Cerri,

I was reading through your posts this am( had a couple of surgeries cancel on me, so I have some reading time). I will save you the embarassment <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> of telling you how much I admire your practical and first hand approach to problems here at MB. Among others , I always try to read any and all of your posts.

My question I think is quite basic, but since I am not an expert in your field, I may be simplifying due to my own naivete. As a doc, I know when I see certain patients with medical problems and assess their overall condition, I have a pretty good sense of what will or won't work. What we call the prognosis. These factors can be listed and undergoe some scrutiny at hospital meetings and while there are always patients that defy the odds and recover , in reality those are few and far between.

What specific factors , when you listen to your clients initial interview(s) make that little voice in your head pop up and say , this does not look good. Or even worse what factors immediately bring you to the realization that there is nothing that you can do that will help this M regardless of how much energy you put into your sesssions?

I know you are vdry busy with your practice but I would appreciate any comments that you might volunteer.

Very interesting question! I'm looking forward to cerri's response!

Cy:

I won't speak for cerri, but I suspect that, even if there are such indicators, the goal of a M coach isn't 2 come 2 a prema2re conclusion and influence their OWN thinking about the chances. Also, perhaps unlike cases of physical conditions that need 2 be treated, Spouses have 2 first believe that they can save their own marriages, then want 2, before they can even begin 2 understand what they need 2 do and why they need 2 do it.

Just my paradigm (20 cents).

-ol' 2long

Great minds, Cy, great minds! I already asked her this SAME question a while ago when she was posting over on Recovery. Never got an answer . . . hmmmmm . . .

The more I thought about my question, the more I realized that it could be too individual, too situational. However, I phrased my question differently ~ Mine was "Are there any common denominators that you see in M's that make it to recovery?" Or something like that. I don't think I actually used the word "denominator," but couldn't think of an alternative once it got in my head! Good word.

Spidey

Cy ... my guesses ... in no particular order ... things that may function as a sort of marriage undertow that pull in ways maybe unseen until caught...

multiple affairs in the past

pre-existing psychological issues

other addictions (ETOH, cocaine, etc.)

family of origin with a culture of infidelity

the idea that once the affair is over, everything is OK and therapy is avoided

a closed family system that rejects outside help

Pep

Pep,

Great initial list!

2Long,

I disagree that you can't come up with any problem that is finite for an apparent inherent variability.

The instrument we are using now is just based on a series of zeros and ones. The utter complexity of our universe can and has been translated almost completely into mathematical models.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I disagree that you can't come up with any problem that is finite for an apparent inherent variability. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What? Arg!! Too many big words in a row! WTH?

I'm not Cerri, but I have read that if it was a one time ONS chances are better. Also if the WS breaks off the affair on D-day it is more hopeful. And the last one is if the WS is willing to answer all questions, and be accountable.

CYMANCA----THE MOST common denominator for the destruction or breakup of the marriage is the existence, the continue contact of the OM!!!

If you eliminate the OM, all those other things, are workable , you can go to therapy.

MY humble oppinion... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

MYRTA

Cy:

"The utter complexity of our universe can and has been translated almost completely into mathematical models."

It sure has! But has it been translated successfully? Hell NO!!

I deal with this all the time in my work, with people trying 2 "model" physical processes on another planet. Sure, the whole universe behaves within the laws of physics, but the subtleties of that behavior will forever defy modeling. All it takes is one more "discovery" 2 throw all the previous models out the window.

And human behavior would make my Mars rocks seem "logical" by comparison!

Quantify away, though! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-ol' 2long

*********Threadjack********

2long - what are your thoughts on metaphisics?

I'm interested in the idea that we are energy and since energy can not "die" we go on forever in some way.

I have been dying to ask a real scientist that question. My brother is a phyisicist, but he just rolls his eyes at my silly questions. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Do you bye into the metaphisics world of thought?


PS - your short answer will do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ December 17, 2004, 07:02 PM: Message edited by: weaver ]</small>

Weaver, once again I agree with you!

That's because you are my identical twin. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Along time ago I thought we had the same name, Cathy Sue.

I love metaphisics and "A course in Miracles" and if I wasn't such a Christian I would love Wicca. Tried it but I just can't come to terms with the "god" and "goddess" thing in Wicca. Feels like blasphamy to me. But I think I would be really good at it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

weaver:

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Short enough for you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I don't know about the afterlife, just that I've always liked afterlife movies - "What Dreams May Come" is my favorite!

"Infinite" is a pretty big number! Who knows what the possibilities are?

-ol' 2long

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Touche!


Ah well Csue, I guess we can take that to mean a big... YES!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Really sorry about not answering on the Recovery Board - I didn't see it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

I've seen studies and read other opinions that state the #1 indicator of divorce is Conflict Avoidance. Which is, of course, a misnomer. The only way to avoid conflict is to errrr.... die.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> The real name for it is Dishonesty, either about actions or about feelings. Not so much about thoughts and opinions since they are often disrespectful and don't need to see the light of day beyond one's own internal rumblings.

