Yeah I agree with Mulan in that something just doesn't add up here. Plan A is to negotiate NC but that is already in place theoretically. And yet obviously you are not in recovery. She feels that you forced her to come home and she doesn't want to be there.

And you don't listen to her. You may want to try repeating back word-for-word what she says so that she knows that you heard her like, "I hear you saying that you don't want to be here but that you will stay until June". Just word-for-word. (MC taught me this)

Without reading your whole story again, please refresh my memory as to how NC was agreed upon?

Regarding the "You will never trust me again" statement. My H seems to be thinking the same thing. I counsel with Steve H - one of the suggestions he made to me for that statement is to say "I believe if we work together I can learn to trust you again." I believe if we work together we can get past this ... I believe....

You might have to say it lots of times. Maybe you could try that.

Michael,

I did go back and read your story. It looks to me that everything was going well up until about here, right around Christmas:
HERE

Up until this time you were romancing your wife and she was responding. It seems like here that your Taker re-emerged, angry and impatient that she was till not committing to your marriage. And also that you were not only angry but enraged at OM and the pictures that were re-playing in your head were driving you crazy. You vented here which was good but it seems that things kind of spiraled down from this point, around Dec 23 .

Mind you I'm not blaming you but it does seem that your wife has withdrawn from you since then. Are you still angry and are you LBing? Just a question.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She feels that you forced her to come home and she doesn't want to be there.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry, I think I mispoke here; she never left did she? She's only threatened to leave.

Mulan: Asked

Are you really, really sure of this? Is your buddy still taping and following her? From what you describe, I'd swear your WS was still seeing her OM.

Yes i'm 100% sure...My buddy has two guys on her at all times and the taps are still in place.

This may well be denial and wishful thinking on your part. BTDT.

I don't think so. I am wondering if maybe the idea of her going 51 days is impossible and that maybe she really is on day 51 all materials collected point to 51 days of NC

She can't have it both ways -- but she sure is managing to have exactly that, isn't she?

Not sure what you mean?


Both statements are hallmarks of the WS who does NOT "get it," and who is just trying to find a way to keep both her husband and her boyfriend. I still think that's what you're really dealing with. I hope I'm wrong.

Could it be that maybe she is over the OM but still want out of the M because of my causing the A to end? sort of like a punishment? June is still a long ways off..


===================================================

Legato Asked:


Yeah I agree with Mulan in that something just doesn't add up here. Plan A is to negotiate NC but that is already in place theoretically. And yet obviously you are not in recovery. She feels that you forced her to come home and she doesn't want to be there.


Join the club on things not adding up, her mod swings and her anger have lead me to think she is still in contact somehow, But PI swear's that there is no way she could get past his people or his taps. WW has told me that she will end the A and have NC but that she wanted to take us staying here together week by week until the end of June. She will not just stop and say..OK lets work on the Marriage, shefeels I have to prove things to her first..Back in September I did force her to come home from her real dad's place and that was also the night after she had first PA with OM last Pa was 11-3-2004 she has only slept with OM twice..


===================================================


STARZ Asked:



Regarding the "You will never trust me again" statement. My H seems to be thinking the same thing. I counsel with Steve H - one of the suggestions he made to me for that statement is to say "I believe if we work together I can learn to trust you again." I believe if we work together we can get past this ... I believe....


I have told her it will take time and effort on both parts but she comes back with " But I don't want this Marriage" How do you counter that?


==================================================


LEGATO SAID:


Mind you I'm not blaming you but it does seem that your wife has withdrawn from you since then. Are you still angry and are you LBing? Just a question.


Yes I'm still very Angry with OM and ww for the intamicies that took place between them, I'm also dropping LB's once in awhile, Doing better then before..My usual statement will end with a " Well i'm sure you and OM will be happy together or maybe you should have been more of an adult and kept your pants up" I know...Not good but the anger just comes out of know where, It like festers and grows out of doubts and the things she say's to me..

She did leave me for about three days back in Nov but I went down to her real dads and we talked and she came home, she called it forced but in reality she did not want to stay in her dads small trailer with three kids and be away from OM..


Today I'm just very upset and confused and angry..Angry at her angry at OM angry for not being man enough to keep my wife loyal...

***I have told her it will take time and effort on both parts but she comes back with " But I don't want this Marriage" How do you counter that?***

Have you asked, "Then why are you here? In all seriousness, why are you here?" What does she say?

Don't ask, "Well, if you don't want the marriage, then what DO you want?" She'll just get mad and says she doesn't know.

If she doesn't want the marriage, and she doesn't want OM, then why is she with you?

Something is not adding up here.

