The short version of my story: My WW and I (M 10 yrs, together 12.) became close friends with OM about a year after his wife died. His 2 boys and our son were great friends, and our families spent much time together. OM and I had a very strong friendship. About a year later, in April 04, she began a secret relationship with him. Their friendship strengthened; he met her EN while I was ignoring them. In July, she revealed the A, and has stopped seeing him. Since then, and especially since finding MB, I have been on Plan A, and WW and I have worked through many of the barriers that we had built up in our relationship. We are on the road to recovery. OM is moving out of state in about 6 months.
The trouble is, OM still relies on WW for emotional support, and still calls WW occasionally (every 2 wks or so; last week marked his XW birthday and the anniversary of her death, and he called because he was so sad). When I ask WW about the contact, she says, "He was there for me when I needed him, and I feel like I owe it to him to be there when he needs a friend." (OM really has no support network to speak of for this situation).
Unfortunately, the last time WW told me that OM called, I screwed up and let my anger for him show through instead of treating WW with care and respect. Big, bad LB. I apologized later, but now I've got some patching up to do.
I need some help about how to proceed. Occasional phone calls are the extent of the contact between them now, and WW and I are slowly but surely rebuilding our relationship. WW reports that OM is supportive of her decision and our M, and is not saying anything to distrupt our recovery. For my part, Plan A is working, and I'm not ready to give it up. Everything WW does (except for the phone contact) convinces me that she is genuinely in love with me again and committed to our M.
Are there any FWS for whom this rings a bell? How do I deal with OM's continued contact? He was a dear friend of mine, and I've considered contacting him. Any ideas?

Wow... That is a very sad situation.... I bet it has happened alot more than any of us think... Im very happy that you and your ww are working thought this... As far as contacting him.. Since he is an old friend of your I would say go with what your gut feeling is... He did cross the line and betrayed your friendship in the worst of ways... Now you just have to ask yourself was this because the tragedy and he was looking for comfort or were those feeling their all along... I wish you the best....

Thanks for your kind words. OM is a very needy, very selfish person right now (WW recognizes and agrees), and it gets worse as he goes through this difficult season. I don't think he has the ability to see how his contact with WW affects me or our relationship. My inclination is to try to be patient and let the contact fade, especially since OM is moving out of state soon (not soon enough for me, but still...). I'm hoping that OM's dependence on WW will decrease as he builds up a new network of friends. But it's hard for me to wait, and I'm struggling with what to do about this kind of contact...

Dear Nomorelies,

my situation was rather similar as my H had an A with my best friend. We continued to see each other socially because
- her H didn't know about the A
- I thought I was the one who had to "get over it" since H and XBF were very sorry and the A ended as soon as I found out
- I hadn't found MB yet
- I thought I didn't need "NC"
- H and XBF still chatted on the internet because they "had to work through this"

Sounds familiar?
I was getting nowhere. I had a few talks with XBF/OW to help me understand what had happened. But everytime I talked with her, everytime the four of us had social contact, I felt bad. I got angrier and angrier inside, got hateful thoughts but did not express them.

You see - it doesn't work this way. The people that were in the A see things very differently. Nobody lied to THEM. Nobody cheated on them, nobody hurt them. In fact they only got pleasure and support from each other.

But you (and I) were lied to, betrayed, hurt. Out of respect for US all contact must cease. After 6 painful months where I was getting nowhere personally, I finally put my foot down and requested NC. OW actually was relieved that I set my boundaries. H agreed reluctantly, because NC meant him losing two hobbies and social contact. See how selfish the mind of people in an A works? Even though I'm quite sure my H loves me, it took him some time to let go of his selfish needs.

I gave him and OW the wrong impression that I was or would be "ok" with things because they were "behaving" now. But I wasn't. It felt so terribly disrespectful to me that they were talking and laughing together gain after the first weeks of initial shame and akwardness. It was as if "nothing ever happened".

It's about time this "friend" is cut off from your M. He can get professional help if he is feeling down about the loss of his W. That's no excuse to break up your M. Your W will have to let him go, and asap.

Put your foot down, respectfully but determinatedly. Plan A is intended to establish NC, you cannot go on and on letting your W contact this OM, you have to draw the line.

