OW gave WH a lovely key to her house. I want to take it. What do you think?

Would be pretty funny if you got a key with the same kind of shape, but cut a little different so he thinks she changed the locks on him.

HC,
You're sliding down the slippery slope. Letter to OW, taking his key, all things out of your control. Plan A is really about you understanding what YOU can control.

The actions you are taking will only drive WH further away.

These are attempts on your part to control the situation, and the more control you try to exercise, the worse things will get.

I realize you feel like you have to do these things, you're hurting, I understand fully.

What is YOUR plan ?

I think if it were me I would take the key.
I do also agree with betrayedinjeresy. I don't know...I guess I would have to really think about this one.
He's going to find a way to see her regardless....key or no key!
I just get so mad that all of us here have to go through this crap! We don't deserve this!!!!!

Actually, I didn't take it. Stealing, even something as revolting as that, was too much for me. I'm trying to take control.

We had one of our late night discussions. It's too hard when he disappears for a couple days and then waltzes in like nothings happened. Like we got into freeze mode or something.

How 'bout this idea, Carol - get a blank and leave it uncut. But both keys on a single key ring and give it to him, saying he "misplaced" these. "The blank one is the key to our new marriage - please, let's get it cut together to unlock our future. You only have to decide which key you want to rely on."

<small>[ December 14, 2004, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

Carol...

I think WAT's idea is great.

I found the cell phone OW gave WH. I knew about it for a short time, but told myself it was an old work cell phone.

At first I couldn't get any numbers to come up on it. But with DD's suggestions, there they all were.

I ended up taking it. Of course, WH said nothing to me about it. I gave it back to him (mostly because it didn't belong to me, and I don't steal), and also told him that I knew he had another one (which I found in the same place in his car).

The whole thing ended up giving me information I didn't have before, but also ended up costing me personally.

I feel really bad about how I have found out some of the info I have about WH and OW. This situation has made me do things that are totally out of character for me. That's what makes me feel the worst.

Use WAT's idea. It's totally MB.

K

This discussion raises a question I've been pondering for a while. There's an old saying about all being fair "in love and war." Does that apply to As as well?

What I mean is this: I've read a lot of posts here in which people have expressed no qualms at all about snooping, secretly recording phone calls or having people followed. Basically, the sentiment is that information is valuable no matter HOW you go about getting it. The ends justify the means.

Under this way of thinking, Carol should secretly have a second key made. Then she could "drop in" on the lovers sometime.

But...then I read posts like K7's which come from a position of real integrity. There's a sense that while the information you may get is valuable, the deception used to get that information cheapens you...and really, it brings you to the level of the people involved in the A.

I think I'm on the fence about this. While I definitely see the value of information, I'm not sure that I am willing to go to any length to get it. Maybe that makes me naive. I don't know.

I'm interested to hear how others feel about this.

<small>[ December 14, 2004, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: AndrewA ]</small>

Sometimes, I feel really slimey. I hate what this affair has led me to do. I don't like snooping, prying and all the information gathering. It doesn't feel right. On the other hand, if I hadn't snooped would I still be in that clueless zone of knowing somethings wrong but can't pin it down? By nature, I'm an analyist. WH is a black hole. Sometimes I feel like I just need more data. Sometimes, I try to convince myself that I know more than enough, that I should leave it alone.

Actually, maybe that's the next step. It seems there are 3 ways to go: 1) trust is rebuilt and you don't feel the need to snoop or the information is freely given 2) there is no trust and you feel you have to keep snooping to know what's going on or 3) you decide you have enough data, don't care anymore and let go. Do you think that's true?

HC,

I think you've identifed the choices. Like you, I'm pretty much an analyst. I can't help it: I want to understand everything. I think that life should make sense - and I always think that the next bit of information I get will be the one that puts the puzzle together.

So, my natural instinct is to assume that I NEVER have enough information about anything. It's taken a Herculean effort for me to let go of a lot of things conencted with the A and to admit that I'm probably never going to understand it.

Having said that...my approach to information gathering is probably summed up by the phrase "Trust, but verify." So..when my wife says that she is going to a seminar at college in the evening. I say "fine, bring me back a flyer."

I'm lucky, I guess: my wife is willing to do whatever it takes to put me at ease. Still, I am determined never to go back to that blissfully ignorant space I lived in before. If my gut tells me something is wrong...I will question it and I will probably do whatever I have to do to get the information I need.

