After the holidays I will be going into Plan B. WH has been living out of the house since Nov 21. He came recently to pick up the "old" mattress which I informed him would be going to goodwill, so he promptly borrowed a truck and came and got it.

Well, I really do not want to "try" to save this marriage anymore. Every single time I get a glimmer of hope that he has/can change he pulls some stupid crap. I have no way of knowing if he is in contact with her. I assume he is. Actaully yes I do know, he sometimes has a "slip" of the tongue and in not so many words, he makes it known.

here is an email that I sent to someone the other night. This is ONE example of his selfishness, immaturity, personality.

I know you will be upset with me, but I really need to get this off my chest and get some advice...I was taking my sons to school this AM and I said in passing that we could all go to the movies tomorrow and see A series of unfortunate events, meaning all of us including daddy...My oldest said "well, that wont work" I asked why not and he said "because you guys argue too much" I told him that we were going to do our best not to argue anymore. I then asked him how he felt about us not being married and just living with mommy. He said he wanted us to stay married, but I explained to him that if we cant work this out, that we may not be able to stay married anymore...I asked him why he wanted us to stay married and he said "cuz I want both of you" I said "you will have both of us" he said "NO, I want both of you all the time"

Well, this got me thinking. I have completely shut my heart off to WH, so I thought, maybe if I can open it up a bit...he has been nice lately and he really does want to try to work this out, etc, etc...I started thinking maybe we could work it out...When I spoke to WH, he asked me if I wanted to join him for dinner with the staff, his office party. I said ok, but I would have to bring the kids...he said he was going to go out and do some "errands" and be home at FIVE! I said "FIVE, why so late"...it was 1:00 at this time! He said "oh, i just need to go and do some things" ME, being the person I am, thought to myself..Oh goody, he's going shopping for ME! He is actually going to go buy me something for our anniversary and for christmas...he is going to put ME before himself for once...

Well, silly me! How stupid of me to think that...I got al the kids dressed nicely...I took a shower, fixed my hair, put my makeup on, was going to wear a nice black mini skirt with a nice spandex sweater and black high heels...5 o'clock came and went! 5:30 came and went. I sat down and looked at the clock, it was 6:00...the phone rings. it is him!

WH: HI
me: hi

WH: i got held up, meet me at the restaurant

me: what do you mean you got held up

WH: oh, you dont want to know

me: yes I do want to know

WH: dont worry about it, I was doing something for the clinic

me: what were you doing?

WH: you DONT want to know...you know me, when I get something in my head, I just do it

me: tell me what you were doing...you were supposed to be home at 5:00, I get NO phone call from you, and you are just now calling me at 6:00

WH: my phone ran out of battery, look, just meet me at the clinic

me: NO, you tell me what you were doing today

WH: ok, I bought truck for the clinic

me: WHAT! you did WHAT? Why on EARTH do you need a truck

WH: because I need one, its' a write off and I realized yesterday that when I was picking up that mattress, I needed one

me: OK, fine, WH, I am not going to that restaurnat with you...goodbye


So, why am I sooo upset? for one thing, he DOES NOT need a truck for his clinic! He needs a truck for himself...to tow his race cars! cuz I wont let him use my suburban...so what does he do...instead of doing things for me, he goes out and buys himself a damn truck and says it is for the clinic! I am furious!

See, it is just little things as this...NO PHONE CALL! NO nothing...always thinking ofhimself! I dont think I can make it til next weekend! What od I do now? I hung up on him...I am NOT oging to eat with him...what to do?

He mentioned earlier that he was going xmas shopping, when he knew he was going to buy this truck...I have talked to him til I am blue in the face about not hiding things from me anymore...I have asked him to PLEASE include me in his decisions. I told him it is not that he bought the truck, but the way he handled it.

He went to the resturaunt and was there all by himself. He sat there with everyone else with THEIR families, and he was all alone. I took the boys out to eat myself. Yesterday we saw A Series of Unfortunate Events together. Without the WH. Great movie, btw.

I have been told that I really need to try to save this marriage. UGH.I just dont think I can...or even want to. He is sooo completely self absorbed, immature, and whatever else he is.

Aside from that...I am supposed to be writing a Plan B letter...I cant even think of anything nice to put in it except all the horrible things he has done to me this past year. Any advice? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Oh yea, today is our 12 year anniversary! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Moving....I am reluctantly beginning to understand what you're going through. How can they do this to us?? What right do they have? I was never asked if I wanted to play this game, I was never asked if it would be okay to fragment our family. The reasons I was given whey he "just can't stay married to me anymore" were complete BS. I can't even get his a$$ to admit that there is anyone else, he'd rather have me believe he hangs out with some obscure new friend I've never met (neither has anyone else) than to just come the hell clean.