You might get some protest because you have pretended to be "ok" with it.. but please be honest with yourself and spare yourself more pain and more damage to your M.

I've been there... done that... and to this day I regret not having broken off all contact on d-day.

Thank you, Brownhair, I appreciate your comments and agree. I have requested NC, and I thought it was established, but last Saturday found out that it had been broken by OM (despite his promises to me). I have been reluctant to approach the NC issue since then (when I LBed)over the last few days for fear of pushing WW away. I plan on approaching it again in a few days, once I've regained some of the trust I lost after LBing.
Actually, I could use some suggestions for how to request NC "respectfully but determinedly." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'm pretty new, and I'm pretty early on in the "MB program", so I am taking time to process things slowly. I've been thinking more about how to safely request NC again.
The problem that I have is that WW feels "attacked" whenever I ask her to give up contact with OM. She feels like I'm trying to control her actions.
I could really use some help in how to approach this again in a non-threatening, non-attacking way! I've tried appealing to her being considerate of me, but then she just says that she won't tell me when there is contact so that I don't have to go through the pain (really considerate!). I've tried to gently explain that as long as there is contact with OM, we can't rebuild our R. She doesn't agree. She is stubborn! So, I'm left with "waiting it out" until the desire to have NC comes from within her. Unless I can get some good suggestions....

Is FWW involved with the MBers concepts at all? If she isn't you have to be careful not to "preach" there virtues which makes it more difficult but you can use them to your advantage in explaining things to her.

Here's my take on your situation. She CAN NOT continue contact with OM. You mention pushing her away if you pursue NC. Perhaps your bigger concern should be that if you do nothing you will be allowing her to drift away.

My FWW met her OM when my best friend died of a lingering illness and OM was a paulbearer and used my W to fill his EN after the funeral. I caught it early on and put and end to it but when he came back around FWW couldn't see anything wrong with the relationship and as far as she was concerned he was just someone in pain that was new to the area and didn't know anyone and could talk about our mutual friend... yadda yadda yadda.

Trust me if there is or has been an A the people involved don't see things for what they are. Are you familiar with FOG? Sounds like there might be some lingering in your wife's area.

I can tell you from personal experience that as long as there is ANY contact between the two your W is on a very very slippery slope.

Best of luck to you.

Dear NoMoreLies,

what helped in my case was being gentle but consistent. You cannot MAKE her stop the contact. But you can tell her it's hurtful to you. You can tell her it takes away your love for her. No more... no threats, no "if you won't stop I'll...".
You can tell her that you will need NC if you and her are to build up your M again.
That you love her, and want to make her happy.

I could not convince my H that contact with OW was no good for HIM. He liked the social contact with OW and OWH, the contact (chatting on the internet mostly after D-Day) with OW.. why would he give all those pleasant things up? Why would that be good for HIM ?

He had to understand that it was what I needed to get over the A. That it was something he had to do for me, a small gesture after all the pain he had caused me (but don't expect your wife to see it that way! too much fog and too much painful truth in that!).

You'll need patience, though. But if you say nothing at all she might think you're ok with it, like my H thought.

People who have an A have to tell themselves all sorts of justifications. They have to justify that they are doing things that will hurt the people they love should they ever find out etc. That causes "fog". They have to slowly de-fog or realising the extend of the hurt they have caused might make them suicidal - the mind protects us from that by allowing us to believe utter nonsense.

So help your W de-fog by feeding her little bits of reality. Not too big - she needs to be able to swallow them. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Try to be calm, don't expect an answer.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mr. E:
<strong>FWW couldn't see anything wrong with the relationship and as far as she was concerned he was just someone in pain that was new to the area and didn't know anyone and could talk about our mutual friend... yadda yadda yadda.

Trust me if there is or has been an A the people involved don't see things for what they are. Are you familiar with FOG? Sounds like there might be some lingering in your wife's area.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is pretty much exactly the way my W explains the "friendship" with OM. How were you able to get your W to see that contact was dangerous, and to get her to agree to NC?

I'm only familiar with FOG from what I've read on a few posts, but I have no doubt that my Ws judgement is still clouded. Realizing that is pretty much what keeps me patient with her. Again, how does the fog get lifted? I feel like it is lifting with PlanA, but it's not a clear day yet....

