I have often been a conflict avoider and a generally-not particularly-assertive person in the past.

My avoidance of issues in my M (and other issues), because
a)I didn't want to rock the boat,
b)I'm fairly easy-going about many things and
c)I thought I could cope (I'm strong, its no big deal),
is in part what contributed to low (or borrowed, thank you Pep) self-esteem, which is in part what made me vulnerable to a brief A (ONS). I broke off contact with OM very soon after, but I kept it secret for 6 months.

I told H 6 months ago... and after he expressed much resentment, and maintained for several months that he was also going to have an A, to be 'even'... we are now both committed to our R and seem to be recovering.

I am now having to learn how to express my feelings, especially my negative feelings, much more freely. In the past I was the 'nice' one, occasionally bordering on the martyr... hmmm so 'nice' I had an A, yeah, I was really 'nice'....

So my question is... changing my decades-old behaviour patterns is not easy and I am having some difficulty judging which issues to express my feelings about, and which issues are just questions of different values.

For example, at the moment, I feel a little disrespected and taken for granted, because H will not go to MC or read any R/A books, and does not seem to me to be interested in putting much effort/time/money into resolving our R issues. He is open to conversations (even long ones) about our R, if I initiate the conversation.

I guess my question is how about how to express my feeling, and propose what I see as the solution (that he read books/go to C/take iniative to talk and think about our R) without infringing on his right to recover whichever way he chooses.

<small>[ December 20, 2004, 07:27 PM: Message edited by: smur ]</small>

<bump>

Also please feel free to chime in if you too are a conflict avoider, maybe I should retitle this 'CA anonymous'

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
For example, at the moment, I feel a little disrespected and taken for granted, because H will not go to MC or read any R/A books, and does not seem to me to be interested in putting much effort/time/money into resolving our R issues. He is open to conversations (even long ones) about our R, if I initiate the conversation.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're gonna think I've lost my freakin' mind.... what would make your H want to do the recovery work? I mean, what's in it for him???

Tell him sompin' like .... "Let's read this book together.... for 20 minutes every night ... naked."

Hey... if you want to attract the bull ... flaunt yer utters in da sunlight ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

DRAW HIM TOWARD YOU.... men are really simple creatures.... you could have him eating MB concepts outta the palm of your manicured hand ... with a little effort and planning <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Use your girl stuff... and he will come.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep

Wow, that one was from left field!!

But in some ways not too different to what I've been doing so far, just maybe a little more subtley <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Isn't it a tad manipulative, though? Or is manipulation ok in this case, since a better M benefits him as much as me?

Also, how does it fit with the objective of being totally honest and forthright about feelings?

Hmm, so many questions today...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Isn't it a tad manipulative, though? Or is manipulation ok in this case, since a better M benefits him as much as me?

Also, how does it fit with the objective of being totally honest and forthright about feelings?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The reason I said what I said to YOU ... is that you said your H is open to lengthy R talks, as long as you initiate.

What's wrong with a wife motivating her husband in ways that get his attention?

Plus... recovery is HARD work... and who says it can't be fun and sexy at the same time? Make recovery something he wants to do ... and then, honest sharing comes more easily when both are motivated,

PLEASE him ... then share something tender from your heart... "Honey. That was incredible. I have something I've been wanting to share with you ... is now a good time? Really!! Great!! I've been happier since you've been doing (whatever... start with what he is doing right) ... but I feel disappointed when this (whatever it is) happends. If you did this instead (give example of the desired corrective action), I would be so grateful."

My theory is ... if you become the sexy woman of his dreams ... he's crawl over shards of glass to please you...

works in our house... has for quite some time... and we are 9 years post D-day next week!

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ December 20, 2004, 08:50 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> ...My theory is ... if you become the sexy woman of his dreams ... he's crawl over shards of glass to please you...

works in our house... has for quite some time... and we are 9 years post D-day next week!

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is that where your stain glass window came from?!?!?!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Wow Pep, your 1st response made me blush! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

L.

I'm still stuck on that "men are really simple creatures" statement. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Georgia

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow Pep, your 1st response made me blush!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">O ...relax... it was only a hotflash !!!