I guess that means that I agree with those who say that a spouse forfeits a claim to privacy after an A. His or her life should become an open book - and he or she really shouldn't complain about snooping.

<small>[ December 14, 2004, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: AndrewA ]</small>

Hmmm...this is one of those quandries that probably doesn't have a pat answer. I can only offer what I did when faced with this situation. First I learned how to hack computers to gather information and how to riffle papers. Also how to check pagers and look for messages.

As for more concrete things...a few things I left be, such as things on H desk at work that OW gave him. But even so, I did finally reach my limits. OW gave him a bird ornament that she painted, I was told that everyone in the office got one at christmas...I offered to ask and see but got met with resistance. I told him it was inappropriate and I took it; he asked and I told him the truth, then I tossed it in the trash. I also pulled a myriad of 'love' note stickies off of his papers and trashed them. I accidentally found a CD of love songs that she gave him and it accidentally met with a very sharp object...CD's do scratch. After I found out that he was sharing our CD's with OW I took them to work with me.

Also when visiting his office, there seemed to always be long stemmed red roses in the woman's bathroom. She was the only woman there so it wasn't hard to figure out where they came from...they ended up crumpled and in the trash.

I guess this is one of those intent sort of things. I was not trying to control anyone's behavior. I was asserting myself and letting them both know that I was on to them and I did not approve. I did draw the line however with things that were brought in to our home. I told him point blank that I did not care what he did, but when it was at a place where it could affect our children that is where I drew the line and anything I found would be destroyed. Hence the notes and CD....and once I was strong enough to call him on it I told him that I wanted the rest of OUR CD's back and OUR pictures, OUR book that he gave her to read...and started inserting myself into their world.

I sent him funny cards at work, even a valentine once as she got the mail, called him and asked him out on dates as she answered the phone. Made him a lovely xstitch picture with a note handwritten on the back for him to display in his office.

By then I had gotten to the point that whatever happened I was prepared for, but I was not just going to stand back and watch. I didn't attack them so much as I made myself more apparent; a constant reminder that H was married and had a family that loved and wanted him.

Wow, Victoria! You go girl! You put my feelings and actions into words. I sent OW a letter because I wanted her to know that WH came from a family that loved him and wanted him. That he wasn't up for grabs. The little poacher.... I called her after I caught WH on the phone to her because I wanted her to know that I knew and that it most definitely wasn't okay. That I'm not rolling over dead. There is a CD he owns that will be toast very soon. Will accidently meet with a sharp object. I just want a little control. To "insert myself into their world" as you say.

So, Victoria, where are you at in the scheme of things now? NC? Recovery? You felt your tactics worked?

I'd go with exposure here..make a copy for anyone who counts..including her boss. You stride in there..tell her boss she is having an A with your H and ask him to return her housekey to her. One for her parents..one for her H..etc..then take out an add in the paper letting her know..where she can obtain all of the copies and do be more carefull as you just never really know how many copies a person has made or where they may end up.

Noodle

So if you go with WAT's idea about 2 keys on a keychain and K's idea about using the key to get more info....well... somebody could end up in jail right?

OWs are notorious for giving away their housekeys (aka: accidently leaving it in the WS' vehicle), for 'someone' to use. Then blame someone or someone else of breaking and entering! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Remember that piece.

Hence my suggestion is to put the key back in a place where he will find it. AFTER you file parts of the key down and rub out the new filings. Then the key won't work but at least he will have 'the key'. LOL!!! That matches fog logic. Have an M that doesn't work (due to the A)!@?@!?@?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

L.

Oh Noodle, that is sooo funny (in a sad sort of way of course)!

Carol ~ well I sort of knew the outcome before it ended as I knew my H. That is why I could do the things that I did; I knew basically how he would react. That is really the key...how well do you know your spouse?

The A was over, according to H 4 years ago, 9 mths after it started, although she continued to call him periodically up until the time he moved here in Oct of last year. How she knew where he was is a puzzlement to both of us as we had sold our house and he had moved until he finished his work obligations. She was in contact with his boss however and we think that is how she got the information. There was never an official NC, as for an extended period they continued to work in the same office. My H took the initiative and worked at home and then was moved to a totally different office; then an opportunity arose for me to take a different job in another state and we agreed to make the move to further distance ourselves from the situation.

I did not know that the A was over or the true extent of it, until a year and a half later when I told my H that I had had it with him (he was still withdrawn from us) and was making plans to move out. So I guess my actions had the desired affect. These 4 years have had their ups and downs that is for sure, mostly because of me, but the relationship that we now have is much superior to the one we left behind. We have discovered the importance of being friends.

