I can’t count the number of times I have read here, and in affair books, that WSs suffer from low self-esteem. A character flaw, as it were. Low self-esteem is more often than not asserted as a primary reason they were vulnerable to the A.

I have been more than a little suspicious of this assertion. For one thing, WSs on MB seem to have two things in common: a sense of entitlement, for whatever reason, before and during the A; and a lot of frustration, after ending the A and entering into recovery, that BS is not doing things the way WS feels they should be done. BS is not on WS timetable, acting too reserved, not getting over it yet, acting too angry, asking uncomfortable questions for too long, and/or... Fill in the blanks.

These descriptions come from both WSs themselves and from BSs writing about what they are dealing with during Plan A, Plan B and during recovery.

These are not descriptions of WSs with low self-esteem. After everything WS has done, to feel these things and to act this way is a conceit in the extreme.

I am happy to say, someone appears to agree with me. There is an interesting article on self-esteem in this month’s issue of Scientific American. (Exploding Self Esteem the Myth, by R F Baumeister, Jennifer D Campbell, Joachim I Krueger and Kathleen D Vohs). The authors dispute the prevailing assumption that low self-esteem causes antisocial behavior in general and poor individual choices in particular.

Let me back up a bit. A few years ago the state of California decided that low self-esteem was the root cause of most social problems including, in typical la-la-land logic, low state tax receipts. So school systems were legislated to embark on a program of proactively building students’ self-esteem.

Well, this example of social engineering hasn’t worked. Not even a little bit. Grades are not better. Delinquency is not less. Recidivism is higher. Basically nothing is improved after years of proactively building self-esteem in students from kindergarten through college.

In the article, the authors note studies that demonstrate just the opposite is the problem. It is not low self-esteem but over inflated self-regard that correlates best with bad behavior and general unhappiness in life.

In particular, students given strong doses of personal responsibility improved their grades much more than students given a steady diet of esteem building.

Some examples from the studies show that schoolyard bullies are actually full of high self-esteem. People who cannot maintain long term close personal relationships, who tend to run when difficulties arise, and who do not face problems in a marriage all score high in self-esteem.

Also, high self-esteem correlates with the ability to start, but not maintain, relationships.

The correlation between people’s inflated self-assessments of themselves and their various issues is high. On the other hand, people clinically evaluated with low self-esteem do not have these problems nearly as much, do not tend to have affairs and are generally happier in life.

Further, when rated by others who know them, these high-self esteem people are scored much lower in admiration than they admired themselves. Evidently, others see the real high self-esteem person much differently than they see themselves. And this is even before the A.

Over-rated self-esteem is a characteristic of selfishness. Extreme selfishness is a marker for infidelity.

Perhaps self-esteem ought to be included in marital compatibility questionnaires. Then the prospective spouse should run from anyone whose self-esteem is high compared to how others see him or her.

Keep in mind, being later told you were vulnerable to an A because you have low self esteem and then convincing yourself of it, is not the same as having a high regard for yourself when you were starting the A and while you were doing all the work maintaining the A.

T

PS: New word for the week: floccinaucinihilipilification - the action or habit of estimating as worthless. It’s a characteristic of someone who cannot see the good in much of anything outside themselves. The lower one’s self esteem, the more floccinaucinihilipilification they tend to indulge in.

Thos - you just made my day.
I remember when I was teaching that this philosophy came along about building up self-esteem and I disagreed with it at the time. One of many that came along during my career and we would close our doors and do what we knew worked.

The only way you can really feel good about yourself is by working hard and achieving - reaching your potential, whatever that may be. I have thought this from the start (dday) and my FWH has agreed that the reason he had the unfair was that he was a selfish idiot and it was the biggest mistake of his life.

Another analogy is in sports. You can tell an athlete that he is really good and he is going to do really well in a race, trying to build up his confidence, but it will not work unless he has done the work needed.

If you tell an athlete before the start of a race that he has done all of the proper training and he is in just as good shape as anybody on the course he will have a much better chance of performing to his potential and in the final outcome will have high self esteem.
Well earned self-esteem!

My H was in the local papers constantly, being lauded for various achievements, when he started his unfair. He never blamed me at all but when I kept pushing for a reason, some childhood need that was going unmet, some dark inner issue, the only thing he could come up with was that he felt that I was criticizing him a lot of the time.