Thanks so much for your encouragement and support! I am so glad I found MB and this forum...

NoMoreLies,

This is a tough situation. But, in my view, no contact means NO contact. Period.

I'm sorry to put this bluntly, but: the OM's problems aren't your concern. They shouldn't be your wife's concern anymore, either.

If he is struggling with his emotions...he should find a counselor.

Eventually, this continued contact is going to undermine any progress you make in your marriage.

Yes, you need to avoid love-busting. But...I think you also need to make it clear that continued contact is simply not acceptable.

Brownhair- Your comments are wise and extremely helpful. Little bites of reality...nice. I am so grateful for your words and your support! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Andrew- Thank you for your bluntness. You are right, and I'm headed there, I just want to make sure that I get there the right way. I can't say these exact things to my W right now, because she will withdraw. Ironically, SHE has said many of these things, but can't stand to hear it from me (her, without prompting: "OM is going to have to find someone else to rely on." OTOH, there's been contact since). So, she can get there, but I know that there is still some fog hanging around...

Make yourself familiar with all of the MB basic concepts on the main portion of the site. This will help you understand FOG. It will not lift as long there is continued contact and even then it only lifts with time.

Unfortunetly I couldn't make my FWW understand the dangers of her relationship until EA turned into a PA that runined her business, devistated our children, and almost ended our M.

Does your W understand the concept of an EA? Have you had this conversation? (YOU) I wish you would stop seeing OM it's not healthy for our M... (W) there's nothing wrong with it, he's a nice guy and we just talk. Sound familiar?

At some point your FWW must come to understand that she is filling an EN for OM and that he is doing the same for her. That is an EA. For her part my FWW could not get that concept until, well I don't know when she got it or how she got it to tell you the truth but get it she did.

There is an old saying; you can lead a horse to water but you can't make um drink and it applies here.

You see there is no magic bullet that we can all use to fix our M's but here at MBers we can get the ammuntion we need to understand our WS's, their actions, and our reactions to them until our WS's start to come around.

Having said that, it was not until after OM exposed the PA and my FWW was so deep in the FOG that we almost couldn't see each other that I found MBers and the tools I needed to save my M. You are way ahead of the curve. You are in the right place but once again I encourage you to read the main portion of this site. I actually killed a bunch of trees and printed pretty much everything and started a three ring binder so I could make notes. I'm telling you, at this point all you can control is yourself and YOUR actions and the basic concepts are a road map you need!

Hi NML,

My situation is similar to yours. The difference being my W works with the OM and refuses to leave her job. She assures me that the A is ended completely, that she understands the MB plans, and wants to rebuild our M. She’s doing all the right things except the NC thing. This leaves me frustrated, unsure, untrusting at times, and we often end up bickering about it until I relent about her finding another job. I do empathize with you and your situation.

If I was you, I would suggest to your W that at some point the OM is going to need to move on and start a new life for himself. Try to point out to her that what she is doing is only delaying his ability find happiness and a complete life. The continued support from her will only keep reminding him of the A and the of his loss W.

I would also do my darnedest to get her to realize that the right thing to do is for her to suggest to the OM that he see a counselor. If she knew that was happening it may make her feel she has done her part to help him get the support that he needs to find happiness again. She can than turn her attention to rebuilding your M without having any feelings of guilt about abandoning the OM.

Hi NML,

I will echo some of the sentiments here and say that your WW has to understand and agree to the fact that being in contact with the OM is inappropriate.It is also inappropriate for this OM to be using your WW as HIS support system.If he is moving away,this would be the best time for there to be a clean break.Change phone numbers if you have to to keep this guy from calling.

For everyone involved including most importantly the children,the adults here need to start acting like adults and in a positive manner.As long as there is contact,no one is going to recover.

You may want to ask your WW if she thinks that destroying her own marriage and family is suitable to her if she keeps up the contact which is wrong and hurts you.She has to understand the gravity here that if she does not stop contact,there are consequences.I think that after seeing what the OM is going through with the loss of his wife,she may not find it so wonderful if hers is at risk.Say it however you want but make it clear that this is no longer going to continue.

