Hi everybody

I have been lurking for a few weeks now but have only posted twice. I am BS, M 19 yrs, dday was late October, my WH is still having the A so I will be going to plan B right after Xmas.
I have a question for all BS. I have never really felt much anger towards WH, I feel REALLY SAD and CONFUSED by the way he could betray all his beliefs, at least the ones that he has always maintained he had and the incredible way his “normal” behavior has changed (he has even stopped snoring!!!!).
Thank God that I found MB and learned about the “fog”, which explained all that behavior. For me it was a relief to discover that there might be a psychological explanation for all this, plus that it IS REVERSIBLE and it was specially encouraging to read posts from exWS who could not believe the things that they had done while in the “fog” (thanks Myrta!).
Since I consider my WH’s actions and what he says a product of the fog, I CAN be amazed or surprised but NOT angry because I know that he is in this “special condition”, not the person I´ve known for so many years. Therefore I cannot ridicule him, I can only feel sorry and hope that if he ever comes out of the fog he will be able to overcome the results of this period in his life.
I don’t think it’s a game because the consequences of his infidelity are going to be very serious indeed and he will have to face them whether he likes it or not, in or out of the fog, with or without me. Maybe I’m too detached…
I know that not every WS has the same degree of “fog”, some probably don’t have any. On the other hand some people don’t believe the “fog” exists and therefore believe the WS is consciously and deliberately doing and saying whatever. Some people on this forum seem to have another impression of their WS, calling them “dorks” and other names that, IMHO show anger or ridicule. If they were divorcing I’d understand ; If they didn’t think there was a chance of recovering their marriages I would understand, but most of these people ARE TRYING to recover their marriages under very difficult conditions.
Would any of us feel comfortable if our WS read these posts where we ridicule their behavior during this period, and where everyone else (strangers to the WS) is agreeing that he/she is really a dork or *** etc?
If they don’t believe that the fog exists, why would they stay with a person who is so spiteful and horrible and says and does those terrible things?
Sometimes I am reading an old thread where this kind of attitude exists and I catch myself thinking that hopefully the BS will get rid of that stupid WS! And then I remember that they are actually in plan A and trying to make the marriage survive. This is confusing.
So, the bottom line is, do I have to HATE him and be ANGRY and call him names and ridicule him for some period of time because I was betrayed, or is it OK for me to feel very sad that he has become this alien, and hope that he becomes himself again before I lose all my love, patience and respect for him? Can this be normal or have I skipped a step in the process? Isn’t it disrespectful to ridicule a person who is obviously “not himself or herself”? Am I in denial?
Feedback from ex WS would also be appreciated.

My WS remains in the fog - 2 1/2 months post d-day and I have yet to really hit the anger stage... i'm a pretty calm person in normal life and may very well have some issues with expressing myself but I just can't force it. I'm at the point where we are going to be separating and he has done some really crappy things since d-day along with the horror of the affair -- but, no, haven't been angry - only in brief spurts. I really think it makes him feel worse though - and I don't do that on purpose - its just me. I imagine I'll hit anger at some point but right now i'm concerned about getting myself in a better place. I can't be concerned with him and his fog.

Why are you going to PLAN B after Xmas? Have you done an effective PLAN A?

What is YOUR PLAN?

BTW, ALL WSes are IN A FOG as long as they are actively involved in an A.

cc,

I had very little anger. When H was involved in his EA and was talking to me non-stop one night about how wonderful while she was, while I prepared our dinner, I wanted to just scream at him to shut up. But I didn't.

During the A I mostly felt sad and hurt. And afraid.

Then after it was over, I felt some anger two or three times but not overwhelming anger.

I *have* felt angry with myself for allowing him to treat me with such disrespect. At the time it was happening, though, I hadn't found MB and I wasn't sure how to state my negative feelings in a positive (non-LB) way. I was afraid of running him off. I've learned a lot since then <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cc46:
<strong> Some people on this forum seem to have another impression of their WS, calling them “dorks” and other names that, IMHO show anger or ridicule.

Would any of us feel comfortable if our WS read these posts where we ridicule their behavior during this period, and where everyone else (strangers to the WS) is agreeing that he/she is really a dork or *** etc? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe when we ridicule or refer to WSs - ours or others' - in unflattering terms we're addressing their actions, not necessarily their person. As you aptly asked, why would anyone want a dork?

