</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by maddyk:
<strong>
Anyway..I guess my point is that I generally don't object to your posts as they really boil down to boundaries and people who let their WS cross them longer than is healthy for ANY purpose. You can totally ignore me if you wish, but I hope you'll own your words instead of trying to act like they should be disregarded. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Uhhhhhh, ok...I think I got that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

OK folks, try this out:

An infidelity starts for one (or more) of three reasons.

1. A flaw in judgement, values, character - whatever - that allows the infidel to lower their defenses + selfishness.

2. A life crisis or other personality disorder (temporary or permanent) in combination with #1.

3. A bona fide abusive relationship in combination with #1.

The "fog"/dopamine/pharmacological part may come next.

Those who choose to poo poo the "fog" because they don't think it causes an affair are correct. But it is very much a player for continuing an affair. Period. Arguments to the contrary will be filed in my "intelligent design" folder. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Right on WAT! Hope you don't mind but I am stealing and printing that. I find myself often trying to explain things to people in this building, now that I am the affair expert . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

And seriously WAT, can we get some of that dopamine without having an affair? I need some. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

weave - I get mine in a cold amber beverage. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Anyone who denies the "fog" effect hasn't seen it in action.

WAT

<coughchocolatecough> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Yeah, I agree as well WAT..I'd include a bit of Mulans idea though..nearly everyone has stepped a bit over where they ought..had a temptation..etc..but failure to pull back is where the rubber meets the road. Maybe it's an impulsivity thing.

Noodle

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Oh, and Pep thank you, but really your opinion is just that your opinion and it is really none of my business. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> See how good I am doing.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">EXcellent... officially, it's "What you think of me is none of my business." Meaning, don't base what you think of yourself on the opinions of others. (BOTH the good and the bad opinions others hold of you can get you in trouble. )

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know I didn't mean that, right? Hope I didn't make you mad. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> When I am mad, you'll know it ... because I say the following ---> "NOW I am pissed !" ... See, no room for error .... ~LOL~

It's sooooo good, isn't it, when our weaknesses are exposed to ourselves .... so we can DO something about them?

When I get a criticism that, after self-deliberation about it, , I determine has value for me, I try to thank that person for their help. The person whose criticism means the most to me is my husband's. Before his A, the opposite was true ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

MYRTA .... you must be the light of Stanley's life. You are so bright, and funny, and saucy ! Life without you would be like eating bland meals with no spices !!! It's amazing when you discover that your weakness sits so close to your strength. In your case, your wonderful individualistic spirit was torpedoed by your desire for intimate closeness. Sit with that for awhile. Your strength begat your weakness ! I suspect that is how this stuff happends with most of us. We are super confident in certain areas .... and hence we allow our guard (boundary) to drop in that area ---> and the devil sneaks in through that momentary lapse. Right under our noses, if you will.

I want to think about this a bit more, and later, we could exchange ideas and see if there is more to learn here. OK?

Pep

Agreed Pep, weaknesses ARE usually the flip side of the coin from our strengths.

I think there is some complexity re how we get entangled thus..but I have a gut instinct that it is so.

Noodle

Very interesting discussion here.

I definitely believe that As result from a complex witch's brew: problems in the marriage combined with some flaw or weakness in the WS. But...like many chemical reactions, there has to be a catalyst.

In other words: I think that you can't leave the role of the OM or OW out of the equation. It's the discovery and exploitation of vulnerability that leads to As, in my view.

It is my belief that if I were in a loveless, lonely, neglectful M I would be ripe for an A...even though I say RIGHT NOW I would not have an A.

How can ANYONE say they would NEVER have an A...given the right circumstances...and I don't mean some hunk of a guy falling all over you. But if you were in a miserable place in your life, I mean REALLY miserable, and a 'friend' just happened to come along and you felt GOOD after talking with him (or her), the best you've felt in YEARS...

I can say I would not have an A...right now...I am happy...I am secure...I feel loved.

And I meant what I said...you can't necessarily blame the character flaws, we all have them...does that mean we all WILL have an A? Oh right, not THAT character flaw (whatever that means).

By blaming character flaws or brain chemicals or whatever else (not to say it doesn't play a LARGE part) relieves us of any part of the responsibility for a loveless M. Yep, it was all their doing. The blame can land directly ont heir shoulders. And by NOT forgiving them it means we don't have to change at all...thus admit guilt.

I never begrudge the person that decides not to continue a M...but don't blame the WS for your not trying. It is our own fears, hurts, and unwillingness to change that aids us in that decision.

<small>[ December 15, 2004, 08:40 AM: Message edited by: StillHereMakingIt ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by StillHereMakingIt:
<strong>How can ANYONE say they would NEVER have an A...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Like Pep and I have already said it > I will never have an affair. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

(This is aside from the technicality that I'm not married.)

