Just returned from MC session. The session itself was okay. Made a little progress. We went out to his car to talk more after our time was up. The issues opened up even farther. After a half hour, he had to go BACK TO WORK, of course, and I screamed and cried my way home. Keened, I think my Irish ancestors would say.

I am a trainwreck. My friend was here to meet my D off the bus. I just handed her some money and said take her for ice cream. I need some time and I don't want her to see me like this.So, I come to my friends at MB for insight and comfort.

Main points:
-He's actually having 2 affairs. One with OW and one with his job.

-He feels we've been distance for years and that because I'm not showing any love, he can't give back.

-He feels he can only move away from me emotionally because of my anger.

-He is struggling with the concept of giving up OW. As in, he doesn't think he can do it.

-Acknowledges that this might make me angry.

-Is mad at me for telling his parents. Says that it makes it harder to break it off with OW because of it. Go figure...

-Still wants to be a part of happy family Christmas.

-Is a complete cakeeater.

-Wants to take an apartment away from us

-Says there is no us. Says it's all between him and me. Apparently kids don't matter.

-Is sleeping on somebody's couch. Won't be home tonight.

-Says that his EA, says there is no sex only kissing (no tongue) and hugging is not evil or amoral because he has drifted apart and has no love for me.

I am so sad.

Wish I had great advice, or something funny to say. Keep up you're spirits. All is not lost

Lemonman, where is your cynical self to give me comfort?

He certainly has his own take on reality.

I am sorry you are hurting so much!

HurtingCarol - Please don't pay the slightest bit of attention to what he is saying - it is all par for the course, and has been said here before.

Calm down and relax. Be in this for the long haul.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by HurtingCarol:
<strong> Lemonman, where is your cynical self to give me comfort? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is this a joke towards me ? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> , if you don't want me posting to yuo just say so carol. Good luck with your grief..this all sucks.

Oh no Lemonman. No joke. An earnest plea. I think you give good and interesting advice. You will certainly have a different take on this than some.

Do you really thinks its fog?

HC,
This was a necessary step. He's gotten an opportunity to say what's on his mind, in an environment he felt non-threatened in.

Sometimes it takes the atmosphere for the WS to really speak what is really going on in their head. All the rest is reserved, saying what they think you want to hear, saying what they think will "buy them more time".

Perhaps the sleep on the friends couch..will enable him to go over in his head the words he spoke out loud. He may realize how ridiculous he sounded.

This is really your time to take control of what's going on around YOU.

He has to do this himself. Any provoking on your end will force his hand.

That's one of the points I want to point out most to lemon..... it has to be all about the WS ,and the decisions and actions THEY take. If it's by any other method...I think that makes it prime picking for a false recovery.

This isn't a race, and I realize the holidays will make things that much worse.

You can handle this one of two ways, try to Plan A...make the environment, holidays pleasant, or fight against it.

I have often thought of an A after DDAY like the waves in the ocean. You'll be much better off if you stop letting the waves thrash you about. If you learn to ride on TOP of the waves, you'll also have a better view of what's going on around you.

Look for signs...they are there...maybe not where you're looking, but there will be signs..to let you know if you're headed in the right direction.

These decisions our all yours, of course.

It's difficult, I know, but if you step out of the emotional reacting, you'll find you're reason and logic will kick in, and you'll find control of yourself.

So, just carry on with my life and my kids? Don't call. Don't pry. Don't ask? I plan to make this a nice Christmas. I think my in laws will come up as usual. If nothing else, they'll come for the kids.

I'll work on my anger. It certainly doesn't get me anyplace.

Sounds like fogtalk in a clinical setting.

Why not do MC with the Harleys? They can cut through some of the fog. (E.g., of course you're "angry"! He's having an affair.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, just carry on with my life and my kids? Don't call. Don't pry. Don't ask? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For now.

Yes for now. This is still VERY early. You have a few things working IN your favor now, the exposure to your inlaws, the holidays, the first MC.

Think small steps.

HC...you many get through the other end of this nightmare realizing you don't want to reconcile anything.

That's why it's extremely important you start reading the Plan A stuff.

Would you want your H ending the A, and rebuilding your M for ANY other reason than the fact he loves you, has made a terrible judgement call ?

One of the things I told my H when I thought he was struggling with "choosing" what life he wanted to live, was that I couldn't make the decision for him, I would accept whatever decision he made, but was not going to make it for him.

You want to be the person YOU are happy with. Are you happy with this person right now ? Not withstanding what your WH is putting you through. Look in the mirror...what is YOUR potential, as a wife, a mother, a woman, a daughter, a daugherinlaw ?

Find YOUR value....then maybe..you'll realize that your H has THAT to lose. It will help YOU tremendously.

You are not defined by your H or his actions.

Who are YOU ?

I'm a bit like Lemonman in that I am also pretty cynical and often feel that Plan A is way overused and goes on way too long. I will offer you some thoughts, but remember they're worth what you're paying for them. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Here is how I would answer him with each of these points:

Main points:
-He's actually having 2 affairs. One with OW and one with his job.

"I can handle you being gone for your career. I cannot handle you being gone to be with your girlfriend."