Keep in mind one of the best uses of this forum - venting. Venting here instead of elsewhere, namly, to our WSs. Call them dorks here instead of adding to the turmoil at home.

That said, we should strive to write here in a manner expecting the targets of our tirades to someday read what we write. We take a risk if we describe them rather than describing their behavior, even though that subtlety would likely be lost on them.

But the bottom line: if we're fighting tooth and nail to restore our marriages - in spite of the emotional rape we've endured - that in itself ought to negate outbursts of frustration via "dork" or "alien" or "idiot."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by worthatry:
But the bottom line: if we're fighting tooth and nail to restore our marriages - in spite of the emotional rape we've endured - that in itself ought to negate outbursts of frustration via "dork" or "alien" or "idiot." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WAT's got this right! YES!

Pep

I havent read any names on here that even come close to what my BS called me. And you know what, I DESERVED anyone of them.

But she has had to learn not to do that anymore. Even thought anger still comes out once in a while calling names and degrading doesnt do any good at all. Yeah it might make her feel better at the time, but if its ok to call WS or FWS names to make yourself feel better, is that much better then an affair that makes the WS feel better??

Dont start bashing yet.

Just speaking from my situation, my EA was a cry for emotional attention. I needed to feel good, and my BS wasnt any help at all in that situation. I felt regected, disrespected, like I wasnt important to her. That was BEFORE my EA. I did something wrong to make myself feel better. WHile my EA was going on she would call me names. Once NC started, after a couple weeks of NC we agreed that a verbal outburst by her towards me was to fill an emotional need. It was an unhealthy way to meet that need.

While the name calling makes the BS feel better, does it really do any good at all in ending the A? I can tell you that the verbal beatdowns pushed me away.

I have found out that its best to post on here as if your WS or in my case FBS does read on here, because I have seen and heard a few things that lead me to believe that my FBS does read here once in a while.

Thats why I said it that way.

<small>[ December 14, 2004, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: john3479 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by john3479:
<strong> Yeah it might make her feel better at the time, but if its ok to call WS or FWS names to make yourself feel better, is that much better then an affair that makes the WS feel better??</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. A lot better.

But the better question is, "Which is worse?" You know the answer.

You're not serious with your question, are you John? Name calling as a result of being betrayed is on a par with the betrayal itself?

Let me say this about name calling: I coined the phrase "alien abductee" on this forum in an attempt to describe the bizarre behavior and irrational judgement of my WS. I could have used "$lut", "emotional rapist", "homewrecker", "domestic terrorist" or any other factually accurate, but derogatory term, but I didn't. Why? Because I knew these terms, while accurate for the moment, did not have to be permanent. "Alien abductee" evoked a certain involuntary aspect - not that the desision to conduct an affair was involuntary - that recognized that the trauma felt by me and my family was not her intent.

Which would you prefer as a description of WS behavior, "Homewrecker" or "alien"? One completely accurate, one kinder but bizarre?

WAT

About being serious, yes and no.

I understand the feelings that are behind it. My point is, if you are truly trying to save your marriage, think hard before you call names on here. IF your WS is fence sitting, what way do you think the name calling will send them if they happen to find this board and read it.

I am a firm believer in posting as if your spouse will read it. Sorry, but name calling in my mind falls in as a DJ. True its no where near as bad as an A, but it to can have fatal effects on recovery.

Go back and read some of my first posts when I was posting about my Ws situation with her dad. If ever there was a situation where name calling would be proper that would be a big one. This man sexualy abused my W from the age of 6 till she was 16. I could have called her all sorts of names for taking our boys into that situation. But because I wanted to save my marriage I refrained. I knew there was a chance she would find this board, and i wanted to be very respectful of her, I didnt even call her dad names on here.

I havent had anyone call me names on here, but a few times I have been made to feel less then welcomed due to my status as a FWS. And I can say I have read posts that if I was trying to decide what to do, I would have some serious doubts about going back to the BS that have posted.

