Yes - I love that name, don't you? But we have to keep in mind that the reptile (the Taker) is only awakened and angry when the zookeeper (the Giver) has given all the food away to someone else.

After an experience I had yesterday and sleeping on this question overnight I have an addendum.

cerrish and I own a duplex - rental property. Over the weekend I had a call to see the open unit. After playing phone tag for a day or so we finally made contact and both the interested woman and I were surprised to find that we knew each other. She has a child that attended preschool with one of my kids and they now attend the same elementary school. We've done the playgroup thing together and we chit chat at school functions when we cross paths.

I met her at the duplex yesterday to show her around and being the nosy sort I am asked few questions. As it turns out she is leaving her H and taking her two small children with her. When I said, "I am so sorry," her reply was - "Finally, after all these years. I just need to get out."

I knew a little of her history from conversations when our kids were in preschool. And cerrish and I once gave her H a ride home from a party where he'd been having far too much fun late into the night without her. I don't think he ever knew that I knew who he was..... mmmmm..... I dunno that he even remembers that we gave him a ride home. Anyyyyway....

I didn't press her for details just offered my condolences and dropped the subject. But it got me to thinking. I listed underlying conditions above and I think a constellation of those things occurs to some extent in virtually every marriage that fails.

But I think there's a common dynamic that occurs in all non-infidelity divorces that needs to be mentioned as well. It goes like this.

One person is unhappy with some aspect of the marriage. Could be protection could be care. S/he brings it up - probably in a way that is not all that resepectful or skilled - but brings it up nonetheless. AND NOTHING CHANGES.

Sure - there might be change for a week or a month - sometimes for a day or a weekend. And then things return to the way they were before.

The one who is unhappy (to some extent they both are but there is always one who is more so) will continue this process over time. Then s/he'll give up. In some cases this is where an affair starts (but it's not the only reason people have affairs - they happen in good marriages too) and in other cases the person leaves or files for divorce.

In the case of those who file for divorce it is overwhelmingly a woman who does so. More than 2/3 of divorces are initiated by women. And the month with the greatest number of filings is by far January.

Here's the thing that needs to be remembered and integrated into marriage. If your spouse is unhappy about any aspect of your life together - hear it, validate it, and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT ASAP. Get professional help to create change right now today. If you don't you are very likely to be one of those January statistics.

C

Cerri, wow. That post is awesome. Thank you so much. Hope that wrist is feeling better, so you won't be slowed down in your posting addiciton. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

In my reply yesterday to your first post on this subject, I mentioned communication skills being a Marriage Killer, and gave an example in my own life.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But we have to keep in mind that the reptile (the Taker) is only awakened and angry when the zookeeper (the Giver) has given all the food away to someone else. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your words here give me pause, however, in that aspect. I think I had let so many many little things go with my Giver, that by the time H's behavior had gotten so painful to me, my Taker was a HUGE out of control MONSTER.

Which clearly leads right back into the boundaries issue you were talking about. I kept letting MY boundaries out, just as H's kept letting his out, to accomodate inappropriate behavior. I found emails that were NOT Ok with me. But I didn't force anything to happen at that point. To be honest, if H hadn't moved out on his own, I don't even know if I would have forced him out at that time, because I was so dependent on him emotionally. I can phrase it in all kinds of romantic ways "Two halves that make a whole" stuff (that I don't believe anymore, anyway), but it is dependency nonetheless.

Specific examples seem to be just different stages of the core things you mentioned.

AND, the thing about infidelity, is that the M is forced to change. It is the loudest "cry for help" from my H that I ever have gotten. And so painful that we both have supreme motivation to maintain those changes.

Anyway, thanks for posting again. I love it.

Spidey

Cerri:

You mentioned living in the past:


Living in the past - it's a great way to do both of the above - avoid conflict and blame one's partner.