What I was really doing when unfair started (but going about it all wrong I now realize) was asking him to help me out with domestic chores so that I would have more time to spend with him.
He took that as criticism. You never do blah bah blah.
We were just so busy that we were spending too little time together. Enter younger woman who wants him and he is hooked and addicted.
Still bugs me that he did not have time to help me but had time to meet her for lunch.

I have wasted a lot of time searching for the whys of the unfair. He was selfish. End of story.

I think his unfair was floccinaucinihilipilification.
Have I got that right?
PW

It may well be that figuring out the why’s of a spouse’s A is a fool’s errand. The jury is still out for me. Perhaps it is in the end as simple as extreme selfishness and too high a regard for themselves.

Like Clinton said, “I did it because I could.”

Now there’s a guy with high self-esteem.


Edited to add: PW - I read a study several years ago that compared good primary school teachers with not so good teachers. The difference was good teachers teach no matter what the current education fad is. The poor teachers were relying on some new trick instead of rolling their sleeves up and taking personal responsibility.

T

<small>[ December 18, 2004, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: Thos ]</small>

PW - "unfair", I love that!

That is very interesting to me. I need to think about it some more, as I thought affairs were a low self-esteem issue - with the need for flattery and ego boosts and all that. But maybe that is another issue.

It interests me mostly because of my daughter. She has very high self esteem, if she has that entitlement issue to go with it, than the whole world is in trouble. And I mean that.

I am glad you posted this because I really need to put some thought into it. And I am very serious about my daughter and her self esteem. This worries me because she does kind of give me the impression that she feels a certain entitlement.

I have often quoted Clinton's "I did it for the worst reason, because I could."

The other thing is that these people with high self-esteem are often very attractive. The self-esteem is rightly deserved and that makes them have many attractive qualities.

The 13 years younger XOW in our case was disappointed when she found out that her "new attractive friend" she met in the gym was married and then she decided to pursue him anyway and get him away from me.
Didn't happen. He loved me. She was just a fling that lasted way too long because of my denial.

Interesting stuff. Now I have to admit that the XOW does have some problems and if it wasn't low self-esteem in the beginning I am sure it must be now. I hope she is getting therapy. In my mind she is a very sick person and that is based on her history prior to involvement with my H.
PW

But, think about that 'sense of entitlement'. This is not the same as esteem. It is a justification for satisfying base, temporal appetites, to the degredation of self. It goes hand in hand with dishonesty (to self *and* others), the inability to curb the insatiable in oneself for some higher purpose.

The fact that the 'sense of entitlement' overrides personal integrity is, to me, a major sign of low self-esteem. To dishonor oneself--in those situations there is no part of the self that stands up for what is right or what is good in the self, so the transgression is carried out. For lack of self-esteem.

Sufficient self-esteem, God-esteem, higher-ideal-esteem--any of these would have made me strong enough to reject the MM's advances/silence the clamoring inner voice.

Admittedly, I did rush thru your post.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Some examples from the studies show that schoolyard bullies are actually full of high self-esteem. People who cannot maintain long term close personal relationships, who tend to run when difficulties arise, and who do not face problems in a marriage all score high in self-esteem.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think I buy it.

Self-esteem and self-confidence... two different things...

Show me a schoolyard bully, and I'll show you a kid with high self-confidence, and low self-esteem.

Having read too much about NPD -- way too much -- what I hear you talking about is classic NPD.

(caveat: what I just wrote was a knee-jerk reaction -- I'm open-minded about the whole subject, in spite of my presentation. I'm just tired, that's all. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> )

After everything WS has done, to feel these things and to act this way is a conceit in the extreme.

But, being conceited is a sign of low self-esteem. Joe Cool aka Snoopy once said: “If you have to tell yourself you are cool, then by definition you cannot be cool!”

Let me back up a bit. A few years ago the state of California decided that low self-esteem was the root cause of most social problems including, in typical la-la-land logic, low state tax receipts. So school systems were legislated to embark on a program of proactively building students’ self-esteem.
Well, this example of social engineering hasn’t worked. Not even a little bit. Grades are not better. Delinquency is not less. Recidivism is higher. Basically nothing is improved after years of proactively building self-esteem in students from kindergarten through college.

