Bear

reading your last post something really hit me about it.

All those things you are feeling and thinking, you should be telling your FWW.

I mean if she wants M then she has to work at it and that means changing her life to show she wants you, her child and the whole thing.

What have you got now? A room mate who spends more time away from you & your child than not??

Mate its time you started to sit down and have some serious discussions with your W, The M is going one way or the other, isnt this behaviour, you avoiding the issues and she doing what she wants which led to her A in the first place??
I have to ask whats changed??

Ok friend in Hospital etc might be a bit different but you are clearly sayings its a pattern just repeating itself.
Frankly she needs to start picking up her half of the M or maybe she should leave and not with your son!

I think you need to set some boundaries......she does not go out with her 'friends' without you...thats like inviting another A, she goes NO where if you both dont agree on it - the POJA thing - she opens up all her life to you to show you she can earn your trust back but it binds you too in the things you do in your M.

She starts sharing the workload, haven't you just taken over as the babysitter from her parents?? Maybe its tough love time bear........maybe you say MC with steve harley is a condition as well, fill out the EN questionnaire if you have not yet together.......
man you can't let it wander on like this for much longer.
Dont avoid this anymore.

Your son does not need a physcial and mental wreck as a Dad.

If there is no improvement after talking and trying to get it together, perhaps she needs to move out and you do a Plan B - keeping your son with you the stable parent - if nothing else is working.

Well good luck

Hi Bear

Aussie is spot on there.

My Squid spent as much time as she could away from me in the first 2 months or so after D-day. ANYTHING to get out of my presence and , I guess, to keep calling OM.

I ATTRACTED her back into our lives. Took the kids out a LOT to do EXCELLENT things, took them to our holiday home at weekends so we came back with stories of fun, made sure that the house and kids were always on top form, clean, fed, happy etc. And I did all that with a smile on my face and INVITED Squid to join us if she chose. Freakin' hard work I tell you.

Mostly for a couple of months she chose to go out clubbing with friends or to Karate events or...sit at home listening to our clock tick while we had fun.

Slowly she started to come out with us and I KEPT UP the 'we're having a nice time' vibe because, well, we WERE.

This behaviour was GREAT for me because I proved to myself we could not just cope without her but that I could THRIVE without her. It was also great for the kids at a very traumatic time for them. I became the dad I should've been all along. Squid tells me now it was a bit scary to feel so redundant and also very attractive to see me at such ease with running our life.

And it was GREAT for MB too. PERFECT Plan A support. Squid chose to sit on the sidelines sulking , looking at the great life she was leaving behind.

So FIRST came REINVOLVEMENT with our family. She slowly started to behave like a mother again. I left domestic stuff for her to do and asked her nicely. She started to do it. She came out with us, came also to our holiday home. She became more of a mother and wife in actions that in many many months. She started to have fun, we started to laugh and play when we went out ! That was a lovely phase. First hopeful one.

Soon we did projects together - building and fitting new storage in my son's room. We had a BLAST doing that and we were proud of our work afterwards.

Now Squid tells me she ACHED for me to put my arm around her while we were doing that work, because she loved doing it and loved me investing in our lives. All the time I am loving but no 'ILY' or physical affection. Both were rejected early on and I thought it good to let Squid reinitiate such.

OK its now three months after d-day and Squid is enjoying our life, we're having adventures as a family : she is picking up the domestic chores she abandoned before and during her affair. And whistling while she does them !

Then while we are in a pub with friends near our holiday home we bump into each other near the restrooms by accident and she holds me and kisses me like her life depends on it. LOTS of SF that night, and for the next, well, for ever it seems now ! She became very needful of very passionate SF.

She tells me she couldn't hold back any longer, she felt 'loveless' and felt overwhelming attraction for me and had a need for me to hold her. She felt it earlier while we were doing the storage project, but didn't say anything in case she was fooling herself.

OK so by now she is wonderful mother, a domestic goddess, very passionate sexually and in physical intimacy but is she working on recovery yet ? Nope.