Is it possible that OM dumped her and she *can't* go back to him? (She'd never tell you that he dumped her.) That might explain her ongoing anger and withdrawal, plus her need to stay with you as a safety net. How did the A really end? And how do you know for sure?
Mulan

Here are some ideas -

She is still there, despite everything that she says because of one of the following reasons:

1. She would like to have a good marriage with you, the man that she truly loves but she doesn't know how to get from point A (where you are now) to point B (happy marriage)

or

2. She cannot financially handle having her own place right now and she's just trying to get her ducks in a row

or

3. She is willing to stay until June and see if you can fix everything without her making any effort.

Those are the only explanations that I can come up with. Have I missed any?

So, number 1 is easy. You can demonstrate how to get from point A to point B with your own behavior, no LBing, many love bank deposits, etc. You are here on MB and you know what it takes to restore your marriage.

If number 2 - I just wonder, if you offered to help her financially for a LIMITED TIME to get her own place what her response would be. I know this is probably against MB principles so I'm not saying it's a good idea. Just wondering how she would respond.

If number 3 then that is problematic. Unfortunately I think that BSs must shoulder the majority of the work initially in order to get things going back in the right direction. Eventually the theory is that the WS will begin, out of a sense of fairness, to make more of an effort. Not really fair, but that's how it is, I think.

I guess one other possibility does exist - and this may be the case here - that she it's 1, 2, 3 and perhaps others that I haven't thought of on different days and at different times. This would be consistent with WS rollercoastering.

So this is your path as I see it. Continue to Plan A and work on yourself. Are you the best Michael that you can possibly be? I don't think you're quite there yet. You have worked very hard and I commend you but you've got to do something about your anger. It seems to me that this is your challenge. It's poisoning your Plan A. You need to do everything you can to make your home peaceful and a pleasant place to be. Leave all of the ugliness out in the world where it belongs.

Make sure that it is safe for her to be honest with you; whatever she says it's only words and she won't necessarily feel the same way tomorrow. Don't punish honesty unless you want to get less of it.

If she is waiting for you to fix everything with no effort on her part, go ahead and try. Do your damnest to make it work. Then at least you can say that gave it your all to preserve and heal your family.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> angry for not being man enough to keep my wife loyal... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This kinda blows my mind. You really feel this way?

MULAN & LEGATO

I REALLY AM NOT SURE HOW TO ANSWER YOUR REPLIES, SO I WILL TRY MY BEST TO TELL YOU WHAT SHE HAS BEEN SAYING AND DOING THE PAST COUPLE WEEKS AND MAYBE THIS WILL HELP YOU BOTH AS WELL AS ANYONE ELSE HELP ME OUT.


Ok...WW claims that she has never loved me and that for a long time she has wanted out of this marriage but felt she needed to stay for the children or maybe even because she could not do it on her own. A couple months back CPS ( Child Protective Services ) got involved because the children were having problems at school because of ww's Affair and also because she walked out on them one night and a few other things like throwing hot coffee on me and hitting my D with it as well. WW is being investigated by CPS and feels because of them being involved she should stay.


WW seems to go back and forth with how she feels and I will be the first to admit if we are getting along and I don't question her A ( DETAILS ) then things stay good. If I question her on any type of detail she gets very upset and say's this is not helping us and if you really love me then you will stop this and just leave it alone, She also say's my actions are pushing her away.

WW also goes back and forth about SF/Cuddling/Kissing and hugs. She tells me that she enjoys SF with me but feels that her lack of loving me is starting to get in the way and it makes it very hard for her to initiate it with me. She gives me hugs and kisses and cuddles with me all the time and it still surprises me. She tells me that she does not think of OM nearly as much as she used to and that in honesty when I bring his name up thats what makes her think of him.

She calls this marraige her prison, It bothers her that the children want to reside with me if we should end the M and it bothers her even more that if that day should come I will be moving to Florida with the children because thats where I would get the best emotional support ( Family live there )

WW sat down with me tonight and told me that she will do everything she can to survive her till June but that I should not get my hopes up in saving the Marriage, And that she is only being nice to me so that she can survive here until then. I have the MB theory that if I can learn to be the best Mike I can she may want to stay past June and work on the Marriage.

I try so hard to convince her to work on the M that I get mad and upset when she does not agree and yet I understand her reasoning is because of how we are NOW. I just wish I could really understand what she needs from me and what I can do to make things happy around here again.

My job is about to let me go for all the time I have missed, My boss is on my [censored] all the time now.

