My single 27yo daughter has just been visiting me in Hong Kong, shopping. It made me ponder Too Much Coffee Man's words; that women tend to let themselves go when they "get their man". Then almost in the same breath, he said that some wives irresponsibly run up the credit card bills with too much spending and this might be the reason that their H have an A. (not fulfiling his EN's)

So, I watched my daughter shop, on her doctors salary, and considered it poetry in motion. Men watched her, as she wove thru the streets with her self endulgent elegance and she only occassionally considered how many hours on her feet she would work to pay for the Kenneth Cole shoes (5 prs) she stowed into her suitcase when she left. (they were on sale!)

Change of circumstances: Married with children. The choice; Be a responsible wife and put your salary towards the mortgage, the car repayments the childrens shoes (god they are expensive), child care, the heating bill, the garden furniture, the this, the that - the endless costs of raising a family. Or, does a dutiful wife consider it more important to dress with style - which basically costs the price of a small country to achieve. A single girl is often the object of a married man's eye. It's the reason I'm here. Single girls know how to shop and they know how to spend money on themselves. None of which bothers a married man when it's his 'bit on the side'. But if his wife spends the same amount of money on clothes - she's not fulfilling his emotional needs.

Pls don't anyone tell me that you can dress well for little. Maybe you can if you have endless hours to hunt for bargains. But by the time you have the underwear, make up, perfume, hand bag, hosery, shoes blah blah blah - you have already spent a months income on just one outfit.
The price of women's clothes are inflated to match a single girls committment to 'the must have' syndrome.

I admit that I put myself last in our family where clothes were concerned - I simply forgot how to spend money on myself by the time we finally had some money to spare - and I could no longer rely on natural beauty to suffice. I dressed like a housefrau because I inherited my mothers sense of responsibility. We never owed a cent on the credit cards and I payed off the mortgage in 8 yrs instead of the 25 yrs we borrowed the money over. But, I dressed like Cinderella before the fairy God Mother showed up. I went without constantly, in favor of the family. And for my sacrifice? My husband spent the money I saved on a Bimbo, who strangly enough, didn't give a sh*t about our family finance's - which made me wonder why I had bothered?

If I had my time over again, I would run up the credit cards and put myself first. Because this is what gains you respect - how you look and how your treat yourself.

IMHO
AN

I have to say that you have some very good points here. I would say that very often it's the commitment and support of the family that is very often the thing that can put a family in jeopardy. How ironic, huh? Same can be said for some men, though.

Financial Support is an important EN to be filled for some women. Their husband's work long hours to achieve it...you know the story.

I wouldn't go so far as to say to run up the credit card bills <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> , but there's something to be said for paying yourself first and they worrying about everything else. If all it can be is buying yourself a new bottle of nail-polish once a month, then that's what it is.

Anyname,

I so agree with this right now. I spent all my money since my DD was born on investments. Never on clothes, a nice looking vehicle or on fun trips for myself.

Although I am a nut about working out, I would only wear jeans and a tshirt. I just didn't see the advantage to putting money into clothes, and trips and expense hair salons.

Well no more. I was on this thread over on the emotional needs section, and every one said that clothes are very important, and men notice women in nice clothes. Well I think I look good in jeans but it really doesn't show my personality or style.

So this fall I have spent a small fortune on clothes. Beautiful clothes, and I spend alot of time on my nails and jewelry, etc.

And you know what? I don't care anymore. I am going to look drop dead gorgeous from here on out.
Screw the investments and the principal of "the clotes don't make the person". Because nobody gives a second look to even get to know your wonderful personality, big beautiful heart if it is not packaged properly.

One of my friends has four kids (single) and she spends all her money on herself, even plastic surgery to look just like Pamela Anderson, face hair and all. When I go somewhere with her I might as well be invisible. Nobody even stops to think "wow, four kids and she looks and dresses like this, what is wrong with this picture?" They just want to be close to her at any cost, and believe me it is ALL about her looks.

No more wall flower type appearance for me, my hippy, free spirit type looks are history!

When I was in my 20's I used to spend all my money and time on myself (no DD yet) and I attracted alot of attention, even at work. One time I went and lived with my uncle in Lajolla CA, he was quite wealthy lived on the water and gave me this little porche to drive while I was there. Guys just about knocked themselves out trying to get to me, I thought it was funny at the time, but now like you I think it is sad. However I am going back to those ways.