My ww is always reminding me of things from the past ten yrs, Losing jobs, no stability, name calling, LB's Gallore. How can you get someone to move on and forgive the past. I would be greatly appriative if you could give me some insight on this as it seems to be my ww's biggest gun right now..

The entitlement thing was really an eyeopener for me. My husband and I always had problems because he continually put other people before me. He always had a good reason. His niece needed him to fix her electricity, his brother-in-law needed help with fixing up his boat, his friend needed his house replumbed.

All this took up every weekend. I started planning ahead for time together. But at the last minute, some "emergency" always came up - where his help was needed. Talking to him did no good. After several years, I had enough. I told him that I was no longer going to do ANYTHING with him, until he did something I wanted to do.

So he hooked up with OW. Now it is her problem. He is continuing his pattern of an intense campaign to do things for her. But once they are married, it will be all over. Just like it was with us.

If I may, I'll chime in here, as the reconciliation of physycs/metaphysics has been a subject that has long fascinated me. There is a book called "Synchronicity: The Bridge Between Matter & Mind", written by a Physicist, F. David Peat, which is as close to an answer as I've ever gotten.
In essence, he decribes that no matter how deep scientists delve into our world, they eventually run into variables that just cannot fit into the mathematical models so well-cherished by the community. Even the evolution of these mathematical models over time supports this view, I think.

Cerri,

Thanks so kindly for your replies and the effort you put into them. I do have a couple of follow up questions if you don't mind.

I read on another site that the importance of a non-A "friend" ( usually herself unhappily divorced" is often a great impediment to reconciliation. Is that true, and if so how do you suggest removing that influence if she is now living with your WW?

Is the WS 's psyche so warped by their dishonesty that they have a hard time imagining the BS forgiving what they have done( because they wouldn't) and therefore seriously doubting that true forgiveness can ever be accomplished and not being used as a 2x 4 if problems do inevitabley arise again in the M?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But the other kind - the kind that says "I have a right to make me feel good even if it sucks for you," is a marriage killer </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Since this sense of entitlemet is so pervasive in a large number of personality defects( and my source is a lot of psychiatric/psychologic texts) would the very rapid initiation of a strict plan B( absolute no contact, loss of social, community and religious standing,financial abandonment, truthful wide community exposure, and persuing the legal aspects of the divorce) have a better or worse chance of success?

My personal feeling is that the total all out assault such as plan B as described gets that WS to hit that "rock bottom" of their lives very quickly, especially when the proximity of the BS reactions leave no doubt as to the source of these punitive actions( the use of the word punitive is unfair to the BS, so I would refer you to noodle's quote in my sig line for a better decription). As you may have guessed this last paragraph has been my stratagem from the time of our first and only false recovery day.

Thanks for your time and consideration

Mschluter:

How can you get someone to move on and forgive the past. I would be greatly appriative if you could give me some insight on this as it seems to be my ww's biggest gun right now.

Well, it's pretty difficult to "get" someone to do anything unless they're on board with the idea. So I think the real question is, "how do I change what I'm doing in order to avoid the situation or change the dynamics when it happens?"


Can you give me one or two examples of what she says and how you react?

C

Spacey - I would tend to agree with you. Although my personal theory is that the science of science has just not caught up with the wonder of the universe. Not so much that there's a discrepancy between our mathematical models and the variables that don't fit but that the models are simply still too crude. The book sounds really interesting - I've added it to my wish list.

C

Cymanca:

Thanks so kindly for your replies and the effort you put into them.

Very welcome. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I read on another site that the importance of a non-A "friend" ( usually herself unhappily divorced" is often a great impediment to reconciliation. Is that true, and if so how do you suggest removing that influence if she is now living with your WW?

Oh yes!! I've said over and over again that women friends are often one of the most destructive things for a marriage. From the time we're 3 or 4 and certainly once we start school, girls stick together. We shop together, we talk for hours on the phone, we compare dates, we laugh and cry and share everything. Heck - we even go to the bathroom together when we're out somewhere.