I have done nothing but Kiss my ww's butt thinking this will help her want to stay and I think thats what has been my biggest anger trigger.

ww feels the need to remind me time to time about how she feels and this really rips my heart apart because she does it in the worst way possible. Like tonight she told me she loves hugging me and giving me kisses but she does not love me and in her own words she said " what am I supposed to try for something I never wanted in the first place" and she also said " what am I supposed to sit around and hope one day five years down the road that I wake up and go..Gee I love Mike " it's these things she say's that really rip my heart out..

ww also has her day's where she walks around the house talking about the future like she is staying and everything is ok. We are under a lot of pressure as well right now finacially because of the time I have missed we are not able to make a lot of the bills and things are getting tight here. I know I need to get off my [censored] and get back to work but as it stands when I do go back to work on Monday I will be going back as an Hourly associate because my boss demoted me, he said the company has a policy that while I'm out on medical leave they have the right to not hold my position but that they have to offer me something..Not sure if there are laws to protect my rights and I don't know if I even have the energy to fight it.

ww tells me that she really is on day 52 of NC and that she is ok with it because she feels her Affair was wrong and it bothers her how much it hurt me and she has told me in her own words " If we save this marriage I will never do that again to you" She talks like she really does have remorse for her Affair and I do believe she regrets it 100%.

I just don't know if she has what it takes to help me save out marriage, Maybe the past with us has been so bad that she really does not love me and really does want out of the Marraige.

I'm not all that sure why she stays, Maybe in part because of the children, maybe because she does not want to have to move all the way out to her Mom's and step dads two hours away. Maybe she stays because she feels she owes me at least that. I don't know. Some day's she talks like she could leave that day and be ok with it and yet when I give her the go ahead she backs down and cries and we make up and she tells me she wants to try to make it to June. I feel like sometimes she really is here to see if I can win her back and then maybe I'm just in my own FOG.

well I hope this helped, If there is more info you need or some blank that I need to fill please let me know. these questions and answers are also helping me...

Michael,

Ws stay for their guilt and the fact that the BS and family fill their selfish EN. There is not a generous soul in their body that is long term. It is all about them.

The longer you let her stay on her terms, the more you hurt your family. The sooner she goes out, the pain will be intense but temporary and you will force her to meet her own selfish ENs herself or better yet, let the OM do so.

If you drag out this plan A, you are in for the same world of hurt but more of it. Over a longer period of time and by the end of it be sooo exhausted that your own recovery will be difficult. It will also be harder on your children.

U decide.

JMHO,
L.

Her saying she likes hugging and kissing you, and having SF with you, but does not love you, is awfully weird. Women do not usually work this way. Usually the emotional attachment has to be there on *some* level before we want to get physical. She's saying it's the other way around with her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I still have two questions. Apologies if you have answered them before, but I did not see them.

1) Why is she staying until June? What happens in June? Why June? Is is just arbitrary, or is something else happening then?

2) How did the A end? Did she dump him or did he dump her? And are you sure?

My spidey-senses are saying, "OM dumped her and the June deadline is somehow connected to him -- that his wife made him promise to stay that long, or he's out of the country until then, or something like that, and she's just using you as a substitute until he's available again" -- but of course I don't have all the info and I could be dead wrong. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Mulan

Mulan

MULAN: Asked


Her saying she likes hugging and kissing you, and having SF with you, but does not love you, is awfully weird. Women do not usually work this way. Usually the emotional attachment has to be there on *some* level before we want to get physical. She's saying it's the other way around with her. [Confused]


This confuses me as well, She tells me that she enjoys the Sf with me because I always take care of her need. ( Orgasm ) She also tells me that she loves me in a diffrent way but not in-Love with me. WW claims that there is a very small part of her that wants to save the Marriage. She tells me that she enjoys the Hugs and Kisses and that she does not do it out of obligation it's because she likes it. She is always telling me that it's me that is pushing her away, and maybe I am. I do LB when we have one of are R talks because I don not always agree with what she is saying. I do not always know what to say when she is telling me she wants out of the Marraige. I feel lost and hurt.. most mb'ers tell me this is fog talk..


1) Why is she staying until June? What happens in June? Why June? Is is just arbitrary, or is something else happening then?


This is the date she gave me because the kids will be out of School and it seems like a timeline that I have given my Plan A before going to Plan B.



2) How did the A end? Did she dump him or did he dump her? And are you sure?


The OM did not dump ww but he did make it clear that he wanted no type of relationship with ww, He told her that he would sleep with her and have SF but he would never Date or Marry her. Om is not Married, He owns a home five miles from us and his father lives with him. The Affair ended when CPS gave her a direct Order to end the Affair because of the damage it was causing the children. She also ended the Affair because I confronted OM on two occassions and have made it clear to her that I will pound OM if she goes near him again. I know this is not MB way of doing it but I could not take the hurt anymore, As a man I had to do whatever it took to end this Affair. I also confronted her with Tapes of her last 40 conversations with OM and told her that I wonder if her family would like to hear these tapes..She was very upset that I had a PI keeping tabs on her.