See anyname I have been pondereing this very line of thinking all fall.

I totally disagree with this and it even makes me a little angry... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

again why does everything have to so extreme...

either you spend and blow money on stuff...
OR
you dress like a housefrau...

I disagree that dressing nice costs a small fortune....

my husband wouldn't know a pair of kenneth cole shoes from payless shoe store..and neither would I....
but I know now that winter is here.... he likes my black high heeled boots and never asked 'who designed them;
and darn if this isn't the third or fourth season I've had them...and imagine he still likes him....

and I am just as happy as that way....
and plan to keep it that way.....

Pls don't anyone tell me that you can dress well for little.

beauty is in the eye of the beholder..
if people believe that it takes money and expense to create that....

I guess so be it...
but i don't buy it in written word....and I don't buy it in the consumer world......

why the extremes...
and why the belief is such extremes...that's what I really don't get..

ARK

It is true Ark. I didn't want to believe either. And NEVER have I lived it except when I was very young and quite shallow. I don't even know if Kenneth Cole shoes are high end fashion or not. We don't have any stores in the UP except Walmart and Penny's to buy clothes at, so I am no longer up on designer labels.

However, I just ordered three very pretty blouses off of ebay from Taiwan and the total was $67.00 & nice looking high heeled leather boots $27.00. Some pretty camis $60.00. Now that alone is $154.00. For lots of us, that is a small fortune and that is not even a wardrobe.

And I never thought I would ever be this shallow as to actually make a big deal about clothes but it is true. You have to look the part. Just ask JL. Personality and a pretty smile is NOT enough

Looks have a lot to do with how far you get in life, unless you are going to stay holed up in your house writing books or something. It makes me angry too, but mostly just sad. However, I am joining the crowd because I am tired of being misunderstood and of misrepresenting myself ( I wear jeans and tshirts, drive a 1990 chevy blaser but I have been all over the world and have made a few good investments which haven't paid off yet. I'm not just a wall flower, single mom hick ,bbut I realise now that is how people see me) as in people don't want to get to know you inless they like the package.

:::Although I am a nut about working out, I would only wear jeans and a tshirt. I just didn't see the advantage to putting money into clothes, and trips and expense hair salons.

Hey, Weaver, we must be very alike. I just returned from a 1.5 hour evening walk (I exercise religiously). I also have a very qwerky personality BUT oh how I let the side down by being too cheap with myself. I'm 52 on the weekend and I look at other women my age and feel sorry for the shape they are in. I only started wearing a bikini after d-day - because I realised I can.

So glad to hear the penny has dropped with you. My daughter decided this after she broke up with a long term boy friend and he was out with a new one almost immediately. She lectures me endlessly about looking after my skin. She has facials and spends a lot of money on good products for her skin. I wanna have a face lift - because I had too much sun exposure when I was a kid. So, now I feel so defeated by life, I figure, what the hell? I'm going to start buying books and learning about what's involved. I think I'm up for one face lift - and hope I can enjoy 5+ yrs of looking a bit younger. I've got great bone structure and I feel it's spoilted by the wrinkled skin. B*gger it! I wouldn't have done of any of this stuff before. But now I think, why shouldn't I? - as long as I can find someone I trust enough with a knife. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

BTW, next time you wanna shop - hop a plane to here. HK is great for shopping. My daughter filled a suit case with goodies for a fraction of the cost she'd pay in OZ or the UK.

must chat more on this subject. It's fun!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

AN

weaver ..

I'm probably end up deleting these posts...I hate to use these boards to disagree on...

I don't get it...
I barely grasp what is being said here...

but weaver what you are saying is not equal...

lets agree that for some 67.00 dollars for three blouses is a lot of money...and the other stuff...

BUT if the money situation in the home is that way...then lets say that the husband and wife are most likely NOT in high making money jobs where people are exposed on a day to day basis of being surrounded by very expensive clothes ...
peoples environments are pretty equal to their income....

and if you are married to spouse that becomes a WS because they buy the whooey of models and advertisement..the problem is not in the lack of big ticket items...the problem is that someone chose to marry someone who is very very shallow...


Looks have a lot to do with how far you get in life, unless you are going to stay holed up in your house writing books or something.

there's the extremes that make me go blahhhh...

why does one have to look good to get far in life...and why is the alternative staying holed up in a house....

and who is to say what and where is far.....

I have gone far in my career...the buck stops here supervisor in a hospital...
not on looks...