This is based a LOT on what I've learned from experiencing one as a BS + the fact that I had plenty of the "recipe" before that to have one and I didn't.

WAT

I WOULD NEVER have an affair! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
I have seen what my BIL went through and now I know if first hand. I would stand up and say I'm not happy and leave the marriage before I would sink as low as having an affair and crushing someone's soul. It's a cruel act and I know I would never do it!!!! It's a CHOICE we make!

WORTHATRY---I used to say those exact same words, but 29 years into my marriage, I had one!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />


MYRTA

In my opinion and not directed at anyone in particular:

Human beings have free will. We choose to remain faithful or have an affair. While I believe there can be contributing factors (a.k.a "fog"); nevertheless, the choice is our own.

I can honestly say that I will never have an affair because I will never make that choice. I'm far from perfect, but right or wrong, I control my own behavior. No amount of "fog" is going to make me do something that I choose not to do.

Some people will read my post and think "well, you are just stronger or stubborn or speaking from inexperience." Admittedly, I am stubborn - LOL - but being strong has little do to with it. It's all about being accountable for your own behavior.

My personal take on this in regards to WS is this and he is only one example:
Timeline here:

1) Father passes away..although he has another sibling WS is left trying to help get mother back on her feet..she totally relied on WS's father right down to the writing of checks...refuses to help herself during this ordeal and WS now feels the need to fill the void and keep mother going...ie lunch with her every other day.. although she lives in a community where all types of entertainment and transportation is provided she refuses these outlets and makes WS her sole life..she never fully recovers from the death of her husband and dies shortly thereafter I suspect of a broken heart...so now we have both mother and father passing away fairly close together in timeline...WS is a workaholic...started his business from scratch and is very successful with it...never really deals with the death of parents just keeps throwing every waking moment into his business..so number one flaw...never dealing with the death of his parents.

2)Business is sold..WS is left at the helm for a period of time...he is underminded by a subordinate and is let go and replaced by subordinate by new mother company...hard blow to take knowing that you are now no longer employed and now the business you thrived on is pulled out from underneath you...this was a big blow to WS's ego and his way of dealing with this was to bury his head in the sand.

3) Now WS is offically retired...lots of free time on his hands...I look around and see all the bells and whistles, marital home, vacation home, mutiple cars, beautiful family and think life is good...unbeknownst to me since I was not aware of financial info as WS kept all files at office since WS is retired and no income coming in bills are piling up at his desk at one of his properties..( I find out all this later when I discover A)... at this time did not know even how to fill out income tax return as WS being business mgr. took care of all this..I see less and less of him..I speak to my son and tell him that I am worried about his Dad and his reply is that he is just out bothering fellow musicians who operate music stores..I suggest to my son that maybe his dad may be seeing someone else..he laughs and states Mom... Dad would never do that..that is how sure we all were that this would never happen..but suspect WS could see the writing on the wall and instead of dealing with situation head on ran to find comfort and release elsewhere..he did not want to seem a failure in his families eyes I suspect..and after just going through one big let down with his business could not face personal financial issues head on...thank god everything we had was paid for but with the only way to pay daily bills was to tap into investments...When I discovered A..I immediately took control of financial situation...such a switch and big learning curve for me.. I put a stop to the extravagent spending on WS's part...initally we owed several thousand dollars on outstanding bills...instead of tapping into investments I made WS sell an asset ...Dodge Viper...previous to this WS always kept bills up to snuff and was very responsible..now the roles had to be switched..he just did not want to handle any responsibilities anymore...I suspect he just was tired of carrying the load for everyone...these are typical Mid Life crisis symptoms...even though I tried to reassure him him I loved him no matter what we faced..he just seemed to want to walk away I suspect because it was easier to go to OW who was needy like himself and he had no pressures with her in trying to keep up appearances..she was from the other side of the tracks in every way..complete opposite from his wife and family..she accepts his flaws because she has many herself and together they do not have to justify their wrongdoings because it is all out in the open...I think at first he thought he could be happy in this scenario but I suspect parts of the old WS have started to resurface and WS is regretting big time his choices...I saw him today at one of our grandchildren's Christmas concert...he looks so terrible and haunted...I had to cry on the way home to see this man so broken...it was a shock...He tells me he is not happy but until he finds his way he never will be and I cannot help him...

<small>[ December 15, 2004, 09:40 AM: Message edited by: New Outlook ]</small>

Never say never!!

I'd like to think I would never have an A, after what I've experienced, and htat I have the skills to make my M better so I would never justify having an A.

BUT...

