WMWB,

I think that the true forgiveness you are seeking can't really be achieved, per se. I think you just kind of get there.... ya know?

But saying the words is a step towards getting there, and the rest will happen with time.

I think the concept/discussion of forgiveness without repentance is interesting. I think that forgiveness can help the healing of any/all of the parties involved, depending on how much that person wants it. For you, it may have helped you to heal.

I guess that's where the repentance part comes in. If the offending party truly wants healing/forgiveness then it would help them as well.

This is a question that I've been pondering a lot lately. The concept of what a true apology is, what true forgiveness is....

Good stuff.

Ethan

Forgiveness is a topic I have explored extensively, and indeed it was the very key to my being able to survive the end of my marriage while still loving my ex-wife, and to now have a life without the baggage of resentment, victimhood, and other assorted blue-meanies many of us seem to carry around forever.
While I admit I don't hold quite to the traditional "Christian" forgiveness, I nonetheless recognize that being able to forgive was the absolute key step in my recovery. To this day I am convinced that without this step, there would have been no possible way to save my marriage, even if it could have been saved.

If you'd like to explore the Forgiveness path I found and chose, I suggest starting with a series of articles about it at iloveulove.com, in particular the Radical Forgiveness section, and the very complete forgiveness materials kindly offered by Dr. Guy Pettitt, a long-time forgiveness "practitioner" from New Zealand.
You will find them here:
Forgiveness Resources

I might add that in my view true forgiveness has nothing to do with the "forgiven", but rather with the "forgiver". It does not require either the knowledge nor the repentance of the forgiven. We forgive to heal OURSELVES; not for anyone else.

<small>[ December 21, 2004, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graycloud:
<strong> Pep, I recalled you having some strong opinions on the subject in a thread a few months back. Do I have somebody else mistaken for you?

GC </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, probably melodylane .... I think she's who you are thinking of.

Pep

I forgave my ww but I have not yet forgiven the Om, I also want to cause him pain and see him suffer the way my children and I have over the course of these past six months. I told my ww that I forgave her but I would never truly forget. I did not need her to tell me sorry or that she feels bad or anything like that.

I found out one night while sitting next to her that I forgave her and with that came a responsibility to her.

I hope you find it in you to at least forgive your ww, as for the om! Do what I did.. I made up a dart board with a pic from the Pi and I have late night dart parties on his face.

I also went after OM and because of that almost got arrested, I did have to pay for the damage I did when I put my fist through his windshield trying to get to him.

And they say I have anger problems....Shhhh

God Bless and Forgive

I don't know, the "f" word seems a tricky one.

Let's say a person who has had an offense committed against her receives no remorse from the offender. She releases herself from anger and resentment, accepts what has happened as part of her past, and declares to herself that the offense will no longer rule her life.

Has she forgiven the offender?

Then let's say another person, a victim of a similar offense, is able to repair her relationship with the offender, who is remorseful and is willing to listen to the hurt person's pain.

I think the experiences are distinct, and the processes that occur in the mind of the hurt person are not the same.

GC

Gray,

I think a better example than the ones you used Gray would be to look at a Gray five years from now who has learned to forgive with his heart whole and his world happy, and then to look at Gray five years from now who has not learned to forgive and see the resentment which has manifested into every area of his life, and the heart which has turned bitter and ugly.

I think there lies the difference in finding a way to forgive and not being able to because the betrayor has not asked for it.

Spacecase has posted an excellent link. I like the way Furniture man looks at it also.

**edited to remove some info I decided was irrelevent to the topic**

<small>[ December 22, 2004, 05:38 AM: Message edited by: weaver ]</small>

This is a topic I have given some thoughts. I think we must here include pain in the picture.
You decide to forgive. But the wound has not yet healed. When the pain fills you again you respond to that pain with new anger.
The original forgiveness was real and valid. But we are imperfect beings. Due to the fresh pain we feel every day we have to forgive again and again and again. Until the wounds heal. Forgiveness in this case is not a once only decision. It is a long struggle. You will oscillate between anger and understanding/ empathy/ forgiveness for a long time. Don't beat yourself up about it!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You see, this isn't even for them... this is for me. I know I need to forgive and forget for me to ever even begin to heal from this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WMWB - IMHO you are confusing several things about forgiveness and forgetting.

First, despite the common argument that you forgive someone "for yourself," I follow God's example. Forgiveness follows confession and repentence. It does NOT precede it. The "requirement" is established by God. God does NOT forgive anyone's sins until they confess them, repent (turn 180 degrees from the sin), and seek His forgiveness. God then forgives BECAUSE of Christ, and puts the sin as far away as the "east is from the west." But God NEVER forgets anything. He chooses, because of His promise to believers in Christ, to never use that sin against you....to treat it as if it never existed....because Christ already took that sin upon himself and paid the "ultimate price" for that sin.