My spidey-senses are saying, "OM dumped her and the June deadline is somehow connected to him -- that his wife made him promise to stay that long, or he's out of the country until then, or something like that, and she's just using you as a substitute until he's available again" -- but of course I don't have all the info and I could be dead wrong. [Smile]


You are correct in some way, Her very last conversation with Om ( Which I played to her ) was her telling him that she would not be able to see or talk to him for awhile because of CPS...She now claims that it has been so long since she has seen or talked to him that she has no interest in pursuing someone that does not want a relationship with her. She does tell me that my forcing her into withdrawal was an eye opener in the way that she feels she made a fool of herself chasing someone that was using her just for SF. He never once filled her Sf/needs ( Orgasm ) it was always about him having an Orgasm. She told me that she has never been with anyone that takes care of her needs like I can and do. WW told me not to long ago that she has no intention of hooking back up with Om thats why she would be moving two hours away so that she does not get that temptation. WW also knows that if we seperate I will be taking the kids and moving to Florida as far away from her as possible....


I hope this helps you understand and better give advice for my sitch, I know it helps me..


UPDATE:

LAst night I did what you told me and actually went and opened the dor and told her if she really wants out then to please go and don't look back, She put on the tears and told me that most couples that go through this just divorce and move on and that I'm a Glutton for punishment in keeping her here, I told her I am not her jailer or or warden, I am her husband and that I may not be perfect but her talk is not as perfect. I asked her to please stop with her LB's and she told me she is very unhappy here in the house but that she can make it happy until June. The way I see it, All I can do is to keep working on my Plan A and making me the Mike she would never want to leave and of course she tells me that no matter what I do she is still leaving in June, everyone tells me this is fog talk and that it takes months for WW to come out of it...I was doing very well not to long ago and she seemed to be moving towards a better marriage but then I had a bad day and it put us where we are now. My bad day lasted 10 minutes with 1 LB the rest of the night ( 6 Hours ) was her dropping many LB's and attacking me verbally and physically..Hope this helps.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mschluter:
<strong> MULAN & LEGATO

We are under a lot of pressure as well right now finacially because of the time I have missed we are not able to make a lot of the bills and things are getting tight here. I know I need to get off my [censored] and get back to work but as it stands when I do go back to work on Monday I will be going back as an Hourly associate because my boss demoted me, he said the company has a policy that while I'm out on medical leave they have the right to not hold my position but that they have to offer me something..Not sure if there are laws to protect my rights and I don't know if I even have the energy to fight it.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Micheal:

Sorry to read you are still struggling so much. I am worried for you in that you seem to have a real problem keeping a job. This is a pattern with you. It is almost like you self sabotage (unconciously) yourself in every job you get. I think your wife's needs for financial stability are HUGE, and you maybe don't realize this. If you lose this job (and I hate to say it, but the writing is on the wall here) then I think this will even lessen the chance you have at recovery with your wife. This is all probably not anything new to you, but as I see it, your job issues are gonna be the nail in your marriages coffin, if you don't somehow avert this and change previous patterns. It is not normal to be out of work as often as you have been. You have to really get to the core root of why you can't keep a job. I think meeting your wife's "other" needs by "kissing her butt" (your words, not mine) are not gonna get you your marriage back. Everyone preaches it is all "about you" here, but untill you can change the disastrous pattern with your employment history, things won't change. They can't change. I would really focus on keeping your job now and earning back the respect of your bosses and move back up in the company. This is something you have control over.....anything with your wife, you don't....so focus your energies on things you can change.

Good luck

LM

LemonMan: Said

You have to really get to the core root of why you can't keep a job. I think meeting your wife's "other" needs by "kissing her butt" (your words, not mine) are not gonna get you your marriage back. Everyone preaches it is all "about you" here, but untill you can change the disastrous pattern with your employment history, things won't change. They can't change. I would really focus on keeping your job now and earning back the respect of your bosses and move back up in the company. This is something you have control over.....anything with your wife, you don't....so focus your energies on things you can change.


I can't agree with you more, But in order to save the house I need to stay at the pay range of 50k plus... I have been talking to another retailer who has a strong interest in me. I have an in person interview on January 20th at 10:00. The regional person is flying in on that day to meet with me. Maybe once I can afford IC again and my meds I will seek help in getting to the core of this issue with me. Thanks LemonMan for all your advice and I hope you keep it coming..

***This is the date she gave me because the kids will be out of School and it seems like a timeline that I have given my Plan A before going to Plan B.***

Yikes -- what a nice summer vacation surprise for the kids. Have you told her you've given her until then before you go to Plan B? You're not supposed to tell the WS you're going to do this -- right?

***2) How did the A end? Did she dump him or did he dump her? And are you sure?***
***The OM did not dump ww but he did make it clear that he wanted no type of relationship with ww, He told her that he would sleep with her and have SF but he would never Date or Marry her.***

Well, there ya go. There aren't many women who wouldn't call that Being Dumped, and Being Dumped in the most humliating way possible. "Sure, baby, I'll f*** you, but I don't love you, I won't be seen in public with you, and I'd never think of marrying you." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> If that's not being dumped, I don't know what is!

She was *forced* to end her relationship with this guy. It was not her choice.