I'm not defending myself..I'm defending lots of people...who can get through life with faithful spouses and never own a pradda purse...

these posts scare me...
their impact on BS suffering compounding their low self esteem.....
people that can afford high end items....should buy them...
people that can't afford them shouldn't feel they HAVE to buy them to keep their spouses...
that's a scary slippy slope....

I dress fine for my lifestyle...in fact I would be ashamed to wear three hundred dollar shoes to work....have no need for them...what so ever...
and none of that plays a role in whether my spouse is faithful or not....
ARK

I think that we sometimes do let ourselves go after we get married and have kids. I've always been one to dress nicely cheaply. H, however, is never one to compliment not matter how I dressed. If a couple is going to something and the woman has gotten a beautiful outfit and spent a lot of time putting herself together, hubby ought to compliment. Personally, I sort of stopped making too much effort because he didn't say anything no matter what. Doesn't say anything if I'm fat or skinny, in designer clothes or rags, silk or polyester. I know, I know ENs...

I say put your money into the things that matter. Get a facial every 4-6 weeks. Find a hairdresser that works for you and get a good cut every time. Botox? Do it, if you want it. Better to have 1 pair of really good shoes than 5 from Payless. It's also amazing, if you have the time to look, what you can find in used clothing stores.

And if you're shopping in Hong Kong? Shopping in the Far East is an amazing experience. What better of a place to find bargains? Everybody spends a ton there.

Ladies, everything in moderation. One of my BIG problems with my WW is her spending habits. Tons of clothes in closet with tags still on them. Our son has tons of clothes as well. My WW makes as much or more money than I do. She drives a new SUV, I drive a 99 Ford PU (paid off next month, yeah). I pay the mortgage, insurances, etc. She chips in for utilities, and spends the rest on herself, but claims it costs so much to buy for child and gets after me for not giving her more money. Funny, I don't get to make the decision of what to buy for him, and scratch checks for $100-200 a month to pay for his clothes and such. Not to mention we are in debt up to our eyeballs and I have hardly any clothes that I can wear to work (suit, tie, and stuff). I go w/o so she can spend. My reward, her A.

I guess what I am saying is that if our M doesn't work out, a sensible woman in this area is a quality I will look for. When you are young, you see a hot girl, you just don't think how much $ it takes to look that way. Ladies, you don't have to spend a million dollars to attract the right man. If you do, is he the right man? How can you keep that up? What's going to happen when gravity starts taking its toll? I'm not saying dress like a pauper, but everything in moderation.

This is a timely topic!
No matter how I dress, I'm not going to be in any danger in a girl's school, BUT since D-Day, I've been listening to my female friends who are working a little over time on my ego.

In some ways, I'm quite lucky...the hair is all mine and none of it is grey and I've been fortunate in that I've been very active and weigh in at 130 at 5ft8 (3 months ago I was 145)
Anyways, since W's A and the pending seperation I've started to dress up instead of the casual that was my habit. Now don't laugh but with the christmas season on us there have been a lot of parties to go to and I'm wearing my kilt for all functions. What a chick magnet! It takes b*lls for a guy to wear a skirt.
The blue jeans and T-shirt with a leather bomber is now in my past. Dress pants with a blazer (no tie most of the time) is now normal for me and in my opinion, I have gone from being happily nondescript and mostly invisible to being noticed. I saw an instant change in stores, BTW, which is very telling. Good staff are trained to pick the clients who will offer the most return for time invested...(yeah I know it's just money)
My take on this is it's not the clothes per see that get noticed, it's the way we feel about ourselves when we "dress up" that others pick up on. When I first came to MB, I read a post about how to try to change yourself (I am the BS after a 28 yr M) and I read that I should get new underwear. Well did that make laugh! BUT next time I was in the store I did and I changed my style at the same time. It works! In the last 3 months, I've bought 300 pr (kidding)....
I only ever used to care that my mate found me attractive. Now my ego really appreciates it when others do, too. Maybe they always did but like most comfortable men I was paying no attention. Now I am.
BTW, a full blown kilt, jacket, shirt, tie, brogues, belt and sporran can set you back $1200 or so $CAN but you are never under dressed decked out like this and you save a little bit if you don't wear underwear <g>

So buy the clothes, shop for sales, and get your colours figured out so you can mix and match. A little can go a long way.

duh!!!!!!!!!! Brian...