I am sick to my stomach about all of this, I can't believe the man that I love and who says he'll "Always love me" would do this to me. He's so self absorbed it makes me want to throw up.

I too am planning on going to plan B after the holidays, but I am going to kill myself uncovering his affair before that time (not much time I know) but I'm tired of the lies, tired of the secrecy, tired of being told "I was just out running around, Phil picked me up" Phil....yeah right THERE IS NO PHIL!!!!!!!!!!!

And the really cool part is, I get to go Christmas shopping with him tonight.....I don't know how I'm going to be able to pull this off, I've found out more about him and her calling each other just last night....there aren't enough anti-depressants in the world to get me through this.

-Caren

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have completely shut my heart off to WH, so I thought, maybe if I can open it up a bit...he has been nice lately and he really does want to try to work this out, etc, etc...I started thinking maybe we could work it out...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This shows a remarkable lack of insight on your part.

1. You have never completely shut your heart off to WH. Not once. When you do, you will feel calm, and saddened, not at all angry. You will feel a resolved indifference to him.

2. What you "opened up a bit" were your safety boundaries. Not your heart. You relaxed your requirements for a responsible marriage partner. You broke your word.

3. WH being "nice" is nowhere near being faithful, responsible, and decently honest. Most abusers are "nice" and even remorseful ...between their abusive rages.

4. He wants to "work it out" in as much as finding out how he can keep both you and OW. Nothing has changed. Most importantly, you have not changed. The part you are willing to play is not different than it was months and months ago. You could have written this exact post last summer. You remain in limbo waiting for him to "decide". Where is YOUR decision?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, why am I sooo upset?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you look deeper, you are upset because YOU set yourself up for disappointment.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am furious! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You should be furious.... at yourself for playing the game, setting expectations, accepting "nice" as good enough, furious at yourself for lying to yourself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See, it is just little things as this...NO PHONE CALL! NO nothing...always thinking ofhimself!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The little things !?!?

You mean the little things like honesty? Faithfulness? Caring? Loyalty? Honor? Courage?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have talked to him til I am blue in the face about not hiding things from me anymore...I have asked him to PLEASE include me in his decisions. I told him it is not that he bought the truck, but the way he handled it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Talking, asking ... blah blah blah. Why are you doing all of this? I think you get some "sense" of control by posting the conversation verbatum ... but it is always all talk.... blah blah blah .... and, as Dr, Phil would ask.... "How's THAT workin' for ya so far?"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have been told that I really need to try to save this marriage. UGH.I just dont think I can...or even want to. He is sooo completely self absorbed, immature, and whatever else he is.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nice try to paint WH as the only offender here. Your actions have "conflict avoidance" written all over them. Arguements are NOT what this marriage needs. Telling WH for the one thousandth time what you think and feel are NOT what this marriage needs. Waffeling your own boundaries over and over are NOT what this marriage needs.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Aside from that...I am supposed to be writing a Plan B letter...I cant even think of anything nice to put in it except all the horrible things he has done to me this past year. Any advice?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Acknowledge being a conflict avoider since the beginning of this affair and not honoring your own boundaries.

Acknowledge that you'd rather argue with WH than be strong and decisive.

Acknowledge you have changed or broken your rules so many times yourself, no wonder he has no idea of where your limits are.

Acknowledge tolerating his poor, disrespectful choices because of your own weakness.

Acknowledge setting the bar too low at "nice" when what you need to be doing is setting the bar higher.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So, go ahead, tell me how mean I am !!! Tell me how what I have written is an "attack" .

Words words words..... How about some action" ??? !!!!!

Pep

<small>[ December 19, 2004, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Hi Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> No, I am not giong to tell you how mean you are, or your words are an attack! What you say is all true! I know i have "let" him do this to me over and over again, because of MY own actions! Because of my OWN weaknesses. I am only spinning my wheels. Why? Because I feel sorry for him...When I have told him I dont want to save the marriage, or that I need to go into plan b, he begs for ONE MORE CHANCE! then does things to make me feel for him.

The reason I say i have shut my heart down, is cuz I do not want to get hurt anymore. Then I feel badly about it and I start hurting for him, for this family, for my kids. He doesn't care if he hurts me, he just wants both of us as you say. I know that to be true.

he will also say, well if you will just let me come back home, I will stop calling her or stop seeing her. He doesnt' understand that in order to come home, he must stop all contact with her...but I believe he is incapable of that.