***Om is not Married, He owns a home five miles from us and his father lives with him.***

So the source of this massive humilation and rejection is still close by.

***The Affair ended when CPS gave her a direct Order to end the Affair because of the damage it was causing the children.***

Double-forced.

***She also ended the Affair because I confronted OM on two occassions and have made it clear to her that I will pound OM if she goes near him again.***

Triple-forced.

***I know this is not MB way of doing it but I could not take the hurt anymore, As a man I had to do whatever it took to end this Affair.***

Heh. Believe me, I understand. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

***I also confronted her with Tapes of her last 40 conversations with OM and told her that I wonder if her family would like to hear these tapes..***

Quadruple-forced . . .

***She was very upset that I had a PI keeping tabs on her.***

Quintuple-forced.

Okay. Now I don't blame you one bit for doing all of these things to try to end her A. If nothing else, you needed the information.

My point here is that your wife is not home with you because she saw the light and got herself out of the affair. She is home because she found out her wonderful OM was really just looking for a free scr*w and because her family (you), friends (PI Buddy) and society (CPS) all stood up to her and refused to take her cheating lying down. She got massive, massive retaliation for her A -- far more than most WSs here ever come close to getting.

(Again, I don't blame ya one bit -- I'm just making an observation here.)

So: She is about as caught and humiliated as any WS could possibly be. No wonder she's so scared and angry.

Again, you did the right thing IMHO, but she is going to be a long time dealing with her guilt and embarassment -- with trying to figure out how she went from being a respected wife and mom to being a rejected piece of @ss threatened with losing her children to the label of Unfit Mother.

Do ya see what I'm sayin' here?

She has messed herself up big, big, big time. This is way too big for her to handle alone and she knows it. That's why she's trying her damndest to pretend it never happened. That's why she gets so extremely angry with you if you dare bring up OM or her A in order to get what *you* need to heal (which is of course perfectly reasonable.)

She can't work *around* something like this, as much as she's trying. She can only work *through* it, but she's going to resist this until Doomsday because it is just too painful for her to face. So, she takes it out on you instead because it's a lot easier to blame you than blame herself.

I would suggest that you start a new thread, do some searches, and check the books for what to do when the WS is forced to end the A by being caught, humiliated, and threatened by the courts.

IMHO, this is not something you can help her with on your own. I think this woman is going to need some very serious psychological help to allow her to face what she has done, understand why it happened, deal with the consequences of her actions, and find some way to live with all of it. Otherwise, I think things will slowly and painfully go on as they are until one of you has finally had enough and gets first a separation and then a divorce.

Have you looked into some real counseling? Not one of those two-bit useless marriage counselors we read about here all the time -- BT,DT -- but a psychologist that might give her some real help?

JMHO. Good luck.
Mulan

Here are my thoughts and some more ideas:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> WW claims that she has never loved me </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am very sorry to hear this. That's gotta hurt you to hear her say that. But do you believe it? Or do you believe that she loved you once but now her Love Bank is depleted?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> WW seems to go back and forth with how she feels and I will be the first to admit if we are getting along and I don't question her A ( DETAILS ) then things stay good. If I question her on any type of detail she gets very upset and say's this is not helping us and if you really love me then you will stop this and just leave it alone, She also say's my actions are pushing her away </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this is very important. Go with her on this one. Stop pushing. This is what I meant about poisoning your Plan A. Details can come later. You don't need to know everything right now. I know this is what is driving you crazy right now but I think you need to hear what she is saying here and try and respect it. She's not ready to talk about it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> WW also goes back and forth about SF/Cuddling/Kissing and hugs. She tells me that she enjoys SF with me but feels that her lack of loving me is starting to get in the way and it makes it very hard for her to initiate it with me. She gives me hugs and kisses and cuddles with me all the time and it still surprises me. She tells me that she does not think of OM nearly as much as she used to and that in honesty when I bring his name up thats what makes her think of him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One thing I did notice - you talk about her not thinking of OM as much in the same paragraph where you talk about obstacles to affection and initiating SF.