We can't foresee thinkgs happening...

what if we experience...

the loss of a child
a terrible disfiguring accident
given a year to live
our SO has a debilitating disease with no SF in site
we become friends with a person that makes A's sound OK
lay-offs, firings, downsizing

Any number of things can happen and we can start down a slippery slope without us realizing it...

Not saying anyone WOULD...or that it is BOUND to happen...we make choices DAILY that lead us there or away.

But, by blaming character flaws, fog, or whatever else it makes it sound like these actions were predetermined and there is NO hope for change. It also puts all the responsibility squarely on the WS' shoulders...not fair.

We all have our parts to play.

Quiet Guy,

Excellent post! I agree, ultimately it is an individuals choice.

I don't think I would ever have an affair because I am not capable of lying, and affairs would require a lie. Plus I can't imagine the thought of causing someone else pain, it makes me almost physically sick to think of someone elses pain.

I don't like to say I would never have an affair because it makes me feel like I am putting myself above others, namely those who have.

And because I was involved in an affair without knowing he was married. So I guess I did have an affair, committed adultry anyway, but I never lied and I did break up with him as soon as I found out he was married. Did not have anything to do with him until three months later, when he showed up at my door with a decree of divorce. And I didn't ask him to get divorced, I told him to go back to his wife and make it work. So I had an affair, that makes me SICK! Oh God I wish I didn't have to keep explaining this story, not that anyone makes me, but I feel obligated for all those that do not know.

remember "there but for the grace of God go I"

Oh..well there ya go. We disagree at an organic level.

All of the responsibility IS on the WSs shoulders. Want me to say it again so there is no misunderstanding?

ALL OF THE RESPONSIBILITY IS ON THE WSs SHOULDERS.

This was an independent decision..I didn't get a vote, so I bear no responsibility.

Unmet ENs? Boo frickity Hoo we ALL have them. Do the math..roughly 50% of marriages experience infidelity. We know for a fact that the unmet EN road runs BOTH ways especially during an A. Grossly so. So..with this in mind..roughly 75% of the population experiences loss and EN dissatisfaction yet manage to keep their pants on anyway. 25% do not. Their choice. Weakness. Flaw. And this IS generosity. The alternative is criminal.

Every criminal in the world has a *good* reason for what they did. Doesn't seem to matter that everyone else in the world experiences the same trials and chooses ethical methods of dealing with them.

***sigh*** this disagreement will never be resolved.

Either you are or you are not personally accountable for your own choices. Period. I don't believe in "circumstances". Nonsense. Life is circumstance. Anyone who says differently is selling something.

Noodle

<small>[ December 15, 2004, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: noodle ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MYRTA .... you must be the light of Stanley's life. You are so bright, and funny, and saucy ! Life without you would be like eating bland meals with no spices !!! It's amazing when you discover that your weakness sits so close to your strength. In your case, your wonderful individualistic spirit was torpedoed by your desire for intimate closeness. Sit with that for awhile. Your strength begat your weakness ! I suspect that is how this stuff happends with most of us. We are super confident in certain areas .... and hence we allow our guard (boundary) to drop in that area ---> and the devil sneaks in through that momentary lapse. Right under our noses, if you will.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have to agree, this applies to Myrta and to ALL OF US.

It may be difficult to add something to a statement that emanates nothing but wisdom, but IMHO, folks who have affairs simply suffer from low self-esteem. In this board and in many others the key ingredient is always low self-esteem. In fact self-esteem was a very important topic in Myrta's affair and OM assumed the role of the elevator of Myrta's self-esteem. Of course, there is no such role, the self-esteem can only be elevated internally by doing what is right and ethically correct. No external force can elevate the self-esteem. Paradoxically OMs lower the self-esteem of the WW because what they do is incorrect.

Simply put the reason I posted my story is this:

I can understand syptoms which lead WS to A..but cannot understand why WS cannot recognize the lifestyle he continues to live is self destructive...I saw evidence of that today..I can truly respect any individual who admits they made a mistake and take actions to correct the situation but to continue on the same downward spiral is mind boggling to me...WS seems to have just walked away from all responsibilities..I have been literally abandoned and now have a fight on my hands to try to survive financially...just more hurt and pain continuing..I would have more respect after a year of separation if WS would just be fair about financial settlement and both go on our way but after being married 31 years in January I am receiving no temporary maintenance and am scrimping to get by...he has stated several times he did not want to go to court and waste fees on laywers but he has left me no recourse but to make sure I have some financial security for my future... I am very frugal...always have been and will survive but I cannot fathom how one individual does this to another and look in the mirror everyday...previous to this he made sure I at least had the basics in life...

<small>[ December 15, 2004, 10:06 AM: Message edited by: New Outlook ]</small>