Thats my two cents worth.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cc46:
<strong> I have never really felt much anger towards WH, I feel REALLY SAD and CONFUSED by the way he could betray all his beliefs, at least the ones that he has always maintained he had and the incredible way his “normal” behavior has changed (he has even stopped snoring!!!!).
Thank God that I found MB and learned about the “fog”, which explained all that behavior. For me it was a relief to discover that there might be a psychological explanation for all this, plus that it IS REVERSIBLE and it was specially encouraging to read posts from exWS who could not believe the things that they had done while in the “fog” (thanks Myrta!).
Since I consider my WH’s actions and what he says a product of the fog, I CAN be amazed or surprised but NOT angry because I know that he is in this “special condition”, not the person I´ve known for so many years. Therefore I cannot ridicule him, I can only feel sorry and hope that if he ever comes out of the fog he will be able to overcome the results of this period in his life.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, a month ago I would have railed this poster for this post.....But as I sit here in my home office with the fire place going, a warm cup of coffee sitting on a coaster, and a Seal CD playing in the background I am more grounded. My 2 X 4 is safely sitting next to me under lock and key with little chance of being used. I could not disagree more with this post above, BUT I will just say, lets agree to disagree here. to the OP: I am sorry for your pain with your WH. This sucks, and is not fair to you or anyone. That is all I will say here. Best wishes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

LM

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by john3479:
I am a firm believer in posting as if your spouse will read it. Sorry, but name calling in my mind falls in as a DJ. True its no where near as bad as an A, but it to can have fatal effects on recovery. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Name calling like what for example? I thought you said that in recovery, your wife agreed to stop the name calling. True or not true?


What I object to (sometimes) is that we say "wandering spouse" when in fact "infidel" or "adulterous spouse" is far more accurate.

"Wandering spouse" always reminds me of a fugue state or some other form of amnesia.... a bit of a misnomer.

I agree with you in spirit ... name calling is generally disrespectful. I just think throwing "name calling" into the same basket as adultery ... is a bit much.
Pep

When a BS finds out about the A and the realization sets in (aka: d/d), often there are stages a person goes through. Similar to losing a loved one. In fact, when the spouse becomes the ws, the family has lost a loved one.

Please click on my sign line about the 5 stgaes of grieving. It was started a log time ago but it gives a brief review of what those stages are. It doesn't mean we will experience them all or at the same rate or time. What is does mean is that this is what happens to most.

The anger stage often comes after the shock and hurt wears off. Anxiety attacks and anger can come overnight and last for a while. For me it overcame me one night and I sobbed while I was in the shower. Good thing my child was already sleeping. Little did I realize but my 6 year old was having nightmares and a couple of weeks later, we each discussed how his father's exit from our home affected us.

My hurt turned to anger when I saw the hurt in my son's face as he told his nightmare story. It had also turned to anger when my son felt he no longer could go to school because in his eye's he didn't have a dad anymore.

So will your anger come? Probably. Just get ready to learn how to handle those emotions. Don't keep it within you.

What your H is doing is horrible to your family. Scott Peterson is being sentenced to either life w/no parole or death because of his A and where it took him. A's are a dangerous thing. Worthy of controlled anger.

Be safe.
L.

I've got to second John, the importance of writing as if your spouse will read your words cannot be underestimated. Words that are spiteful are going to have less of an impact if the WS reading is out of the fog already but who can really count on that? Why take chances if you truly want to recover the marriage?

I understand the purpose of venting here, I've seen many posts over the years encouraging the venter to do so to avoid real life LBs and DJs but the bottom line is that you are what you think and when a really good vent comes along there is a slew of applause that encourages even more negativity towards WS either as a "group" or that particular WS.

We only get one side of the story most times, so unless a really astute MBer comes along a WS can be demonized by their BS for quite some time. When I first came to MB I read a thread discussing the cross section of the population on MB. I think the purpose of the post was one particularly difficult poster who was causing problems and someone mentioned that there were already a couple of mentally ill people posting by way of explanation. I was really shocked and thought it was great ammunition against my BH who was very enthusiastic about MB. I have since come to realize that personal recovery goes hand in hand with marital recovery so personal traits that are not beneficial to recovery DO need to be tempered.
The point of being careful about not LBing or DJing spouses here just because you CAN should be encouraged IMO but I really can't see that happening. People do have different personalities and if they are the type to pick up the phone and complain about their spouse anyway, this forum is a handy substitue because so many people can relate. Is it helpful in the short term or harmful in the long run to recovery? hmmmm.....KB

CC -

I applaud you for not calling names and belittleing your WH, however there WILL be anger and their SHOULD be anger. Anger is healthy when someone has hurt you in this way. Why? Because it keeps that anger from being turned inward, which is what depression is, "anger turned inward".