Perhaps memories and guilt are getting in the way of intimacy. Again, let the memories die. No more talk about affair. She will need to talk about it at some point but let her do it at her own pace. Just be there for her when she does in order to listen - no agenda, no trying to teach her how wrong it was - she already knows that it was wrong.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> WW sat down with me tonight and told me that she will do everything she can to survive her till June but that I should not get my hopes up in saving the Marriage, And that she is only being nice to me so that she can survive here until then. I have the MB theory that if I can learn to be the best Mike I can she may want to stay past June and work on the Marriage </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, sounds like she is planning on leaving in June. Let's assume that she is leaving. Would you still be interested in improving yourself or are you only interested if she stays and works on marriage?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I try so hard to convince her to work on the M that I get mad and upset when she does not agree and yet I understand her reasoning is because of how we are NOW. I just wish I could really understand what she needs from me and what I can do to make things happy around here again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stop trying to convince her - that's what she needs and that is what you can do to make things happier in your house. It's an exercise in futility - you can only change yourself. Lead by example. This is tough. It took me a long time to learn this but once I stopped trying to change my wife and concentrated on what I could do to improve myself, my "fog" cleared.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have done nothing but Kiss my ww's butt thinking this will help her want to stay and I think thats what has been my biggest anger trigger </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stop kissing her butt - it's not going to "help" her want to stay. Why would she want to stay with someone who kisses her butt. On the other hand she is also not going to stay with someone that she is afraid of. There is a middle ground between kissing butt and controlling through intimidation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ww feels the need to remind me time to time about how she feels and this really rips my heart apart because she does it in the worst way possible. Like tonight she told me she loves hugging me and giving me kisses but she does not love me and in her own words she said " what am I supposed to try for something I never wanted in the first place" and she also said " what am I supposed to sit around and hope one day five years down the road that I wake up and go..Gee I love Mike " it's these things she say's that really rip my heart out..

I understand and I feel for you. Hurts like hell. I still think that she did love you at one time and can love you again but your best strategy is to acknowledge what she says. You can't make someone love you. My wife used to tell me that all the time. But in fact I did make her love me - by changing me and making myself irrestistable <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know I need to get off my [censored] and get back to work ... Not sure if there are laws to protect my rights and I don't know if I even have the energy to fight it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, you need to stop obsessing about marital situation and put energy back into work. Give all of this over to God, just let it go, and let Him do what He will do. He will not fail you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ww tells me that she really is on day 52 of NC and that she is ok with it because she feels her Affair was wrong and it bothers her how much it hurt me and she has told me in her own words " If we save this marriage I will never do that again to you" She talks like she really does have remorse for her Affair and I do believe she regrets it 100%.

This is very encouraging. Hang in there; the fat lady is not even in the theatre! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Maybe the past with us has been so bad that she really does not love me and really does want out of the Marraige. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe she feels like this sometimes but I think that you need to lead the way and show her that there is hope. Probably a tall order, but try as much as possible to be cheerful and optimistic; it's contagious.

Are you a poker player? Just run a bluff; tell her that you love her and you want to spend the rest of your life with her. You're going to make her love you again and she doesn't have to lift a finger or even believe it. Just sit back and watch it happen.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I feel like sometimes she really is here to see if I can win her back </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is what I believe. That is definitely where my wife was at. Attention, affection, tenderness, little presents, thoughtfulness, listening - it makes such a difference. What was once seemingly insurmountable becomes very simple. And when you start seeing that it works it encourages you to do more.

Starting from right now, if what you have been doing is not working then try something different. If it works, keep doing it. Otherwise try something else. Don't forget to ask God for help with this. He will provide you with everything that you need in order to accomplish your goals.

Okay Michael, I read through the very last pieces of this thread. Sorry I haven't been around much to keep you fighting the good fight, but I mostly just lurk right now. But, I see that things are going downhill again & I'd thought I'd add my thoughts to the countless others that have spoken so wisely.

A lot of the others told you things that I myself was going to tell you, but I'll add my thoughts anyway. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Okay, let's get down to business. This is going to be a very long post, so bear with me. If you have to, print it out & read it when you have time. I'm going to go back to last week since I stopped reading there.

Today I was having a bad day and tried letting the ww know this, I tried telling her how I was feeling but something I said upset her and before I knew it the LB's were dropped.

You cannot tell your W what you're feeling right now. I hate to say this, I know you probably don't want to hear it, but I think it needs said. Your W doesn't care about how YOU'RE feeling right now. She only cares about how SHE feels. This is the selfish behavior we've been warning you about. She is thinking of HER needs, HER wants, HER desires. Yes, she had a little scare there for a bit b/c Mike was actually exiting on her, but now that you're back, it's back to what SHE wants.

I feel I need her help to heal

You cannot rely on her right now to help YOU heal. You need to rely on GOD ONLY. Do you hear that? GOD ONLY! He is the only One who understands what you're missing, what your desires are, where your heart lies. Take all of your problems to HIM & let HIM help you, not your W. She is UNRELIABLE at this point. She CANNOT help you heal. She cannot even heal herself right now.

The ww keeps telling me she wants to take it week by week

This is the exact attitude to have, Michael. You have to break it down even further & take it DAY BY DAY. We are only given 1 day at a time. So use those days. Each day wake up w/a new attitude & think of each day as a way to promote God's love. Believe me, this is the ONLY way you are going to survive all of this. While you're doing that, concentrating on 1 thing you can do that day to promote God's love, each attempt to get closer to Him, you WILL start to recover & you WON'T CARE if your W decides to leave in June.

When do you know you can trust your ww again? I mean it's been 43 day's and I still have my doubts, is this normal and should I try talking it out with her?