The above paragraph reflects one truth: No one can give self-esteem to someone else. Self-esteem can only be improved internally and I agree with you. Modern day pop psychologist who work for the school systems do not have a clue about what self-esteem is all about.

In the article, the authors note studies that demonstrate just the opposite is the problem. It is not low self-esteem but over inflated self-regard that correlates best with bad behavior and general unhappiness in life.

Inflated self regard is a typical Freudian mechanism of defense used by those who feel inadequate.

In particular, students given strong doses of personal responsibility improved their grades much more than students given a steady diet of esteem building.

OF COURSE!!!!!! The self-esteem can only be improved by one’s achievements and by reaching a state of integrity where the outer appearance reflects the inner content of a person.

Some examples from the studies show that schoolyard bullies are actually full of high self-esteem. People who cannot maintain long term close personal relationships, who tend to run when difficulties arise, and who do not face problems in a marriage all score high in self-esteem.

Oh Pallez, they score high in selfishness and their aggresivity is a sign of not being happy with what they have. It seems these folks equate good self-esteem with selfishness. Or maybe they imply that if you are happy with what you have you must have low self-esteem. I believe the latter is incorrect. A person can be a house painter and be fully realized and enjoy his craft whereas another person can be an Ivy League trained lawyer who is so ambitious and dissatisfied with what he has that embezzle money.

The correlation between people’s inflated self-assessments of themselves and their various issues is high.

I think the term "inflated" is very telling, don’t you think?


On the other hand, people clinically evaluated with low self-esteem do not have these problems nearly as much, do not tend to have affairs and are generally happier in life.

It all depends on how they define self-esteem. It seems they equate high self-esteem with feeling entitled. This is treacherous as folks with low self-esteem often feel undeserving------- however they only feel this way if they do not compensate. If they compensate or as you say "ingflate" themselves then they appear to be something else.

Further, when rated by others who know them, these high-self esteem people are scored much lower in admiration than they admired themselves.


Well-------- of course. Others can tell these folks are inflating their egos because they have a complex of inferiority!

Overrated self-esteem is a characteristic of selfishness. Extreme selfishness is a marker for infidelity.

But-------- they key word here is Overrated!

Simply put, Ws, school yard bullies, etc..... do it because they are selfish. When their selfish tendancies are left unchecked (by self or others), then situations, people and things suffer (i.e. work, families, home, friends, finances, mental/emotional stability, etc.).

Now the fix it not as simple. No magic or quick cure. Once that selfish tendancy takes root, it generally takes even longer to tear out. But it can. It depends on the person who has allowed it to take root in their heart. All the deep seated emotions and their actions have to be skillfully removed and the good part of that person, left in tact. Scars often are left as a reminder of how bad it once was. Sometimes called triggers, these scars c/b insensitive to some touches and very sensitve to other types of contact. Still it can be healed.

JMHO,
L.

Studies like these make me laugh.....because it is assumed that the people being studied are telling the truth, not deceiving themselves, etc. You can not EVER accurately measure another person's thoughts or what they TRULY feel about themselves because a man's heart is deceitful above all things....even to himself. The mind is powerful in that it can trick itself ABOUT itself.
And comparing other people's opinions with the opinion you hold of yourself....what's that about? How in the world is that a scientific measurement?

Thos, can you tell me.....WHY do you want to know WHY? What would you do with that information, once you knew, assuming it was completely accurate?


NOW

Self-esteem is feeling that you are valuable and lovable.
Self-esteem is developed in the early years by having a close nurturing, loving bond with a significant person, be it a parent, grandparent, sibling or other person.

Does this sound like an accurate definition?

Self-esteem also means living your life according to a set of principles and standards (religious or not).

Self-esteem also means living your life according to a set of principles and standards (religious or not)

For the most part, I post as the BS, but there was a time many years ago when I was a WS. Not the same kind of affair as my XH had that caused the DV. I didn't know about E/A's so I suppose staying in contact as friends could have been considered an E/A, but the P/A was very short and I never had any intentions of leaving my H.

NEVERTHELESS!!...it was an affair, and at the time it happened, my self-esteem was in the toilet. I was not focused on God (hadn't done a good job EVER committing to living his way after I was saved), and I let myself do something very stupid because I felt unloved, unwanted, lonely, and OP made me feel good.