I have a question for you Pep? I really dont feel like I have any feelings left for him. I feel sad for him..I think he is pathetic. I feel sorry for him...but love, I dont feel like I love him anymore...First of all, do you think I should try to save this marriage? Second, if you do, do you think going into plan B will help with those feelings? Third, do you think he will EVER change?

I am tired of spinning my wheels...I want to move onto SAT and start fresh. He WONT quit the NH, he WONT sell the clinic. Either I stay in the place with all the bad memories and resent him for the rest of my life with her all around us, or he sells it all and resent me for the rest of my life. I dont see a win win situation here at all?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am only spinning my wheels. Why? Because I feel sorry for him...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope. Wrong answer. Self-deceiving response.

Because you are weak. Stop trying to spin your weakness into a virtue.

Do you want my honest opinion, or not ? Are you willing to get a 2X4 right now? or is this bad timing?

Pep

Yes, i want your HONEST opinion. Yes I am ready to get 2 x 4'd. I want you to tell me what you think I should do...I am ready to divorce him...but I would like to know what you think. go ahead...I'm ready...as spongebob would say <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

STOP LYING TO YOURSELF !!!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He doesnt' understand that in order to come home, he must stop all contact with her</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a lie. He "understands" perfectly.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">but I believe he is incapable of that.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a lie too. He is perfectly capable. He is unwilling.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I really dont feel like I have any feelings left for him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a lie too. Yes, you do have feelings for him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel sad for him..I think he is pathetic.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And what about you? Do you feel that you are pathetic as well?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel sorry for him...but love, I dont feel like I love him anymore</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a lie. You love the man deeply. You no longer respect him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First of all, do you think I should try to save this marriage?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First of all, I think you should fix yourself!!! YOU are one of the broken pieces here. Where is the glue that puts YOUR integrity back where it belongs?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Second, if you do, do you think going into plan B will help with those feelings?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think Plan B is a farce when done by you. Your H knows all about MB methods.... and he will be in front of Plan B out maneuvering you at every turn.... just like he's done before.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Third, do you think he will EVER change?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Third ... I am not sure you are changed !!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am tired of spinning my wheels</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No you're not. You're doing your spin with this last post of yours. spin spin spin

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I want to move onto SAT and start fresh.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ahhhhh.... change locations so YOU will not have to change the things YOU need to change???? Bright idea? NOOOOOOOOO

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He WONT quit the NH, he WONT sell the clinic.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What the hell does this have to do with YOU making a decision to change?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Either I stay in the place with all the bad memories and resent him for the rest of my life with her all around us, or he sells it all and resent me for the rest of my life.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you really this unimaginative?

If YOU do things to change yourself, the outcome choices automatically change.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I dont see a win win situation here at all? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because you are self-deceiving and spinning yourself into the victim roll .... and you seem to be stuck .... NOT stuck by WH's choices.... but stuck in your own response, spin, wash, spin, wash cycle re-cycle.

What about yourself are you willing to change?

Pep

<small>[ December 19, 2004, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

LOL! Yes, I NEED to change myself. But how? Plan B? I cannot do it while I am still in contact with the WH! we all know that...Now you say that the WH knows about the MB principles...of course he does and he uses that to HIS advantage. He uses it as an excuse. He'll say stuff like "I was in the fog, what about you"...he knows the MB principles, but he is unwilling to use them...he hates this place.

OK< now, onto me...yes it is very easy for me to put the blame on the WH, cuz I let him do this to me. But how do I change that? What do I do? How do I change ME? Why do you think I still love this man? I dont FEEL like I love him! I literally get the creeps when he touches me. And even if I do try to save this marriage, will I ever be happy? Will I ever trust him? I cant just save the marriage cuz of the kids...we have to both want to save the marriage! But dont you think there is so much damage already? Tell me the truth! I can change, but I am not sure I want to change with him in the picture. I want to change for myself. without him!

Sooo, what next Pep? What do I do now? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">but I believe he is incapable of that.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a lie too. He is perfectly capable. He is unwilling.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">RIGHT! so what is the point! He is UNWILLING to do anything! He is impulsive, immature and self absorbed. he only thinks of himself...so why on earth would he be WILLING to change. Why do you think anything *I* do will make him even WANT to change. Even if I change myself, do you think he will really be willing to do anything? And what is it that I should do?

What makes you difficult or annoying?