Be careful of your emotional health if you are not capable of anger. I wasn't either when I was in my 20's, even after an attack on me when I lived in Reno and some other bad stuff which happened to me. Didn't get angry at my attacker... however I did have a complete and total nervous breakdown a year later, and tryed to kill myself.

I tell you this because it worries me when someone says they are not angry when they really should be.

Pillows to yell into, a tennis racket to beat against the mattress or a punching bag are healthy ways to deal with anger which don't cause another pain and keep that anger (which you don't feel) from being turned inward.

Please keep this in mind CC.

Oh I just read Orchids post and I have to second that part about anxiety attacks.

I also developed anxiety attacks a few years ago which almost became debilating this past year after my latest bad relationship.

Another fall out from not dealing in a healthy manner with trauma.

Emotions will happen in just the way Orchid's "grief" steps happen in an emotionally healthy individual. If not all are gone through than you are looking at trouble down the road, in ways and time that may seem totally unrelated.

And for me, the one who could never get angry when I was younger, I get angry quite a bit now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

<small>[ December 14, 2004, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: weaver ]</small>

I have gained so much reading all the posts on this site, yet I have been able to do so little in my mind.

I can say one thing, I had spent a great of time calling my WS all sorts of things, yelling and I guess trying to make myself feel better. All I have done is use as many LB's as I had in myself and helped her keep the EA part of her A alive.

I spent 5 months on our couch listening to what a bad guy I was to her in our M. The thing is, I never realy was learning from what she said. Hindsight is 20/20, the knowledge we have now can carry us so far.

Use you're words in a safe manor for you're WW. In order to bring someone back they must have a reason to trust in you, words hurt both ways, they are in a fog.
Think clearly for the both of you.

Ok, Putting the two like that was off. But do you see my point?

I would have no second thoughts to my wife reading what I have posted. I know that most posters on here are in the same boat. But I have seen some that if the WS read it, it would put a big dent in any chance of recovery.

Plan A is about meeting EN's zero LB no DJ. If you feel the need to do such, its much safer to do it in private, or like I do, emails to myself.

You can ask KB, spider slayer, or Frags, I have doen alot of venting, But i know my wife can read it and not feel disrespected. Even my FIL wouldnt feel disrespected, and that one took alot of self control.

<small>[ December 14, 2004, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: john3479 ]</small>

Wow! alot ofinteresting points.
John, I think you put better words to what I think I think... I agree that maybe what I meant originally is that we should´write here as though they were going to read someday. One can vent in private.
Mimi, I have done a plan A as best as I could considering my husband leaves early in the morning spends all day with OW with the excuse that they are working and comes home 9 pm and goes to sleep soon afterwards. We´ve had a few weekends, but one weekend he went with OW to the summer house (he had been doing that before d day) and this last weekend he swore he went alone.
Because of our culture mainly but also because it is what he expects from me I told him he would have to leave. And because my kids are taking exams which finish the 23rd dec we decided it would be after that date.He doesn´t know I will be in plan B, probably thinks we will go on being "friends". He never even mentioned the possibility of ending the affair because he thinks he does not love me blah blah so the affair is NOT important in his opinion, it´s just a side effect!!!! Anyway I´ve written a plan B letter and am editing and polishing it because it WILL BE ready. I don´t think he will ever respect me if I don´t ask him to leave.
Lemonman: I didn´t quite understand your post. But this guy is really in a fog.Just wait until he tells his daughters and I´hope to be able to tell you what his reaction is when he sees that they don´t "approve" of his reasoning.
On the other hand he has not said ONE disrespectful thing to me,he has not accused me of any faults at all!!! and he´s being very generous and kind when he´s around, so somewhere in the bottom of his heart (or in his cerebellum as we say over here) he does feel guilty.