If you are wearing a kilt you don't NEED underwear...

sheeeeesh...everyone knows that

ARK <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Ark,

One question -

Why when I posted that it seems to me now in my life that appearances and clothes make all the difference you chose to make it into something you found offensive. But when Brian said the exact same thing, only in different words you turned it out into humor?

I never said or implied in any way, shape or form that a spouse might cheat if their partner did not look or dress properly. I wasn't even thinking of married people. I was talking of myself and of Anynames thoughts on spending all her time and money on her family instead of her looks and herself.

I was talking about getting attention and getting noticed for who I was inside by dressing the part outside, as was Brian. You chose not to take offense to his post but apparently have taken a great deal of offense to mine.

Mostly I was talking about me, my change in perspective about people and how they view other people and my life, so why you found it so offensive, I don't know.

It was about MY realization that a person does have to dress and look the part in this world, after 20 years of denying that this is so.

Well that's it. I'm not sure that I can post here anymore. Ark and Weaver haven't heard of Kenneth Cole! What kind of place is this?

OK, 2 weeks ago my daughter made funny quivering movements as we passed a Kenneth Cole store. As one designer shop looks exactly the same as another designer shop to me and I've never stepped foot in one, ever - I was delighted to find the seating quite comfortable and my daughter was happily occuppied playing 'try on the shoes'. I was reliably informed (she's a doctor and they know everything) Kenneth Cole has been named dropped endlessly on Sex in the City, apparently. My daughter wants the final series for Christmas. Does that make her shallow? Oh I hope so. The reality is that if you ever get sick, you wanna pray that you get someone as dedicated as her, looking after you. I don't begrudge her her few moments of escapism.

Anyway Ark, I just bought some high heel boots - which I expect to wear for several years. They are narrow heals - not chunky and slightly pointed toes. I'm so modern I can hardly believe my feet! I respected everything you said... up to a point.

Brain, you are totally right. It's how what you wear makes you feel. It's the statement you make about yourself that counts. Oh, about the underpants. Ya want me to send you some Calvin Klien copies? My son asked for some - so I know they are really Kool. (how do you learn anything Brian? Without grown kids to guide me I'd be happily clueless!!!)

Your posts are hilarious btw. I hope your wife is waking up to what a delight she has living right under her nose. Your own hair. Mmm. I might rub this into FWH. He's struggling a bit with that. You are of course right. I don't waste any attention I get from the opposite sex these days. Just like you, I never let a little extra attention turn my head in the least - but now I am very gracious and beam with appreciation at being noticed. And, you know my big thing about hormones? Well, I have nothing to prove this, but I suspect that BSs give off hormones that make the OS take notice. I was really shocked how many men came onto me in the first few months after D-day. Basically we are walking bags of chemicals - and it's not all for the WSs, it's for us too. I bet I'm right! (says she humbly)

I've just had a hot toddy in celebration of your kilt - so if I'm acting overly familiar, I suggest you enjoy it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

g'nite all
Kenneth Cole and I have been the best of mates for two whole weeks. This means I'm officially one of the beautiful people!!

AN

When I was stating the obvious of women [and men] letting themselves go after marriage, I was trying to point that it was a manifestation of what was going on inside the person. A person who cares very little of his/her appearance often has [not always] a bleak view of his/her life and future as opposed to the person who cares about what goes inside his/her mouth, and wants to wear nice [though not highly expensive] clothes. Sure there are many shallow people who take care of their appearance because of their over-inflated egos, but the vast majority do so because it makes them feel good about themselves. These people are friendly, happy, optimistic about their futures, and because of this are sexual/social magnets. And I agree with Ark that looking good does not have to be expensive because I've met and talked with plenty of men and women, and are amazed on how savvy and intelligent these people really are when they've told me that fashion is not so much about price but about value [I've gotten quite a few good tips about places to go to get the most bang for my buck]. So it's not so much that 'clothes make the person' so much as 'clothes represent the person'.

TMCM

<small>[ December 14, 2004, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

LOL!!!! One of the things I bought on my shopping run yesterday was a big pack of new underwear. A new start? New underwear?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by HurtingCarol:
LOL!!!! One of the things I bought on my shopping run yesterday was a big pack of new underwear. A new start? New underwear? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep, more so if they are of the opposite sex. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

weaver I definitely agree with brians point that feeling good on the inside...is a reflection on the outside...

I don't agree that it has to be designer or expensive...or that equals success or making it...

I don't agree with the extremes either....