You have had exposure now since July.Plan B is around the corner if she doesn't put her marriage and family first.Don't let her tell you that you are pressuring her or she feels attacked,etc.Those are EXCUSES not to do what she needs to do.

O

<small>[ December 16, 2004, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dear W I am not trying to control who you can or cannot see or talk to, BUT until YOU CHOOSE to end all contact with YOUR EXTRA-MARITAL LOVER, my trust in you cannot be rebuilt. Your friendship with YOUR EXTRA-MARITAL LOVER is at my emotional expense and if it continues I will eventually lose all the love I have for you and I will no longer want to remain married to you. This is not a threat but a statement of fact which YOU CHOOSE to either heed or ignore. When you do make YOUR CHOICE, please let me know so that I can start preparing myself for the future.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Notice that I did not used the euphemism OM but the more emotionally charged term EXTRA-MARITAL LOVER because you need to remind your W that the OM, is not just an OM but her EXTRA-MARITAL LOVER with all the emotional implications that the term conveys but that the sanitized term OM does not.

TMCM

If your W tells you that the OM is NOT her EXTRA-MARITAL LOVER anymore, just tell her that until SHE CHOOSES to have no more contact with him, he still remains her EXTRA-MARITAL LOVER.

TMCM

It's important to recognize as well..that when a WS is holding out on NC..they are a WS not a FWS.

There is always a reason..even in long term posters..who resist NC..slip..and realize the crucial role it plays whether they like it or not..no exceptions.

Until you have her full committment to NC forever, you don't have anything..ask her how she feels about that.

Noodle

So many good posts, so little time to reply! Thank you all. It is so helpful for me to read what you write, even if I already know it. Something about having my thoughts/feelings confirmed by others is so reassuring!

Clearly, WW is meeting some of OM's ENs, and I would guess that OM is meeting WW's need to be a caregiver. OM is in IC, but I don't think C can support him the way WW does. Still, if I can get her to understand how keeping contact plays the part of meeting those needs, she can begin to see that contact with OM does not help him, her, me or the M. I'm not sure if calling the contact an EA is accurate at this time, but I am interested to see what she says about comparing pre-exposure contact with contact now (the A was almost completely emotional with the exception of one or two episodes of making out. No SF, though I don't know that it would make a difference).

It is strange, isn't it? Just 3 short months of WW deeply connecting with someone else and all of a sudden we are in this whirlwind? The mind has such power. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

I still believe that we can make this work out. I used to be in a rush, but I now recognize this work as the marathon that it is. Sometimes I am frustrated by my own patience--I am much more accustomed to dealing with issues immediately. I hope that it will pay off!
Thank you again for your posts!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I would just like to echo noodle's comments. Through my 8 month Plan B, my WW has on several occasions suggested and asked directly to have me come home. I may not have performed a perfect Plan B but I have not wavered in my insistence that the first card played was the NC letter. That has not and apparently will not happen. I mourn the loss of my M but I also realize that if she could not take that first baby step, I would be propping her up throughout the remaining years of a probable miserable M.

The more I read these forums the more I see the profound moral, ethical and and absolute impact that the NC letter provides. While I am sure a lot of NC letter promises are broken, the very nature of the written word has an unmeasurable psychological impact. Naturally, I am speaking of a normal adult. If you are dealing with a true personality defect or drug/alcohol abuse, the letter's importance seems to be almost non-existent.

Have you confronted OM yet?

Are you aware of how your wife is portraying your marriage to him?

A good argument can be made that you ought to call him and ask him to leave your family alone. It's very sad that he lost his wife, but why kill a family in the aftermath? (Read my sig line below for our similarities.)

It is hard to predict what will come of any interaction you have with him, but a smart bet would be that you become public enemy number one and their communication not only may continue, but may become more secretive and more intense. The wild card here is you may have no idea what she's been saying to him about your marriage.

But my recommendation is to contact him and calmly tell him that his reliance on your wife has become harmful to your marriage and ask him to seek comfort elsewhere. Tell your wife afterwards that you did this.

Your wife will be spittin' mad. Expect this and ignore her reaction. Then keep your eyes and ears open. Continued contact will be cause for further action.