-He feels we've been distance for years and that because I'm not showing any love, he can't give back.

"Then as soon as OW is gone, let's work on this together because I'd like to show my love for you."

-He feels he can only move away from me emotionally because of my anger.

"Of course I am angry. My husband has deserted me for another woman. That is outrageous and devastating. Of course I am angry. Once she is gone, we can work on being close again."

-He is struggling with the concept of giving up OW. As in, he doesn't think he can do it.

"You can have her in your life if you want to. I can't stop you. But I am not going to be in your life as long as she is there too. I am not going to share my husband with another woman. That is painful, humiliating, and outrageous. I want my husband and I miss him very much. I do not want OW's boyfriend."

-Acknowledges that this might make me angry.

"It DOES make me angry. Of course it makes me angry. I can't think of anything more insulting. Of course it makes me angry."

-Is mad at me for telling his parents. Says that it makes it harder to break it off with OW because of it. Go figure...

"It was your choice to turn your back on your marriage and take up with a girlfriend instead. Are you not proud of this? Why should you be ashamed to let anyone know, especially your own parents? Don't you want to share this happiness with them, the way you shared your happiness when we got married?"

-Still wants to be a part of happy family Christmas.

"There is no happy family when the husband and father has turned his back on it and chosen to be OW's boyfriend instead."

-Is a complete cakeeater.

(Why? Because Carol allows it. Harsh, but true.)

-Wants to take an apartment away from us

"Fine. I want you to be happy. I am not your jailer. If you want her instead of your family, that's your choice. But you will not have both. I will not have this OW in my life or in my children's lives. If that means I have to get you out of my life as well, then that's what I will do."

-Says there is no us. Says it's all between him and me. Apparently kids don't matter.

"I already understand this. You made this clear when you said you wanted to move out and get your own apartment. You are right -- there cannot be an "us" when you have dumped "us" for your girlfriend."

-Is sleeping on somebody's couch. Won't be home tonight.

"I only want my husband home -- not OW's boyfriend. Please continue to sleep on that couch as long as you are her boyfriend and not my husband."

-Says that his EA, says there is no sex only kissing (no tongue) and hugging is not evil or amoral because he has drifted apart and has no love for me.

"I am sorry that you have traded your wife and family for nothing but a hug and a brotherly kiss, but that's your choice."

HC, didn't you post something about your H long ago "pushing" you into an affair with another man early in your marriage? That is not normal by any stretch. What happened with that? How did affect your relationship at the time, and how is it affecting it now?
Mulan

Carol,

I didn't read the others responses yet because I have to run, so hope I don't restate what someone else has said.

My take is if you are in Plan A, and sounds like you are then from your list there is only one thing you have control over -

He feels he can only move away from me emotionally because of my anger.


You can control how you react, make him feel safe with you.

You have a perfect op over Christmas to change this aspect around.

Hang in there, it will get better one way or another. This pain won't last forever.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>HurtingCarol: Main points:
-He's actually having 2 affairs. One with OW and one with his job. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Yes, he is. You have the choose to be a 3rd wheel or work on you and your family.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>HurtingCarol: He feels we've been distance for years and that because I'm not showing any love, he can't give back.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Ok, so what's he gonna do about it? Also do the same rules apply to you? What about his not showing proper love to you? Can't give back what? What did he take when he walked out?

These are not questions for you to answer. They are to give to him. Maybe at your next session. Keep a list and hand it to your MC.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>HurtingCarol: He feels he can only move away from me emotionally because of my anger.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Is he really narrow minded or just foggy? So does he propose you do the same? Another question for that list.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>HurtingCarol: He is struggling with the concept of giving up OW. As in, he doesn't think he can do it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Doesn't think he can do what? Break a friendship to save his family? Another MC question. Remember (insert reverse babble) his EA isn't serious right? They are just friends, right? If it is sooo casual, then why does it carry sooo much emotional weight? With these questions coming from you and not MC (but at the MC session), ask him when did he cross the line? You can set a precendent here that puts the guilt back on him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>HurtingCarol: Acknowledges that this might make me angry.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Good. Thank him for that recognition.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>HurtingCarol: Is mad at me for telling his parents. Says that it makes it harder to break it off with OW because of it. Go figure...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Fog babble. Remind him his parents loved the son they raised. Not sure if they or anyone loves the WS he has become. If being mad makes him gravitate to the OW, what will make him stay? You need to ask him this question, and it maybe better if it is in front of the MC.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>HurtingCarol: Still wants to be a part of happy family Christmas. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Why? His very presence brings anger and hurt to all he has hurt by this A thing. How does he expect everyone t/b happy? Another question from you in front of the MC.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>HurtingCarol: Is a complete cakeeater.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: This is a true statement. Keep it to yourself right now. Too many crumbs on the floor. ok?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>HurtingCarol: Wants to take an apartment away from us </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Ask him (in front of the MC). Does this sound like the actions of a family man or a WS?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>HurtingCarol: Says there is no us. Says it's all between him and me. Apparently kids don't matter.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: As a WS, he is correct. There is no H and father in a WS. Just a person who wants to hurt his family, friends and render his family homeless. Is that what makes him attractive to the OW?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>HurtingCarol: Is sleeping on somebody's couch. Won't be home tonight. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: If he likes couches to warm comfy beds, you gotta wonder. If he complains about any aches as a result, remind him some part of his body likes the couch. That part needs to convince the part that is hurting. LOL!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>HurtingCarol: Says that his EA, says there is no sex only kissing (no tongue) and hugging is not evil or amoral because he has drifted apart and has no love for me. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Well if he is going to sell his family down the river for only an EA, what is he going to do for a PA? Hm..... Scott Peterson did that and look at where he is going?