I also think that brians new appearance garnering 'new attention" from his female friends..... is something he should gaurd carefully against....

AND weaver you know I can't ignore a man in kilt...if you posted you were wearing the B52's band outfits to all your christmas parties for attention you know I'd comment on that as well..

weaver I have no idea how you look or dress and i think you are awesome...

this is not to say that I have a problem with people dressing or spending money to feel good....

again it's the extremes...\
stay home in a hole and write books...OR conform to a certain look to succeed...

anyname said this..

I would run up the credit cards and put myself first. Because this is what gains you respect - how you look and how your treat yourself.

how you look and how you treat yourself..two different unrelated things in my opinion...because the conclusion is that it must take a lot of money...

how discouraging for people that can't obtain those things....
guess you shouldn't marry in the first place....

weaver I think you should buy wear anything that makes you feel good...
I don't think you should define yourself to others through your clothes....

pamela anderson LOOK ALIKES...
creep me out....
why all the money to look like someone else...?

weaver I am not mad at you...that would be silly and rude of me.....
and i am not denying there is something wrong with dressing nice
or feeling good about yourself and what you are wearing..
I just hate some of the extremes presented here.......

ARK

<small>[ December 14, 2004, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]</small>

AND weaver you know I can't ignore a man in kilt...if you posted you were wearing the B5's band outfits to all your christmas parties for attention you know I'd comment on that as well..

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I think I am a person of extreme...I'm extremely emotional anyway. And I am going to devote way more time to my looks, because it's fun and I'm having a good time doing it, after all these years of not. Heck I'm having a blast just with my nails alone. And I am getting my belly button pierced <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> and don't even start on me about that.


Anyname - do you think it's a midlife crisis or something?

Let's not lose the plot though.

AN made some very good points about sacrifice and devaluation. If you cut off your arm to benefit one you loved..and in return they stared lustfully at arms and arms with bracelets no less..you'd probably feel as though your sacrifice was unappreciated.

She/I/you could have run up bank cards..dressed provocatively and expensively..caused the eyes of peers to linger..put ourselves and our entitlement issues on a pedestal. I could have been slutting it up in bars..that is what my H betrayed me for..is that what he values? Would I look better to him with less clothes on and a higher blood alcohol level? Children be damned? Would I look better to him if I rubbed drunkenly on his friends and dropped my tits in their faces at every opportunity? He would be shocked, offended and extremely put off. Why? It's me. I AM too good for Hooters..and I have no problem saying so.

She was easy sex. Predatorily so. Her looks and her actions were intentionally designed to arrange for later F'ing..nothing more. She wasn't better conversation..hadn't accomplished any great feat..just drunk and easy. And in that lifestyle..this is not only enough..this is greatness .

We see it everywhere. I didn't know who Paris Hilton was [I mean, I had a clue..last name and all]..wonderred why she was all over the media when I started watching TV again..and was suprised to find that her claim to fame was..spending other peoples money and screwing around.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> and little girls want to emulate her.

Womens liberation took a hard knock on that one. We have no one to blame but ourselves.

Not everyone though..not everyone values this. To me..she looks cheap. Spends a lot of money to look like she belongs on a street corner. Rubbing elbows with Pamela Anderson..who is an actual prostitute..and who does not seem to realize she is a joke..and I am shocked to find that apparently a lot of other women don't realize it either. Can't get to the trailer park fast enough sometimes. Even with a platinum card.

Your looks will affect your options..it really depends on where you want to go. Being overweight is probably the first rung..that will damage your ability with both dates and potential jobs. Grooming..this is trickier..too little and too much will both put you out of the running..have to aim for center.

Clothes from Target look it. It has to do with fabric and cut. No help for it. Ditto haircuts. Some are artists..some are hacks. You generally get what you pay for.

Unpleasant truth? Most people go through periods in life when even Target is expensive for them.

We have..a problem. I really think, that the lines that separate the haves and have nots are becoming ever wider. We are definitiely begining to see a peasant class..it's not new..it's another turn in the cycle. The question is where will you fall..and what will you sacrifice to have what you want. It cuts both ways.

Noodle

sorry noodle don't buy it...

I don't care how predatory the OP is...
I don't care how much money in looks or up doos or anything...
how many maritinis one can down....

WS chooses alone ....

they get no victim sign stamped on their forhead...

and the fact that there ARE people out there like that will have no effect on what I do and or don't do for myself or my children or my husband...

ark