much more meaningful for a woman if you address her feelings, you know, the "why" questions, "how did that make you feel?". Information is only important in that it elicits an emotional response that is heard and received by the listener. It means you truly care about how she feels, what she thinks. No advice, no judgments, no "you should have" or "you could have".

Telling a woman that she is beautiful is NEVER the wrong thing to do. Meaning it so badly you stammer is ALWAYS the right thing to do. She may not be ready to believe it, but again, she will process it, she will have felt your sincerity. You may want to repeat it later but tell her specifically what you found beautiful. The light on her skin and hair, the tenderness she showed to your son, the tought that you might lose her beauty....Words are so important to a woman.

Take the hockey game as an opportunity to suggest something together (she suggested the babysitting, you stay in Saturday night, use your MIL Sunday to take care of your DS). You might want to try something active given your current distance. A lunch or coffee might be too intense. Maybe ice skating together? Something alongs those lines? You two can talk if you want to but there is something else to do. I know I've said this before but those joint times together will help the two of you to start building a fresh history to share together, to talk about, to plan for, to look forward to.

Bear, my H absolutely shocked me once during our getting back together. I started talking about what went wrong. He stopped and simply LISTENED. Twenty minutes. No comments. I remember his face; it was the hardest thing I think I have seen him do. He just listened; no comments. He went away afterwards (I guess to gather himself). I forgot what I said to him, but I remember him listening.

Thank you for the conversation ice breakers. Getting that book (or one like it) today. Funny, i had written out a reply but hadn't sent it. It was practically the same as yours, except for the invitation to breakfast, which I added.

Thanks.

I felt like such an idiot for what I said this morning because once, a while back post dday, we were sitting next to each other, I was looking at her and she asked me "What?". I just said, you look very pretty. She told me to stop it, I was pressing, trying to hard. In a later, well, spewing fog arguement episode, she brought that up and times when I have asked her questions about her day and stuff. Just chastised me, told me how phony it was, how forced it sounded. I admitted it was forced and that it is hard to prompt conversation with the fear of being shut down, which I know is going to happen.

It's like cold calling in sales. The constant rejection really gets to you, but you have to keep calling. So I continue, daily, to ask her how her day was and other questions, continually getting shut down. I am getting that book of questions, and throwing her some curves, new questions. I do just want to sit there and listen to her talk...it has been so long.

Thanks for the advice. I am going to fill out her EN sheet today. I'd rather have her do it but that isn't happening right now. So I will give it my best shot. I would like some pointers on things I can do to meet these needs. I'll check back.

Thanks

Bear,

I think it's like everyone says; she is in withdrawl and trying to keep the wall up between you and her.

I used to have this problem with my wife. I didn't pay attention to her until she became ineterested in someone else. Then she looked so good to me! I tried to engage her in conversation and she felt like I was smothering her and trying to hard. So I backed off a little since that seemed to be what she needed.

So, I don't know if that helps...

I understand how you feel about pouring out your honest feeling about her beauty but no matter how they try to pretend that they don't care I still think it has a good effect; all women want to know that they're looking good.

You're feelings are just completely raw right now. It will get better. Unfortunately there is no BS script other than Plan A, but BS's have to do a certain amount of improvising and that entails risk of rejection.

Thank you for all your help.

Her response, "We could probably do breakfast Sunday morning, can talk about it later. Have a good day, too."

Maybe I could also suggest an activity for us after breakfast. Shopping perhaps, I used to love to shop with her. I loved it when she would try on stuff and ask my opinion. We used to buy stuff just to take it back. That was what it was like when we were "in love".

Legato- I do back off, and I understand the smothering thing. I think, however, the whole smothering claim is just a WS defense mechanism, kinda like the fog. Ok, the WS does not really want to be reminded of the BS, remember it is me-me time, the BS is getting in the way. You are smothering me, give me space. Translate I don't want to deal w/you right now, if you just go away I can forget about you. So we back off, just what they want. Am I all wrong here? I do understand that the WS needs time to process things as well. SO it is a delicate balance.

Women, any other time it's "you never pay attention to me". I, as a man, will NEVER figure it all out. Ladies, guide me through this.

Another idea to poke at you.

When my H does something sweet, unexpected, and totally unlike him out of the blue, I sometimes get angry...because I am reminded of all the times he DIDN'T do that before, and now I know he is CAPABLE of doing it...I wonder what kept him from it again... it hurt.

She is testing you, doesn't beleive that statement or behavior is sincere or will last...

When you get her scorn like this, say to her, "I know I've not said/done this enough in the past and I'm sorry, it is not because I didn't feel like saying/doing it, it was because I took you for granted. I am trying not to take you for granted any longer and I want to ..... more. I know that only repeated action on my part will help you beleive I am sincere, and I am trying."

Right! Unwavering, consistent effort to demonstrate real change will chip away at the wall.

Bought this book over lunch, "4,000 questions for getting to know anyone and everyone". Figured 4,000, must be a few I could ask. This book is good. I flipped through some questions, they range from things you can talk about w/total stranger to things you might only feel comfortable with confessing to your priest.

But, as I asked the questions, I thought about WW's answer. You know, I didn't know a lot of them and we've been together 11 years! Questions like, "what did you want to grow up to be when you were a child?". I don't know her answer. I think I should, but I don't. It's like the Newlywed Game in a book.

Sounds like a cool book.

You might also try telling her a story about yourself that she doesn't know; something funny maybe.