I recommend you write down his comments as you outlined and prepare a list for the MC and a list for you. With your comments. Ask the MC ahead of time, if she could help you get some answers and give her his statements and your questions. Then ask for some time to talk and you say the rest.

Remember this isn't about getting more answers. It is about raising doubts in his mind.

All the best,
L.

<small>[ December 14, 2004, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

Ah Mulan, you are so accurate. I did answer a lot of his questions with your responses. I do like your phrase "I want to be with my husband, not OW boyfriend." I also told him that it was really weird and nobody believed that there was nothing physical going on. I told him I have lots of friends that I can talk to and hug if I want but they don't make me want to bust up my marriage.

Yes, many years ago he did push me into an affair. I suppose I thought it was a '70's, hanging onto the swinging '60's thing. Gave me permission and asked me to look for an opportunity. Though young and adventurous, I learned that I'm not a casual sex kind of gal. He's also tried to orchestra other encounters. He took me to an x-rated hotel a couple of times. The first time we went, it was kind of cool. We had the big waterbed, lights, movies, hot tub. It was around our anniversary and nobody was at the hotel. He was leaving on a long trip soon after and it was very romantic. The memeories sustained me through his absence. He wanted to go again a couple years later. I agreed because I had pleasant thoughts of the 1st time. The second time was on a weekend and the place was literally swinging. Definitely not my kind of scene. On my request, we retreated away from the, aahhh group activities, and stayed in our room.

Maybe he's always had weird sexual things. Maybe he's always wanted to offload me. Actions that stretch out over several years look different when compressed. I guess that's our sordid relationship.

HC,

You know as well or better than anyone here that you can't let that fog talk get the better of you. It's silliness, plain and simple.

I think you made a step forward just now. Hold your ground and try to move forward from here. You've gotten some good advice from others, I won't duplicate that.

HH

Carol -- from what you describe of your husband giving you permission to have other sex partners and trying to orchestrate other encounters, I think you have a much bigger problem here than just a man temporarily attracted to a girlfriend.

No man who loves a woman will encourage her to have sex with another man.

The *only* reason he will do this is because it then gives him permission to have sex with other women. This ain't love -- it just means he considers you one of his possesions.

My own "spidey senses" are screaming right now. I'd bet a lot that your husband has got some pretty serious problems with sex addiction and that he has been going outside the marriage for far longer than you know -- and that this OW is simply the first one that you've managed to catch him with.

Have you talked to your MC (alone) about this? You may need to find an expert on sex addiction to help you cope with this. NOT HIM -- YOU. There is a book called *Don't Call It Love* that is supposed to be very good.

Again, I think you've got deeper problems here. Is this really the first time you've suspected he was having an affair?
Mulan

Mulan, my small little voice 'way deep says listen to this woman. You've given me another area to think about. thanks

Carol:

I think your husbands actions are kind of forcing you to do something here. He does not respect you or feel he has any chance to lose you. I think you need to do something different here...but perhaps one of the esteemed posters here can give you MB approved advice. I say you kick his A$$ to the f-ing curb like right this moment.....1 am..but that is just me. How do your children feel about all of this?

My kids hurt. My eldest son is coming home from college tomorrow. When I talk with him, he is so mad and would like to shake his dad. My second son has gone deep. He's got a million other things to think about that make up his senior year in high school. This will be a lovely memory for him. My little daughter feels abandoned and betrayed. When WH told me he wouldn't be home tonight, he seemed very surprised when I suggested he call home and talk to the kids. I said WH at least owed them an explanation. When he called, my daughter refused to talk to him.

I don't think all the love and sweetness I could muster would make a bit of difference. He's in the deepest fog and my every action is considered angry. I am going to stand firm for myself. My inlaws are definitely on my side. They cannot understand what is going on with their son. Actually, nobody understands WH.

MB concepts aside, I think it maybe time to move into Plan B. He's lied to me, his parents, the kids and even our MC. How can one trust the words and actions of a liar? There are some loose ends that need to be tied. And we need to move through the holidays.

Although WH continues to say there is no "us" in this picture, my kids and I are trying to hang together. We're going to have a nice holiday in spite of our personal Grinch. We're planning to have a New Year's Eve party. And no, dad is not going to be invited. I'm still trying to figure Christmas out. Trying to balance cake-eating with family time. I'm not sure WH could stand the "heat" of our combined displeasure. At heart, he is a coward. Oh yeah, and our 28th wedding anniversary is the day after Christmas. fun, fun, fun