You cannot, absolutely not trust her right now. She is giving you every reason NOT to trust her. You having your doubts is perfectly normal at this stage. My H's been home for 11 months, recovery is great, both of working hard at recovering our M, but I STILL HAVE doubts. This normal. I wouldn't be too worried about it.

she did not know what she wants.

She doesn't know what she wants right now. Realize this thing, Michael. Repeat after me. She is within satan's grasp right now. He has a hold of her thoughts. He is influencing everything your W says & does right now. He is the KING of confusion. He will put these thoughts into her head & your W is very vulnerable. She BELIEVES them. With all her heart. He has cast doubt over this M & she is BELIEVING his lies. This is the way it's going to be for a while. How do you combat it? By getting closer to GOD, by letting GOD help you, by praying for your W every day for satan to loose his grip on her thoughts.

I just don't understand after 44 day's of No Contact how she can still be in the fog and talking like this,

44 days? Nothing. I know many WS who have gone BACK to contact after this time. No one person has a set time limit of when they will come out of la-la-land. It's all in their OWN time. Besides, God isn't through w/you yet. He wants to get YOU to His side. How can he turn your W's heart when yours hasn't been turned yet? Did you hear that? Let me repeat it again. HOW'S GOD SUPPOSED TO TURN YOUR W'S HEART WHEN YOU HAVEN'T TURNED YOURS YET? Did you do the Bible study? Have you really listened to Him speak to you? I hear you say that you want God to help you, God please help me, help me, but I don't see you making an effort to go to HIM. Go to Him, Michael. Don't sit back & wait for Him to come to you.

She talked to me some more about how she feels like we will never get through this and that I will never forgive or forget what she has done.

Aha! Clue! She feels hopeless - SAME AS YOU! You both are feeling hopeless. Who is the lord of hopelessness? Satan! He has overcome this M & you need to take steps to loosen the grip he has over both of you.

She is talking about next xhristmas but then telling me she is leaving in June, she does this often and it confuses and gets my hopes up.

Confusion as I stated above.

I told her if she can't talk to me with compassion or as an adult without being mean and nasty then please do not say anything to me at all..

Good for you! Boundaries! You need them. Being a Christian does NOT mean that you let people treat you like garbage. Stand up for yourself! But, learn how. When she gets like that to you, tell her exactly what you told her before, but be careful that you aren't nasty back to her. God says it's ok to be angry, just don't sin in your anger. Which means, stoop down to her level & call her names, mistreat her, etc. just to make a point. Two wrongs DO NOT make a right.

well last night I asked her if she would be willing to tell me the rest, and before I knew it she blew up, was dropping LB's and telling me she hates me and would rather be with any other man then me,

Guess you learned your lesson, right? She does not want to talk about it w/you right now. When you 2 are in recovery & you will definitely know it when you are, then you can deal w/hearing the rest of the A story. Right now she isn't ready to commit fully to the M so how can she be completely honest w/you? She can't. It's a whole lot easier for her to take her frustrations out on you than it is to face the things she has done.

I called her into work today so she could get some rest, she slept all day and then got up pissed because I called her into her job, I cooked dinner for the kids, took my youngest for a walk and then played upwards with my 10 yr old..

Guess you learned your lesson again. Don't assume things for her. If she got barely enough sleep, let her suffer at work or try this -- nudging her a little & ask her if she wants you to call her in to work that day. Don't assume. Never is a good thing. As far as making her happy, you CAN'T. Only SHE can make HERSELF happy. You are trying too hard, Michael. She is resisting you. Stop before it kills you.

Some people said some great things to you, let me repeat them:

Please do not base your happiness on her reactions to you or her moods.
It's not about WW.
You can only control YOU. Do not let anything WW says or does impact you.
She's not in any shape to talk about her future plans.
It sounds to me like you are trying to do this whole process *for* her

Hmmm, Mulan has a great point. Sounds like you're doing things FOR her. She needs to come at this M in her own time. I know you're impatient but ALL GOOD THINGS come to those who WAIT. Let God continue to heal you & in the process your W will take notice & want to come back to your M. But you must give it time, Michael. I don't have a time frame, if you're looking 4 one, you're going to be mightily disappointed. Only God knows when & how. Let Him handle it.

I am scared, I fear her making contact again, I fear her leaving, I fear her getting mad at me, I fear what this is going to do to the kids.

Fear is overcoming you. What did I say before? Satan is the lord of confusion & fear. He is using those fears to make you feel hopeless. Put your trust in GOD & GOD ONLY. He is the One who's going to save your M. Let Him. Put your trust in GOD & those fears will eventually go away. Yes, you will still be frightened, but it won't be as intense as it is right now. Let Him carry you throught this crisis.

everyone say's to focus on me and the kids and the house but it's so hard to find a reason to smile, It's so hard to sit there and get verbally assaulted whenever she feels the need.