On that base of renewed love and rebuilding trust we start intimate discussions about our situation. I have documented these here a lot. VERY VERY slowly the discussions edge Squid into thinking we can't just forget her infidelity. No LBs remember but I am totally candid about how I feel. She is really upet by much of this, but doesn;t sulk or ignore it. We just take it slowly. And all the time our lives are still fun, I am still contributing massively to the running of our home ( I really didn't pre-A, I just worked for the man <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ). We make a happy team running our lives and we both enjoy it !

The discussion intimacy cements our love, she tells me ILY LOTS Now and shows it too.

While I am in Vegas, Squid is reading NH/HN and torn asunder as homework. Thats the first real hard contribution to recovery Squid has made.

So Bear, long post but U see even in MY enviable situation, FWS contributing to your life and your recovery is not instant or even assured. I truly believe that had I not been so capable and cheery while I really wanted to die, we would not have moved forward so quickly.

Its very soon after d-day for you both Bear, you have to know that your FWW isn't capable of a healthy relationship with ANYONE right now.

Cheer up and don't do stuff 'at' her to win her back. Just do attractive stuff consistently and she will notice eventually. Show her what you offer.

Its a heroes gig, br'a, you have to do stuff that doesn't feel right, but you can do it.Stay strong, carry yourself cheerfully and do not be needful of your FWW.

All blessings mate

Rereading my last post, I want to clarify something. I do not mind taking care of DS. My FWW commutes 1h 15min each way every day. I only commute 45 min each way. I do have less travel time. Part of being M is shouldering responsibilities, splitting up the family duties. I see part of my task as being on daycare detail. Where I have my issue is when FWW thinks her career is more important than family that she works late. Or, when she does have the opportunity to come home, she instead chooses to go out and eat with a couple of friends. The fact that I get no thank you's, or a hug, kiss, any affection or love really ticks me off.

Right now I do understand the lack of affection. We aren't that far removed from Dday. But at least some recognition, appreciation for what I do would be nice. I feel like a freaking nanny right now. I suppose we'll have to have this discussion this weekend. I don't want to for a couple reasons I'll keep to myself for right now.

This morning was just a rant. Things will get better. We do have to work out of this rut we are in.

Bob Pure- I do these things because I have to. Because I have always done them and if I don't, then they won't get done. I did them pre A as well, so this is no change for me. Do I mind doing them? No. I would just like a thank you.

I will not lie. It does make it harder to be the domestic when you are not getting any of the fun half of the married life.

"All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy."

Think I'll rent The Shining this weekend.

**Edit**
P.S. I don't feel real needful of my W right now. That is the problem for me. My feelings are getting sort of, blah, towards her. That is why I am angry and a bit frightened. I am feeling more resentment.

<small>[ January 14, 2005, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: Bear04 ]</small>

Bear I know U did and still do the mechanics. My point was about the cheerful atitude. I just don't se much joy in it from you. No smiles.

And I got thanks after some months. 2 months aftare d-day my FWW was still delivering the most vicious fog babble on earth.

I got no fun from married life either for ages, so I made my own with my kids and my friends and magically I started having REAL fun.

Being upbeat worked for me. I guess thats all I'm saying with my lots of words.

I hear what you are saying. Last night was the first night where there wasn't lots of smiles. I had a bad day and it all is just really getting to me.

Hey Bear, instead of "The Shining" why not rent a really stupid comedy? Don't cook dinner. After your son is in bed tell her you were thinking of ordering a pizza (too pooped from the week to cook) and watching "X". Don't ask her if she wants to, just go ahead and do it.

"Shaun of the Dead" is really stupid and really violent so you'll get the best of both worlds - with or without her! Your self-sufficient and up beat attiude (no matter how feigned) might pay off with an at-home date. A really different movie might pique her interest and give you something to discuss together.

Just an idea ...

Actually, I was just thinking of that and I was thinking od asking her out for dinner. Nothing romantic, just out.