Orchid: I´ve suffered a lot of anxiety,some days I can´t keep still and I read this website obsessively, I go out to walk and luckily I´ve found a lot of private moments to cry. Not only in the shower. Once plan B starts I may get angry, because it will start together with exposure to the people he cares about: the kids, MIL, BIL. I know exposure should be done in plan A but in this case it wasn´t the right moment and I´ve had to postpone it. But I can´t postpone plan B any longer because although d day was in late october I had actually been plan Aing for months before that (without knowing it) while I suspected the affair but had no proof. I innocently believed he was going thru a MLC and was hoping to help him feel better. So it´s gone on too lon. Knowing him he would not respect me if I didn´t ask him to leave. He doesn´t want to talk much but at one point around d day he said he had planned on telling me about the affair in late january (after some significant dates) but at that moment I told him it would have to be as soon as possible and that is after Xmas.

Knewbetter
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I understand the purpose of venting here, I've seen many posts over the years encouraging the venter to do so to avoid real life LBs and DJs but the bottom line is that you are what you think and when a really good vent comes along there is a slew of applause that encourages even more negativity towards WS either as a "group" or that particular WS </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">¨¨
This is what I have observed exactly.

Weaver,
I have been angry, but not with my WH, at least not until now. It´s the fog factor. He´s not the person I know, so I can´t get angry with a stranger. We´ll see what happens when he tells the kids.
The person he´s become is so strange that I´m not the only one who finds him different. My family, who know, have also said they don´t understand him. But he´s avoiding everyone who knows about the A although it was his idea to have the Xmas party at home as usual with the extended family!
Other times I get angry I try to work it off somehow without hurting others, and I do cry. After Xmas I´ll have more freedom to vent my emotions...
By the way, I have plenty of names for the OW!!!! which I keep to myself of course. I think that if I ever saw her I would just try to ignore her. It has been said on some threads here recently that this NOT about the OW so I´m not wasting any energy on her. She´s certainly not worth it

Thanks everybody.I hope lemonman will give me a little bit more of an explanation. BTW english is not exactly my mother tongue so forgive any mistakes and that may be why I don´t understand LM.

CC,

If he is holding off until Jan, then they have a plan. Now that you know this, implementing plan B and exposure is critical it happen now. Even before the holidays....he is already ruining it for you and others who care will notice.

IMHO, kick him out ASAP. Let the shock of being homeless hit him. Don't worry about where he will sleep. He hasn't worried about where he drops his pants. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Let him float down his mire on his own. Otherwise he may enable you and make his A drag out while you start sinking (mentally and emotionally).

Here's a to do list:

1. Read the books and concept section above.
2. Get with a Good MC ASAP.
3. Keep a journal with date and times.
4. Identify your personal and M boundaries.
5. Identify your personal support group (children, pets, relatives, co-workers, neighbors, MC/IC, doctor, pastor, MB, etc.) ASk them to respect your decisions before you give them 'limited' info. Just enough so they can help you. Too much may make them think you are crazy unless they have been there done that.

When my H told me he was angry for my exposure, I told him it was done to give me support since he was giving his to a total strange stranger (OW). Each time he grumbled I told him if he supported me properly, it would not be necessary. Eventually he shut up.

Hope this helps.
L.

I can tell you the best thing for our recovery was living apart. Never really did a plan b. My situation is a real mess to explain, but we realized how much we wanted to be togeather. It was a real wake up call for both of us.

I wont even get into her situation right now. But as the FWS it was living apart that let me see what my A really was. It also showed me what I had to lose. Unless you have some really odd circumstance you need to get him out ASAP. For the good of your marriage he needs to see. It may take him a while, but the relationship with the OW will start to show its true colors before long.

I may be wrong here, but IMO when the WS is still living with the BS it is way to easy to " Reserve " the best part of the WS for the OW. And to " Reserve " the worse for the BS. The same applies for the OW towards the WS. The WS is also so focused on the OW that s/he doesnt see the bad. Why would s/he, they have the BS they can focus on for the bad.

Make sense?? Or am I just blowing smoke out my?????

<small>[ December 14, 2004, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: john3479 ]</small>