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

smur,-- i am also a conflict avoider, and married to one as well. i think that causes a communication problem in marriages that lead to a lot of problems. at least that is what i think happened to us. it is easier to just "go along" or "keep quiet" but it is not the thing to do. i feel like that is the root cause for my wife and i drifting apart, and ultimately, to her having an A.i am not trying to justify her A though. i know that as hard as it has always been to speak my mind, or say what i am feeling, if we can work this out and save our M, i will not make the same mistake twice.i feel like if we can talk to each other about her having an A, anything else should be easy. my wife goes to MC with me, but we only talk if i start it. but then she will talk. i guess i feel your pain somewhat.......from a man's point of view, i like pep's idea <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . can't say how long the average man would concentrate on the book though. like pep said, we are simple creatures. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> that is a good thought on being manipulative, i have worried about that some myself. but like you said, if it helps the M, it is good for both of you.i will be interested to follow this and get some advice on how not to be so conflict- avoider....arjdad

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Georgia Guy:
<strong> I'm still stuck on that "men are really simple creatures" statement. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Georgia </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Men don't usually make you guess at what they would like.

Men don't chew and re-chew their emotions like a piece of old gum the way women do ... like gum stuck on the bed post...

men don't carry a grudge the way women do.

Women are much harder to please.

Say to a man ---> "You look nice."... and he will say "Thanks!"

Say to a woman ---> "You look nice."... she may say"Really? Don't you think my hair looks flat?"

Men have stable hormones. Women fluxuate monthly. nuff?

Pep

<small>[ December 20, 2004, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "Honey. That was incredible. I have something I've been wanting to share with you ... is now a good time? Really!! Great!! I've been happier since you've been doing (whatever... start with what he is doing right) ... but I feel disappointed when this (whatever it is) happens. If you did this instead (give example of the desired corrective action), I would be so grateful." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pep, thanks ....I think this is very true. Maybe its an issue of picking the right moment to share negative feelings and also being sure to meet ENs. Just what I needed to hear.

Arjdad - yes, its not easy to change when its been a kind of unquestioned, lifelong habit... it takes some kind of crisis to be really motivated to change. I believe you that, if you can talk about this A successfully, you can talk about anything!
Good luck to you too, and hope your W also 'gets' this!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Georgia Guy:
<strong> I'm still stuck on that "men are really simple creatures" statement. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Georgia </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Men don't usually make you guess at what they would like.

Men don't chew and re-chew their emotions like a piece of old gum the way women do ... like gum stuck on the bed post...

men don't carry a grudge the way women do.

Women are much harder to please.

Say to a man ---> "You look nice."... and he will say "Thanks!"

Say to a woman ---> "You look nice."... she may say"Really? Don't you think my hair looks flat?"

Men have stable hormones. Women fluxuate monthly. nuff?

Pep </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pep I'm glad that you are a woman because no man would have gotten away with saying those things and lived to tell about it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

TMCM

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Men don't usually make you guess at what they would like </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Except when they DONT talk to you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "Let's read this book together.... for 20 minutes every night ... naked."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Go for it smur, dont mind me just busy taking notes on peps instructions <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe its an issue of picking the right moment to share negative feelings and also being sure to meet ENs. Just what I needed to hear. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">EXACTLY !

If your man thinks that he is pleasing you overall ... more than likely, he will fall over himself to get more of that type of admiration if he is properly "motivated" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Men want to know that you appreciate his efforts... and once you start doing that (start small, and build from there) ... he will usually be willing to meet any reasonable requests (unless he's a fogged out alien, of course)

What would happen if you made a conscious effort to really show gratitude and overall admiration and attraction toward your H for 2 solid weeks.... what could go wrong? The only thing that could go wrong is if you do this with pre-conceived expectations which would disappoint you. Women are generally much more difficult to please. If we ask that a certain chore be done, we criticize if it is not done to our standards... and pretty soon, the man thinks "Why try? She never likes the way I do it anyway."

Pep

All of this is excellent... gosh darnit I wish I could get some practice in on this!

....someday <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

My ex sure is missing some good practicing... see what he could have had if he only could have chosen marriage and monagomy? Poor Sod!

Thread jack over.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by aussieswife:
"Men don't usually make you guess at what they would like" Except when they DONT talk to you </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Want to experience a man who enjoys talking to you?
Ask for his opinion ...
avoid asking him how he feels unless he volunteers to do that.
Men get criticized too often by women for their feelings... after the woman has asked him how he feels, she will say "How can you say that? Don't you know blah blah blah"

Hence, they become reluctant and wary to voice their feelings. They know it's a mine field.


Plus, men aren't always as feelings-conscious as women. Different wiring.

Pep

<small>[ December 21, 2004, 10:19 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Okay, I'm stealing the "let's read this book for 20 minutes naked" idea since I'm giving FWW a R book for Christmas. What a great country we live in!