So it's only natural that the first person we run to when our marriage is hurting is our best friend. And just like when we were dating in junior high and high school and college the response is going to be the same. He's a creep, he doesn't deserve you, dump him. We put our friend and her needs ahead of the marriage and its needs.

You can't remove the influence. At least not right now - possibly in the future. You have to work with that energy rather than against it. If the friend hates you acknowledge (to your wife) that she might have reason to, that you can see where she's coming from, and that you've probably been as horrid as she thinks you are. Do NOT go into a big production about how you've changed. We've all heard it a thousand times since we were 11 and we're not buying it. Words are cheap - you have to show her without words that you've changed.

All that aside - if she's having an affair and out of the house probably you shouldn't be in contact anyway. The issue of the friend will have to wait until the A ends and you start talking about reconiciliation.

Is the WS 's psyche so warped by their dishonesty that they have a hard time imagining the BS forgiving what they have done( because they wouldn't) and therefore seriously doubting that true forgiveness can ever be accomplished and not being used as a 2x 4 if problems do inevitabley arise again in the M?


I don't know tha their psyche being so warped by dishonesty is the cause so much as buried shame and guilt, but yes, that's much of what goes through the head of someone having an A.

Since this sense of entitlemet is so pervasive in a large number of personality defects( and my source is a lot of psychiatric/psychologic texts) would the very rapid initiation of a strict plan B( absolute no contact, loss of social, community and religious standing,financial abandonment, truthful wide community exposure, and persuing the legal aspects of the divorce) have a better or worse chance of success?

When someone is having an affair they LOOK LIKE they have a personality defect. That doesn't mean they do. Personality defects must be present before the affair and in many if not most cases since adolescense in order to be a disease and not a symptom. The model you want to be looking at is not so much mental illness or disorder as it is addiction.

Plan A addresses the expose and confront stuff - and therefore the possible loss of standing/respect with family, friends,church, etc.

Plan B is to protect you - not to inflict punishment. In fact, none of the strategic moves are to inflict punishment - they are steps necessary to bring about the end of an addictive behavior, to protect both you and the WS, and to give the marriage the best chance possible to reconcile and heal.

But yeah - short focussed Plan A followed by a swift Plan B is better. Even if the Plan A was not perfectly executed it is still better to be shorter rather than longer and to get into Plan B.

My personal feeling is that the total all out assault such as plan B as described gets that WS to hit that "rock bottom" of their lives very quickly, especially when the proximity of the BS reactions leave no doubt as to the source of these punitive actions( the use of the word punitive is unfair to the BS, so I would refer you to noodle's quote in my sig line for a better decription). As you may have guessed this last paragraph has been my stratagem from the time of our first and only false recovery day.

Plan B is not an assault. That would be an angry outburst. Stuff like confront and expose should be done as close as possible to d-day in conjunction with things like avoiding LB's (confronting and exposing are not LB's) and meeting non intimate needs. All of that is Plan A.

If any part of the strategy is intentionally punitive you will be more likely to fail. It has to be about protecting the marriage, your feelings, and your spouse from your inevitable outbursts. Some of the things you need to do to protect all that will appear punitive but they are measures taken in love. If you see the marriage as an entity separate from you as individuals and you hold as obligatory your need to protect the marriage even if that means doing things that your spouse may not like it is easier to see what needs to be done and the spirit in which you need to do it.

C

cerri, I have so enjoyed reading your responses here. It's good to see some thoughts from someone who deals with this among a wide variety of people.

There seem to be several folks here...more than maybe usual, who do not have children with their SO and who might or might not already be separated. Should Plan A's or B's be modified in these cases or does it just depend? (SH seems to feel that Plan B should not necessarily be implemented in these cases).

I think there's a kernel of truth to having no ties, being young and so maybe it *is* better to just move on. But on the other hand, we want to rebuild our marriages just as much as anyone else. We see the same potentials as those with children.