The reasons I suggested a rented movie in are: you control what is to be viewed, therefore you get to show yourself to be an interesting person if you choose something foreign or exotic (i.e. festival),and, if your offer is declined, you don't seem so needy as if you had specifically asked her for her company. I know these have been concerns of hers. Also, a movie night in is really stress free - no forced conversation over the table, no pulling teeth - but you can ask her opinion of the movie as it goes along.

My H brings home the most interesting DVDs, movies, documentaries, foreign films, concerts. It's his way of tickling both our minds on a relaxing Friday night. Gives us a common frame of reference. Fulfils a couple of criteria in the Art of Seduction ... Let me know what you decide.

Do you realize you have people from all over the world communicating with you on this? How fabulous!

Yeah, quite the trip isn't it?

So I ask her if she would like to go out for dinner when I get home. Response. FWW:Why? ME:Well, just to get out. FWW:Are we taking DS? ME:Your choice. Depends on if your mom will watch him or if you want him to go or not. FWW:Why? ME:Because I am tired of eating at home this week and I would like to eat out. FWW:I guess.

Real freaking stimulating. One of her complaints to our MC is that I never wanted to do anything, never took her out, was a tight a**, just wanted to sit at home. Well, now whenever I ask her out this is what I get.

Why do I even f'ing bother?

Rant over.

BDGD- I have brought home a movie before, asked her if she wanted to watch it with me. FWW:No.

I felt like things were getting a little better between us. I guess not.

Bear, cheer up mate. Your mood is self-reinforcing. Your FWW isn't rejecting your offers of doing stuff ,she isn't able to process them. She only has peripheral vision. And all she sees right now is your grumpiness.

Gentle 2x4 there but CHEER UP ! Its good for YOU, great plan A and makes life better while you await the next milestone.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Weekend update. A little uneventful except I learned a few more things. Friday, we ended up staying in. I was freezing cold and FWW did not want to take DS out anywhere. I agreed, though I still think this is a built in excuse for her not to do anything with me. Actually, it was a great night. We ate, then watched the Bond marathon on Encore. FWW started feeling sick so she took a nap on the couch. DS and I played and played. Then he sat on my lap and we read nine bedtime story books. DS finally fell asleep, still watching Bond movies, about 11:30 at night.

Saturday night I asked FWW again if she wanted to go out, she did not. I went out anyway with BIL. We sat at home til about 11 PM and watched the football game and the three of us FWW, BIL, and I sat around and talked and had a few beers. We actually ran out, so I went and got more beer. I was having a good time just sitting there talking and didn't really want to go. We got home at 2AM.

What I heard when I was out that night that upset me. FWW told some of her friends earlier in the week that she had asked me for a D and that I am in denial. She told them it was over. This is news to me. She has told me that she doesn't know if she will ever be 'in love' with me again. She is filled with doubt and despair. I think that is about natural at this point in recovery. She has never flat asked me for a D though. Why would she say these things? Is she just 'talking tough' to a few of her GFs?

I really ask myself if I am just wasting my time. We are never going to recover if we both aren't committed to the work that it takes. With her attitude now, that won't happen. By her saying what she is, she is not approaching this with an open mind or heart.

Bear,

I don't think that all is lost here but it may get worse before it gets better.

As you say, one person cannot do it all alone. But it may take her awhile to realize what she really wants. You must lead the way here. You must try and banish your doubt. You've got to keep your story consistent. You love your wife, in spite of everything, and you want to spend the rest of your life with her. If this is not how you feel, then how can you expect her to have any faith in your marriage?

She may leave; she may start divorce proceedings. She may do all kinds of things but you stay the course. You want to save your marriage therefore, do those things that increase the chances of making that happen.

As far as her telling friends something that is clearly not true one idea that occurs to me is that she has probably done a lot of talking about how horrible you are so, in order to justify her staying and not look foolish she puts the blame on you; "I asked him for a divorce but he's in denial". It's nonsense. She has never asked you for a divorce.

And yes, one could say that you are in denial. You don't accept that your marriage is over. Good for you! That's what it's going to take to save your marriage. That's what fighting for your family and marriage is about! Denying that it's over; denying that there is no hope; denying that it's not worth it. It is worth it. It's worth it because, if for nothing else, your son is going to have a better chance in his life if he has two parents that are in love with each other.