<small>[ December 14, 2004, 12:38 PM: Message edited by: victoria farrar ]</small>

Worthatry...
That is a GREAT idea. I wish I would have thought of that a long time ago. It probably wouldn't have made a difference anyway.
I like the analogy though.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then she could "drop in" on the lovers sometime.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I could be wrong, but the snooping, spyware, recording devices should only be used prior to DDAY to gather proof/evidence. Without it, you'll never get anywhere.

After that point, the only thing you have to gain is additional pain....but this time, brought on by your own actions. Remember basic theory, for every action, there is an equal or opposite reaction.

All the confrontations in the world during Plan A won't do a thing about getting the WS to end the affair, this is why Plan B exists.

I think if you know the outcome, i.e. you know at the end of the tunnel, you'll be divorcing this person, your actions have nothing to gain, nothing to lose, if it makes you feel better, ok....but if you have an objective..... every single thing you do counts...either positively..or negatively.

Although it sounds attractive, this goes against the whole "lighthouse" theory that seems to win more times than not. The aftermath of DDAY is extreme chaos, all around... if the BS contributes to the chaos...how will the WS ever find their way home ?

Just something to think about folks.
Merely my opinion..of course. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by betrayedinjersey:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then she could "drop in" on the lovers sometime.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I could be wrong, but the snooping, spyware, recording devices should only be used prior to DDAY to gather proof/evidence. Without it, you'll never get anywhere.

After that point, the only thing you have to gain is additional pain....but this time, brought on by your own actions. Remember basic theory, for every action, there is an equal or opposite reaction.

All the confrontations in the world during Plan A won't do a thing about getting the WS to end the affair, this is why Plan B exists.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Interesting opinion here. Can't say I agree at all, but interesting nonetheless. I think your reasoning is flawed.....and your lack of a false recovery frames your view. Nothing at all wrong with that, but it just amkes your opinion that much easier to understand. Just as my opinion to kick the repeating unfaithful WS to the curb so easily...when I don't have finances or children to consider.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think your reasoning is flawed </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And I completely respect the difference of opinion.

But we're not speaking of someone in recovery. This is a WS still very deep in an A. He hasn't waved a white flag of surrender.

I think there's a profound difference.

With that being said....in the case that you haven't reached recovery yet, you're still in Plan A, possibly preparing for Plan B....

how many times is it necessary to prove the A ?

What exactly does one hope to accomplish by "dropping in" on the lovers ?

I can assure you the result won't be the desired outcome.

From all I've read, seen, watched.... it really only FUELS the A. Giving the WS "validation" that the BS is unreasonable.

But I'll stick with my knee jerk reaction...if you've successfully proved an A once...what's the effect of proving it repeatedly ? To prove continued contact? What if the WS has never give an indication that there was NC... status quo...let's say.... what is the gain.... now I'm really interested in your thought on this.

Remember awhile back...I said there was a profound difference between recovery...and Plan A.

well prior to Dday it would have been hard for me to have done anything as I did not even suspect an A. Afterward...after I had calmed myself and was no longer acting on sheer emotion I continued to gather information, not evidence, so I could proceed in a manner that counteracted whatever the OW was doing. She became accusatory, I became the best friend...she pushed, I was the easygoing one...she lied/he lied...the usual things. And it did not cause me pain...after awhile I found their exchanges quite comical and juvenile and was able to say 'whatever' and go on with my life. Because of what I knew, I could see the direction their relationship was taking...that was of great value as far as I am concerned.

That being that my H never left our home, I couldn't have gotten him out if I had lit a bomb under him. I learned how to talk to him, made him look me in the eye when we had a conversation. Was very calm and understanding..pointing out gently the flaws in his thinking. I also made it perfectly clear that he could leave if he wished and that I would go on perfectly well without him. I called him on his lies and told him that at least if he was going to do it, be honest about it like he told me he was going to.

I took control of my actions...I claim them and will defend them to this day...why? because I knew my H and knew what was important to him and knew that he would tire of being a person that was contrary to everything he stood for.

Oh and had it not been for family and wanting to preserve what I knew he held dear...I would also have kicked him to the curb with his suitcase right behind him...which I was told to do repeatedly by MBer's at the time, but I resisted their advice...

<small>[ December 14, 2004, 05:18 PM: Message edited by: victoria farrar ]</small>