Plan A is good for anyone regardless of the situation insofar as the changes you make in yourself. Preparing for a divorce but keeping the door open to reconciliation has been a good thing for me. But there is going to have to be a point where I realize that it's just not going to happen (unless there have been significant changes to indicate that it might). It is not at all clear to me when/if Plan B should be implemented, especially if there is not a specific OP involved.

Cerri,

Thanks again for your insight. I guess I want to apologize for the use of the word "assault"( very inappropriate in this or any forum), I did not mean it in any physical or revenge manner. My desire was to ask if ALL of those plan B actions done at the exact same time, instead of nibbling away piecemeal is the recomended way to go.

Excuse my medical analogy, but in anesthesia, there are different levels or planes of awake from conscious to completely unconscious. The danger is always in lingering in an upper area of hyperexcitability, so the purpose is to get the patient through all levels as quickly as you can with all methods (drugs) at hand. My feeling, as a pure amateur, would lead me to believe that an action of such destructive force as an A , great danger, indeed ongoing damage is done to both WS and the BS by staying in ANY contact with the each other while the A is still in progress. I guess if you have been paying attention to this board there have been some notable proponents ( and arguments pro and con) against this "death of a thousand cuts" Plan A.

And one last question if I may? Of the couples you have counseled, what is the average M succes rate? What about when only one of the partners participates in the counseling. Sorry, my medical training is very outcome based and perhaps you have not had the opportunity to quantify your results. I would also appreciate being directed to any published literature that examines these issues other than those mentioned on MB and SYMC boards( almost all of which I have already read).

I greatly value your input and suggestions.

maddyk:

There seem to be several folks here...more than maybe usual, who do not have children with their SO and who might or might not already be separated. Should Plan A's or B's be modified in these cases or does it just depend?

Not having kids does make a difference in some ways. Kids are one of the greatest ties we have to each other in marriage. Once the financial stuff is worked out in a divorce it really and truly is possible to completely remove a former spouse from one's life if there are no kids. Completely impossible (for most) if there are.

Modifications huh? Hummmm...... Well Plan A still needs to be confront/expose/make personal changes. Not much modification there. To some extent it depends on the length of the marriage. The thing you have to look at and think about is the depth of attachment - that's what we want to play on and trigger. A very short marriage is going to need more work in terms of leaving a good impression - eliminating LBer's and meeting non intimate needs. A longer marriage with more ties - not as critical.


I think there's a kernel of truth to having no ties, being young and so maybe it *is* better to just move on.

Possibly - there's certainly less trauma when there is less to divide and fight over. We can read the research on the effects of divorce on the individuals but I'm not sure they're quantified by length of the marriage prior to divorce. Still, I wouldn't say it's better - I'd say it's less horrifying.


But on the other hand, we want to rebuild our marriages just as much as anyone else. We see the same potentials as those with children.

Exactly. And by virtue of the vows you've taken you've created an entity that is bigger than the sum of you and your spouse. A marriage is more than just an agreement and a piece of paper. It is a living breathing creation that you have promised to protect and nurture.

Plan A is good for anyone regardless of the situation insofar as the changes you make in yourself.

Yesssss...... but that's not the goal of Plan A. Plan A is a negotiating strategy to bring about an end to an affair. It is not about you and the changes you make (or about making your mate happy) - it is about ending the affair. That means there are things you will have to do that make your mate particularly unhappy. Part of the strategy is to address destructive stuff you've done and part is to meet non intimate needs (you most likely will not be allowed to meet the intimate ones) - but that's not the goal. You can do Plan A in a day or in a letter if that's all you have the strength to muster.

But there is going to have to be a point where I realize that it's just not going to happen (unless there have been significant changes to indicate that it might). It is not at all clear to me when/if Plan B should be implemented, especially if there is not a specific OP involved.

Well - not knowing your story in any depth - that's a provocative statement. If the issue is lots of OP or if it's an addiction of another color or if it's simply eggregious neglect the process is pretty much the same.