No matter what she does or decides, your goal remains the same. Try to fill her needs as best as you can. Try to remain upbeat. Try to make the home pleasant and fun. Try and not worry about your needs. Keep your Taker under control. If she leaves, then you need to view that as a step along the way; just part of the process of her missing you and finding out what she really wants.

She does not know what she wants right now. She probably thinks that you are the source of all of her unhappiness. You have probably caused her unhappiness in the past and that cannot be changed. But you need to try and change what is happening now. If she leaves then she will remember what is going on right now so try and make it as good as you can make it.

Think of it as if everytime you see her she is taking a snapshot of you. If she leaves she will be pulling up those snapshots from time to time and remembering. You need to make those snapshots someone that she misses. When you're with her now you've got to be "on". It might seem unnatural at first and she will probably try to shoot you down and say something negative; that's her job, to try and discourage you. But you have your job to do and that is to not show any discouragement and stay up. It's OK to have private doubts. Take those to God and ask for His help but don't let her see them. It's not her business.

This is hard work but it can be done. But you're going to have lead the way. Then it's her choice to either follow or go off on her own path.

Legato, Bob- I hear what both of you are saying about this taking time and that my FWW is going to have these episodes and that I have to ride them out. I also want to assure you that I am still doing a good plan A. I am upbeat, engaging, energetic, etc. around FWW. In fact I am like that most of the time. I do get discouraged, angry, etc. but that is human. Most of the time when I post here it is to vent, it is therapeautic. Maybe I don't tell the whole story here, such is how people act. You want to here some good things?

I said how I played woth DS and read him 9 books. Well, FWW made a comment to me about me reading all those books to him. She also found a toy that DS and I searched the house for when we were playing but never found. I think that when FWW was resting on the couch, I thought she was sleeping, I think she was listening to us the whole time.

Also, last night we had a wonderful dinner that FWW and I prepared and invited MIL over to eat. We are doing very well in the getting along together. We do not fight, I haven't brought up A talk since before Xmas. We last had R talk a few weeks ago, nothing had really changed. I am not going to continually talk and ask for updates, I am going to watch and listen and live the evolution of our R.

Question for FWW, did the site of your H, when you were in w/d-to-recovery stage, in the total nude getting out of shower, toweling off, etc. do anything to you? I ask because I was getting ready this morning, FWW was in front of sink, I had to walk around, usually she gets clear out of way, today we brushed, my...errr...frontside to her backside, she was fully clothed. I just found it weird because lately she would fall over herself to get out of my way. Not today. Or maybe it was just me. She still won't stare directly at me though. I wish we could just...oh well.

Bear I tried to tell you that in my own sitch, it took SIX MONTHS for any serious work to be don eon recovery by Squid.

SIX MONTHS. In the last month only. I can't speak for your FWW but it typically takes a while for a FWW to get past the overwhelming sensation sof withdrawal and just afterwards.

But you do what you think is best.

I felt just as dispairing for the same reasons from time to time but I'm really glad I struck with it.

What you do is up to you mate.

All blessings

Bob, I am not bailing out here. I am sticking with it. Just wanted you all to know that sometimes I blow steam here on the boards and sound very frustrated, but that I use this as my release, get it out of my system, and can then get back to focusing on plan A, etc.

I know mate but REAL advice from me, vent in a detached way, don't allude to giving up even in a vent. Its self reinforcing.

I almost talked myself into a D several times when I just needed to shout.

{{{{bear}}}}

AHHH, I see what you are saying.

Did you go out on the town when you were in my sitch? I ask because the last couple weeks I have been going out on Saturday nights. It has helped me. I always ask FWW if she wants to go out and do something. I would love to go out with her. But she says no, and tells me I can go out if I want to. Don't know if she is hoping I hook up with someone else, or what. I don't think so as she already said that she would be very hurt if I were to do something like she has done. Don't worry, I won't.