But in the end, did my self-esteem increase? Did I feel all better about myself. Absolutely NOT! I felt worse..,.much, MUCH worse!

Fast forward to now. I am now DV because my XH had his 2nd affair (and his are in-your-face, "entitled" affairs). I'm sure I could have turned to someone during this very painful year and found comfort. But I knew it wasn't right, and I knew it wasn't what God wanted for me. I now know, after my painful learning experiences, I am worth more than lowering myself to that.

And now, I can look back and be proud of how I handled myself during this whole ordeal. I lived my life according to a set of principles I believe strongly in, and I feel much better for it.

LL

PW – “The other thing is that these people with high self-esteem are often very attractive.”

Right. This is also in the article. High self-esteem people regard their appearance highly.


Tgt – “Self-esteem and self-confidence... two different things...”

Perhaps. I don’t know, myself. Self-esteem seems to affect one’s confidence, though. That high self-esteem people are better at initiating relationships is discussed in the article. Where some have trouble is in maintaining relationships honestly.

BTW, what is NPD?


Stanley – “But, being conceited is a sign of low self-esteem. Joe Cool aka Snoopy once said: ‘If you have to tell yourself you are cool, then by definition you cannot be cool!’”

Heehee. I remember that particular strip. I need to point out that some of the words I used in the parts of the post that reflect my thoughts are not necessarily what the authors would have used. Conceit is one of them. I used that word of my own volition when describing what I read regarding some WSs here. The word is not, as I recall, used in the article.

My post should be partitioned into three sections. An intro of my observations and why I thought the article was relevant to me. A body that describes some of the article. Lastly, a conclusion that expresses some more of my thoughts, in my words.

Stanley - “Inflated self regard is a typical Freudian mechanism of defense used by those who feel inadequate.”

Freud. Well, as I recall Freud is largely passé in psychiatric circles now. He lives on in pop psychology mostly. But I will say this. AI researchers are using his mind map effectively in state of the art autonomous robot research. I worked on an AI project a while ago where we implemented an Ego processor as part of the awareness cycle. Very successful project too.

Stanley – “Oh Pallez, they score high in selfishness and their aggresivity is a sign of not being happy with what they have. It seems these folks equate good self-esteem with selfishness.”

Again, the article says only they score high in self-esteem. Any relationship to selfishness is only in my separate op-ed section. I probably should have made my thoughts and my words more clearly separate from the article highlights.

The article does state: “Bullies reported less anxiety and were more sure of themselves than other children.”


NOW – “because it is assumed that the people being studied are telling the truth, not deceiving themselves, etc.”

I think you are certainly correct. They discuss this issue in the article. One method used was to track subjects over an extended period of time and interview them in more than one way.

NOW – “Thos, can you tell me WHY do you want to know WHY? What would you do with that information, once you knew, assuming it was completely accurate?”

Good question. I have been under the impression that S_ needs to figure out why she did this, and did it for so very long. If she cannot undertsand why, the MB opinion is lightning will strike again. Remember, I am dealing with a LTA that started atypically – only two days after they met for the first time. There wasn’t any of this not just friends stuff or a long slippery slope. She leapt off the edge of the cliff immediately. So why? They just clicked?

And, she kept it going during six months of MC after DDay1. Even though she demonstrated true remorse, she did not end it. She did not even tell OMM I knew. (OMM claimed when I confronted him after DDay2 he would have ended it then and there. Certainly an arugument for exposure, huh.)

I guess I need to feel safe. I am looking for a reason, a cause, that can be addressed and eliminated. ENs and personal boundaries do not seem to be the complete answer here. Add in FOO issues, self-esteem, my own relationship habits and ten other factors and it quickly becomes way too confusing for my feeble mind.

T

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have been under the impression that S_ needs to figure out why she did this, and did it for so very long. If she cannot undertsand why, the MB opinion is lightning will strike again.