In my case, I have forgiven my wife. But her heathen OM is another story. Not going to happen unless God works a miracle in his life. However, the "vengenence" part of it I have turned over to God.

Your wife's comments about the OM's mother being sick strike a particularly sore nerve with me because that has been an ongoing source of problem for our recovery as well. A "caring nature" that has been taken advantage of by those who would seek to destroy your marriage.

Also, your comment about your role as a Christian has me wondering, since I have not read any of your other postings yet, if your wife is a Christian or not. Are you in an "unevenly yoked" marriage?

God bless.

Hello all… WOW! Some great responses, thanks for the insights.

Frank, I think you nailed it! This is exactly how I feel. When I forgave her, it was genuine… I really forgave her. But with new and added pain… that turned back to resent and anger. I agree, forgiveness has to be a constant decision. I have to wake up everyday and make the conscious effort to “be forgiving” to them. The hope is that a time will come when it is such a given that the habit of forgiving her daily fades away. That it is no longer front and center in my life… where I don’t even think about it. I want to be in a spot where I wake up and say to myself: “Gee…. I know I had to do something right away in the morning…. Had to forgive something…. What was it…. OH YEAH!, that.”

To answer a few other questions about my particular situation, my WW is still actively engaging in her A with OM. She hasn’t asked for forgiveness… I’m sure she doesn’t think she has done anything warranting her “needing” forgiveness. In her world, I am the bad guy… this is my fault… any part of her life that is uncomfortable is because of me, not her actions. I’m quit certain that in her world (where who knows what color the sky is) I need to be asking her for forgiveness… not the other way around. So, you see, it would be futile for me to wait and carry around this baggage until she comes around and asks for forgiveness. That won’t happen any time soon… and I don’t much feel like waiting. I want to get the show on the road and get recovering. The marriage is over, the paperwork is being drafted… we will be officially D by years end. Today is the first day of the rest of my life and I want to put this all behind me. It is a long road… no question. And I don’t intend to rush it, but I don’t intend on waiting for her either. In short, I don’t require her repentance for me to give her my forgiveness. And for the OM… well, I kinda like the idea of shoveling coals on his head. I wave to him and he flip’s me off and screams at me. I’m sure he doesn’t think he did anything wrong either. He is a cockroach… a flee… vermine that I don’t have the time for. God can deal with him. Of course, I need to find a way to be kind and “loving” (in a purely Christian way) to him… but the rest I will leave in God’s hands.

Also, as for my W’s faith… well I have great sorrow for that. She has completely abandon it altogether. The entire time I have known her, she has been a church going woman. Maybe not EVERY Sunday… but a lot of them. She worked for our church… under our pastor. She set up and ran the church nursery. She volunteered on several occasions. In short, she was involved in the congregation. Then, we moved… shortly there after she began this A… and now won’t even LET our kids say prayers at her house. I capitalize "let" because it isn’t even as though she won’t say them with the kids… she won’t LET them say prayers at all. My 5 year old tells me that “Mommy just yells at me to be quiet and go to sleep…” Now obviously, he is 5 and who knows the “whole” story… but I do know the she won’t let me take the kids to Sunday school on her Sundays and she has stopped going to church altogether. In fact she told me that her grandmothers funeral (about 6 weeks ago) was the first time in almost 2 years she stepped foot in a church.

I have heard it said… that if you are a person of faith, and you commit adultery, one of two things will happen. Either 1) you will repent and give up the sinful behavior and start doing what is right in the eyes of the Lord. OR 2) you will abandon your faith altogether and choose to immerse yourself in the sinful lifestyle you have set forth in. Because you can’t have both… you have to choose one or the other. It sure appears to me that she has chosen the later. Hence, I pray for mercy on her soul.

Hebrews 6:4-6 says “ It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

Now, far be it from me to state with any certainty what my W has in store for her… but this woman was baptized, raised, and confirmed in the Lutheran Church. She was (from what I understand) re-baptized during college. She was not a Bible-thumping Christian… but she was a believer. I would have to say… in my opinion… based on what I have seen… she has been enlightened, has tasted the heavenly gift...and has fallen away. Sooooo, this verse leaves me with remorse for her soul. And I pray for her salvation.

So, in short… although I don’t believe we were unevenly yoked during the marriage… we most certainly are now.

<small>[ December 22, 2004, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: Want My Wife Back ]</small>

WMWB - I may have to find some time to read up on your situation. From what you just posted, there are immense similarities between your WW and my wife.

The issue you raise with your Scripture quotation is the issue of "eternal security." I won't go there now because it's too involved and really isn't germaine to the issue at hand, ending the affair and restablishing a walk with Christ.

I KNOW from experience what you are going through and I know how hard it is.

God bless and comfort you and make His presence known to you during this time of tribulation.

(((((WMWB)))))

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ForeverHers:
<strong> God bless and comfort you and make His presence known to you during this time of tribulation.

(((((WMWB))))) </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you, that means alot.