Let's see where you go with this simple question.... start with this.

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">RIGHT! so what is the point! He is UNWILLING to do anything! He is impulsive, immature and self absorbed. he only thinks of himself...so why on earth would he be WILLING to change.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What is the point? You are unwilling to do anything! You are impulsive, immature and self absorbed. You only think of yourself .... so why on earth would you be willing to change?

----> try this on .... see how it feels..... does this remark motivate YOU, or push you away??? If it does not motivate you , why use this tactic on your husband???

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why do you think anything *I* do will make him even WANT to change.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why does *Pep* think anything she says will make you even WANT to change?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Even if I change myself, do you think he will really be willing to do anything?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What self-babble you've gotten used to speaking to yourself!!! Alien who??? Read what you wrote again .... and tell me how useful it is to you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And what is it that I should do?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am pretty close to being finished with this conversation.

What are YOU willing to do to have it continue?

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> What makes you difficult or annoying?

Let's see where you go with this simple question.... start with this.

Pep </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, what makes ME difficult or annoying? hmmm, I probably nag too much, I dont "get it" the first time around...obviously! I ask too many questions...I allow others to manipulate me...I am not honest with myself...that's a start...let me think about it some more and see what else I can come up with!

Originally posted by Pepperband:
What is the point? You are unwilling to do anything! You are impulsive, immature and self absorbed. You only think of yourself .... so why on earth would you be willing to change?

----> try this on .... see how it feels..... does this remark motivate YOU, or push you away??? If it does not motivate you , why use this tactic on your husband???

I actually dont say this to my husband! this is what Dr. Phil said to him, and I tend to agree with him, as does many others! honestly, he is the one who brings this up in passing sometimes...he'll say "I know, I am immature, bla bla bla"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why do you think anything *I* do will make him even WANT to change.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why does *Pep* think anything she says will make you even WANT to change? Because you offered your opinion and I want to hear it...I do want to change. I have had it with everything the way it is going...whether it be going forward TOGETHER or APART, something has to change and I need help doing it. I need advice. I am ready to listen. I know I cannot change my HUSBAND...He has to WANT to change himself...I CAN however change MYSELF and I NEED to change myself. SO please give me your advice.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Even if I change myself, do you think he will really be willing to do anything?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What self-babble you've gotten used to speaking to yourself!!! Alien who??? Read what you wrote again .... and tell me how useful it is to you. Yup, I think I have gotten the babble down right. I am in a fog of my own. I cant see clearly....I want to get out...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And what is it that I should do?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am pretty close to being finished with this conversation.

What are YOU willing to do to have it continue?I am asking for your advice. What am *I* willing to do to have it continue? Listen to you! I am here to listen to you, absorb what you say to me and let it SINK in and act on it. so please do not go, please continue??? Thanks!

Pep

<small>[ December 19, 2004, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: MovingForward4me ]</small>

Mom -

Hi again. Really you don't have to stress about this at all. Just do what I did, and keep making excuses for WH, and believing his words.

It is the easiest way to get through all of this. Then one day you will wake up, and have no love for him at all. He will seem creepy to you, and you will be over him.

Then you can get on with having a nice life WITHOUT him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by believer:
<strong> Mom -

Hi again. Really you don't have to stress about this at all. Just do what I did, and keep making excuses for WH, and believing his words.

It is the easiest way to get through all of this. Then one day you will wake up, and have no love for him at all. He will seem creepy to you, and you will be over him.

Then you can get on with having a nice life WITHOUT him. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi believer <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I seem to already be doing what you did...making excuses for him, and believing him...and that is why I am at the place I am now...spinning my wheels...I believe him, I let him back in, he betrays me again...I haven't let him back in since Nov 21, which really blows his mind. He cant understand why I wont just let him come home if he is NOT seeing her! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I really dont FEEL like I have any feelings for him anymore, but Pep seems to think otherwise and I dont understand that one? I have feelings of sadness and I feel sorry for him..but love, I dont feel the love anymore.

Hi moving on 4 me--

I'm in the Dallas area and if you ever find your way up here--I'd love to get together with you, as one BS to another--and just go out and have some fun!

I'm tired of all of their drama---how bout you?

I've been hurt and rejected by him so much, and in the process found out that I don't NEED his sorry butt around anyway.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Take a trip to Dallas and let's go and have some FUN for once!

Mom - My WH is exactly like dad. I listened too long to his words. One day I just woke up with NO FEELINGS for him. If you are still questioning whether you have feelings for him or not, you do.
When your love for him ceases, you will know.