I guess I need to feel safe. I am looking for a reason, a cause, that can be addressed and eliminated. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thos - I think this is the key. You need your W to understand and communicate clearly to you why she did this. You NEED her to, in order to feel safe. If she has issues she is reluctant to face, then it is your boundary that she must at least make a decent effort to face them, and keep going until she can give you an answer.
The answer might involve self-esteem, or it might not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Add in FOO issues, self-esteem, my own relationship habits and ten other factors and it quickly becomes way too confusing for my feeble mind.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thos,

You're not alone. We humans are a complicated bunch. If there was an easy way to figure these things out, we'd have done it long ago. I do hope you find some answers that will help you come to terms with this....at least enough that you can move forward. Sometimes when I think I've figured out why I cheated on my husband, I start to wonder if "that" was really it....I wonder if I think "that" because that's what I've been TOLD, or if I've just managed to convince myself of a reason just for the sake of having some sense of control over it...usually, the more I learn, the more I realize how very little I really know.
We're all in this together....BS's and WS's...we really are on the same side.

Best to You,

NOW

Thos -I suppose I did get self-esteem mixed up with self-confidence. I think you can work on building self-confidence but self-esteem is developed very early in life. IMHO

With regards to finding the answer to the big WHY, I know that when I read Noodles thread called Good Fences, I found it helped me with understanding why.

It was not that either of us had personal issues to deal with (at least not in our case I think) but it was more of a case of poor boundaries. And once you cross that boundary once, then WTH, it was fun, once more won't hurt and before you know it, there is an unfair relationship going on. Some needs are being met - maybe just excitement and thrill, living on the edge, maybe just diferent sex - but then it can be hard to get out of and it does become an addiction.

And as long as the spouse does not know the infidel figures nobody is really getting hurt.

I allowed my H to have this friendship and I should not have allowed it at all. I was so secure that he loved me that I did not think he would cross that line. I don't think either of us had any idea just how very much it would hurt.

So now I know better and so does he.
By the way have you ever read Chorus' WHY? I searched but can't find it. If I find it I will post it.

PW

THOS:

I just wanted to thank you for sending me the book SAA ... It has helped me so much and my ww finished reading it and so far she is on day 27 of NC..

I can't thank you enough...

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=035064

You know, this discussion reminds me of one of those National Geographic specials where some English Phd is trying to explain the behavior of some aboriginal culture. It's interesting, but invariably little more than a few stabs in the dark with some dogged insistance on the applicability of a self determined theory.

I am an ex-WS. I have met many ex-WS and some current WS. While the general mechanisms involved with affairs tend to be similar, there are a variety of reasons why people may choose to enter into an affair.

Low self-worth is a big one. Affairs are self-destructive behavior...just like drugs, alcohol, and other risk taking activities. If one does not have a very high opinion of one's self, or for that matter, has little sense of who "self" even is, one is quite likely to engage in bahaviors that may be self destructive.

You know why I did it? It's an escape from the failure I believed was my real life. I wanted to feel successful and desirable...at any cost. I convinced myself that I'd been miserable long enough and deserved better (sense of entitlement).
This can be quite confusing to the BS who may perceive us as being successful and confident...but it's not about how YOU perceive us. It's how we see ourselves.

I believe it's terribly important for a WS to come to a point of understanding about what happened (or is happening) to them. Most BS find it very difficult to believe that their WS doesn't know why they did it. It's the truth. It took me a VERY long time to really understand why I fell and even longer to come to a place where I believed I could prevent it from happening again.

It's less important that my wife knows why I did it than it is that I know why I did it and can assure her I won't do it again.

So, simple labels like "selfish" are obvious because affairs are obviously selfish behavior. They are not helpful. What is driving the selfishness is truly what's at issue. When the WS can identify what's driving the desire, they can then resolve it and come to peace with themselves.

I believe selfish behavior is most often driven by a fragile sense of self...driven by fear.
Before my affair, my sense of morality was severely challenged. I wondered if the morals I'd chosen to live by had any value whatsoever, so I gave myself permission to experiment with alternate moralities. I was trying to redefine my "self". I was beating myself up for wasting my life on sacrifice and honor when I could choose the reward RIGHT NOW and enjoy it. Things went very twisted from there.

Low

To add a note about boundaries...

Boundaries are only a part of the explanation. Lack of boundaries may allow OPPORTUNITY for infidelity, but won't drive the WS into it. The primary component is a disconnect in the marriage relationship.

So, you can apply new boundaries all day long, but if you don't fix the relationship you'll do nothing but create frustration, anger, and resentment.

On the other hand, if you repair the core relationship issues, you will have less need to rely on iron boundaries.

Low