I'll give you a few good reasons to smile, ready?
1) Jesus died for your sins so you could be eternally alive.
2) God loves you
3) Your kids love you unconditionally
4) You survived a suicide attempt, you were saved for a reason
5) You have internet friends who care a great deal about you
6) Your W is still living w/you - Blessing? What? you say, but a lot of people on here want their S's back b/c they've separated & their S is not visiting their children
Why don't you try to make a list of "Things to be Thankful for"? I did this & posted it next to my computer at work. It's still there I refer to it every time I feel like giving in to something that feels hopeless. I look at this list & remember everything that God has given me & continues to give me & I feel ultimately blessed. It helps me focus on the good, positive things that I have in my life instead of dwelling on the negative.

She has her good day's and she has her bad day's...lately I must admit that it has been more bad then good.

This is satan causing destruction. Combat him. Work w/God to combat him. Satan has seen that your W has had NC, saw that she actually did care if you lived/died, saw that she is "starting to have some kind of feelings" for you, so he has to try to stop that. He is pulling out all the big guns to try to completely break the both of you! He will rejoice if this happens. He will say, 'One more on my side. God you couldn't save this one.' But guess what? Yes, God can save it. And He will. You just need to have the patience & strength to endure all of it. Because in the end, when your M is restored, this will be just a faint memory when you look back on it in time.

She wants to get mad? LET HER. LET HER GET MAD. If she really goes nuts, call the cops. DO IT. Let HER deal with the consequences of her own rotten behavior.

I love Mulan's words. Let her face her consequences. If CPS sees that she is in contact again & has your W suffer for it, LET IT HAPPEN. She is actively choosing to participate in whatever it is. LET HER FACE THE CONSEQUENCES OF HER CHOICES. Can't stress this enough.

You cannot control what she does -- but you can control what you are willing to put up with in your life.

Love it. Wise words.

ww wants me to stop doubting her and just triust her, she broke down and cried on Friday telling me that I will never trust her again and that I will always throw her A up in her face ( I have done this a couyple times latley )

This is what she means when you push her away. Right now you don't forgive her & she feels hopeless b/c she thinks you never will.

You may want to try repeating back word-for-word what she says so that she knows that you heard her like, "I hear you saying that you don't want to be here but that you will stay until June". Just word-for-word. (MC taught me this)

Love it. This is what we were working on before remember? Maybe we can try this again. Along w/your Bible study <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Up until this time you were romancing your wife and she was responding. It seems like here that your Taker re-emerged, angry and impatient that she was till not committing to your marriage. And also that you were not only angry but enraged at OM and the pictures that were re-playing in your head were driving you crazy. You vented here which was good but it seems that things kind of spiraled down from this point, around Dec 23 .

I agree.

Well i'm sure you and OM will be happy together or maybe you should have been more of an adult and kept your pants up"

You already know this was a bad statement. I don't want to kick you when you're down. Enough said.

You have worked very hard and I commend you but you've got to do something about your anger. It seems to me that this is your challenge. It's poisoning your Plan A. You need to do everything you can to make your home peaceful and a pleasant place to be.

Couldn't agree more.

Make sure that it is safe for her to be honest with you;

Is the environment safe for her to do that?

Some day's she talks like she could leave that day and be ok with it and yet when I give her the go ahead she backs down and cries and we make up and she tells me she wants to try to make it to June.

Flip-flop, flip-flop. See the confusion?

Hope this helps a little bit. Sorry it was so long. But I did have major reading to catch up on. Michael, we're all worried about you. You need to SURVIVE. Please, I urge you, get into that Bible study & concentrate on your R w/God right now. He's the only One who's going to be able to help you overcome this anger & resentment & help you heal. Recover YOU.

Toughts are with you, God bless.

Love in Christ,
Y

update:


Things are getting really bad here,

WW and I were up all night fighting, things got broke words were said and i did the best I could not to Lb until the end when she made a comment about her and Om that just about set me off on the pasth of ripping OM's heart out of his chest...


She told me that she misses OM and that she is not going to break no contact because of the things it has caused, Even though she does not Love me it hurts her that she hurt me so bad..

WW also attacked me and Son got slammed up against a wall by her. I restrained her and told her she needed to leave, She left the house for 15 minutes and came back crying saying she was sorry and that she is hurting really bad.

I'm at a loss on what to do or say anymore, Maybe it is time to call it quits and move to D

Did you read my most recent post to you? It's near the top of page 11.

Sorry things are going so horribly. But once it gets physical and the kids are geting slammed around, somebody needs to move out until things cool way, way down. All bets are off at that point.
Mulan

I agree with Mulan. Once things are dangerous for you kids it sort of changes perspective on whether its worth fixing. First priority is to make sure your kids are safe. Make sure that happens. Getting "Physical" should never be tolerated.

Miker