In no particular order, then, I would add to that -

Blaming - refusal to look away from the actions and (mis)deeds of one's spouse and address the internal changes one needs to make to protect and nurture the marriage.

Living in the past - it's a great way to do both of the above - avoid conflict and blame one's partner.

Failure of compassion - anger and control issues, either subtle or overt. We all have them to some extent and most of us will choose our "right" to be disrespectful, demanding, or angry as the hill to die on. But when we do, the marriage dies too.

Being nice - The Taker gets a bad rap as the destroyer of marriages. It's true that the Taker has exceptionally poor social skills. But the real culprit in setting up the Taker's wrath and in creating chaos and disconnect is the Giver.

Entitlement - the bad kind - There's a multiple page discussion about the difference. I have soooo many clients (mostly women) that I wish I could open their heads and their hearts and pour in a healthy dose of entitlement - the kind that manifests as self respect and excellent boundaries.

But the other kind - the kind that says "I have a right to make me feel good even if it sucks for you," is a marriage killer. And in our logic-is-everything society it's rampant. "I have to work these hours, help out this friend, play golf, spend this money, because......" always followed by some very logical reason that does nothing to address the feelings of the couple. Marriages are not protected and nurtured by logic or by who has the better argument they are protected and nurtured only by being considerate of each others feelings.

A seemingly genetic mix up about the whole idea of not hurting feelings. We shrink in horror from the idea of saying "that thing you want to do/are doing doesn't work for me, please stop," because it might cause pain but we are adamant that we have a right to cause pain by doing things our spouse doesn't like. Completely the opposite of what makes a marriage work.

If those things are addressed and avoided then stuff like addiction, infidelity, abuse, neglect, etc have a really hard time taking root. If they are already present there are mechanisms for addressing them. Those mechanisms will not CAN NOT guarantee that the marriage can be saved or healed but they give the essential information needed in order to make an informed decision about what to do next.

C

ps - I was a premed student and biology is still my first love. Someday I'll need to pick your brain. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Great post Cerri !!!

Thank you so much.

I don't fully get your meaning in the following part ....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A seemingly genetic mix up about the whole idea of not hurting feelings. We shrink in horror from the idea of saying "that thing you want to do/are doing doesn't work for me, please stop," because it might cause pain but we are adamant that we have a right to cause pain by doing things our spouse doesn't like. Completely the opposite of what makes a marriage work.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Can you elaborate... I am a tad confused with the "genetic" remark.

Are you saying that the discussion of pain is taboo ... but the inflicting pain is not?

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> A seemingly genetic mix up about the whole idea of not hurting feelings. We shrink in horror from the idea of saying "that thing you want to do/are doing doesn't work for me, please stop," because it might cause pain but we are adamant that we have a right to cause pain by doing things our spouse doesn't like. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I didn't have a problem telling my H last year that what he was doing was hurting me, except . . . what he heard was my trying to control him. What I thought I was saying is, "Please stop, you are hurting me." What he heard was, "The only acceptable way for you to live your life is by following my guidelines, x y and z."

What I know from 8 months of MC is that an outsider probably would have heard neither. Because the way my hurt played out was with a LOT of AO, DJ, and demands on my part. And it just blew my mind at the time that my H didn't "hear" what I was trying to say!

I guess he didn't have an "insults means hurt" translator.

So, I would have to say that poor communication can be a Marriage Killer, too.

Spidey

Sorry - bad wrist - trying to condense and doing it poorly. That's what I get for playing carpenter. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

No, what I mean is it seems to be instinctual that we abhor making our spouse uncomfortable by asking him/her to cease and desist doing stuff that we find objectionable, icky, uncomfortable, or just plain irritates us.

But we don't mind making our spouse uncomfortable by inflicting our own selfish choices on him or her.

If marriages are going to work we need to do exactly the opposite. Be willing to confront (politely of course) and ask for change on stuff we don't like. And be willing to avoid doing stuff our partner doesn't like.

Bill Harley has this saying that we should not sacrifice for our spouse. As much as I think he's brilliant I think making and reiterating that statement was a huge mistake. Most of us view "sacrifice" as giving up something as negative or absence of exerience. What he meant is the exact opposite - we shouldn't do something or give something that we're not thrilled with. A positive or additive experience.

'Zat help?

C

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, what I mean is it seems to be instinctual that we abhor making our spouse uncomfortable by asking him/her to cease and desist doing stuff that we find objectionable, icky, uncomfortable, or just plain irritates us.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This I "get". Thanks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But we don't mind making our spouse uncomfortable by inflicting our own selfish choices on him or her.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This I "get" as well. In Schnarch's "Passionate Marriage" he calls this our reptilian response.

Pep