Honesty about what you experience and what you know.

Ask and negotiate for change. Including asking for input on what your spouse needs to give you what you're asking for.

Expose infidelity or other addiction in an appropriate and respectful way.

Create an atmosphere of calm. This does not mean don't be honest - it means don't be demanding, disrespectful or lose your temper in the process of being honest.

Eliminate your own independent and annoying behaviors.

Meet non intimate needs.

If you do all that and nothing changes then it's time to think seriously about separating. Sooner for infidelity/addiction longer for neglect.

When you separate you need to have the details planned ahead of time and you need to be clear that you are ready for no contact. Having intermittent contact is destructive and negates the purpose for separation.

There is a school of thought surrounding what is called a controlled separation where there is some contact. I wouldn't suggest it for infidelity but I have a student who's used it successfully for couples with other issues.

C

Cy -
Are you always this pesky? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> LOL

I guess I want to apologize for the use of the word "assault"( very inappropriate in this or any forum), I did not mean it in any physical or revenge manner. My desire was to ask if ALL of those plan B actions done at the exact same time, instead of nibbling away piecemeal is the recomended way to go.

OH! Ok - I get it. Sorry - too many kids with video games, my mind was thinking assault as is Mario and Luigi.

Yes - the harder you can hit at one time the better. And sooner is better too. When you think about the chemistry of all this you can see that the risk of deep attachment is greater the longer the affair is allowed to have free rein. Exposure is one of the best tools out there and it should be done immediately.

I was reading over on JFO this morning and someone posted something like - "you can't confront without..." evidence or facts or something like that. Sooooo not true. The minute you suspect something is up you need to say so. "Honey, there's an odd charge on the cc. I checked it out and it's for ____. I'm wondering what that's about?" Or - "I see this number is on the cell phone 168 times in the last month - I'm very concerned. I'd like to know who this is and why there are so many calls."

Excuse my medical analogy,

Mmmmm...... I happen to like medical anaologies <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> And yes - that is exactly what we want to do. Do what needs to be done as quickly and as focussed as possible.


My feeling, as a pure amateur, would lead me to believe that an action of such destructive force as an A , great danger, indeed ongoing damage is done to both WS and the BS by staying in ANY contact with the each other while the A is still in progress.

Yep - that would be precisely the case.

I guess if you have been paying attention to this board there have been some notable proponents ( and arguments pro and con) against this "death of a thousand cuts" Plan A.

Instead of looking at the arguments - look at the results. I made this challenge a couple of years ago and I think it might even be in one of the things I wrote that gets quoted often - but I'll make it again.

How many cases can you find where the BP has
a)stayed in Plan A longer than the recommended time - and
b)not done the immediate hard hitting confront and expose and been successful at healing his or her marriage.

And by successful I mean - 1. the A is over 2. precautions are in place to prevent it from happening again 3. destructive stuff in the marriage has been addressed 4. needs are being met or negotiated for 5. the couple is spending time together and reporting feelings of connectedness

People argue both sides of a whole lot of things. Having a good sounding argument doesn't do much of the results don't back it up.


And one last question if I may? Of the couples you have counseled, what is the average M succes rate?

Did you read this article? What Are My Chances?

What about when only one of the partners participates in the counseling. Sorry, my medical training is very outcome based and perhaps you have not had the opportunity to quantify your results.

No need to apologize. Those are questions you should ask. I haven't done a head count. I could if you like. See if the above article answers your question and let me know.


I would also appreciate being directed to any published literature that examines these issues other than those mentioned on MB and SYMC boards( almost all of which I have already read).

I would read Shirley Glass - Not Just Friends I would read Helen Fisher Why We Love. Fisher's book The Anatomy of Love is also interesting and helpful but you have to keep in mind that the research is older - WWL is cutting edge. I would read generic addiction and recovery stuff as well. We need to tie this picture of infidelity to what we know about addiction and recovery - they are twin siblings.

C