Hope you don't mind, Bear, but I just noticed you responded to my post about gifts in KMEJ's thread. In answering your question, I found it to be a theraputic exercise for me, and as it turns out, it is long!

Has my H's heart been in the wrong place, or is he just a poor gift-giver? Both, actually.

His parents didn't exchange gifts, so he didn't have much frame of reference, for starters. But anyone can learn, right?? You would think so!

Really, the gift-giving thing was just one of many symptoms of a bad situation (20 years worth!). He always loved me and still does, more than ever, I think. But, whereas I treasured him and thought of him constantly and would do anything to honor him, he simply did not think of me in the same way. He rarely complimented my appearance or dress or any accomplishment.

When I had pain for about 5 years, he wouldn't rub my aching neck and shoulders because he hates the feel of lotion between his fingers. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I ended up having surgery for a herniated disk.

During my pregnancies, I wanted him to touch my stomach to feel the babies move, but he paid little attention to me. I wanted him to walk with me in the evenings, but he was too tired. At a time when I craved his attention and validation, he couldn't give it. I felt I was being too needy.

I could give you about a million examples; these are but a few. I've tried EVERYTHING with him, but I'm simply worn out from trying and being disappointed.

Bottom line: he never had the slightest interest in what my needs were. Thinking ahead about a gift for me would NOT occur to him; spending time thinking about a special gift for me (one that would show that he treasured me)would not happen, for sure!

I wish he had thought about pleasing me enough to be putting away $20 bucks here and there to buy me a mother's ring, something that I've wanted for 9 years.

I'll end up buying it myself some day, I'm sure. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Before we married, I always thought he was just not good at communicating his feelings. He is VERY quiet. I thought I could teach him. I know, I know. . .

After a few years, however, I figured out that he simply didn't love me the same as I loved him, but I allowed him to convince me that I was imagining things (crazy me!). It went so far as to completely destroy my self-esteem; I ended up on the highest allowed dosage of AD's known to man. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> My personality has changed, as have my daily habits and my perspective on life. Truly, I don't care if I live or die.

The irony of our relationship is that he has experienced a true life change recently. He's become a Christian and has learned a great deal, especially has come to want to accept his responsibilities to his wife and children. That's the reason he "came clean" on his past, some 14 years after the fact. He's regretful and has worked very hard to be supportive. Except he doesn't want to go to counseling; he thinks we can "do this" on our own. And, after 4 months since D-day, he's beginning to think he's suffered enough for what he has done. He'd like me to be over it by now, really. He's dealt with it, received God's forgiveness, and asked for mine. Time to move on.

Wouldn't it be great if I could be the same person I was when we first married? This would be as close to perfect a marriage as a person could get. But I don't seem to be able to travel back in time like that. Pity.

My friends tell me what a wonderful man I'm married to. He's so nice to me! He agrees to whatever I ask! They wish their husbands were as wonderful. They don't know my story, where I've been or where I am now. They don't know what it's like at all in my house.

I'm here because of my children, who love their mother and their father, and who would be devastated by a D. As long as I can bear it, I will stay here.

My efforts now will be in IC, focusing on recovering my self-esteem and growing as a woman. I'd like to get to a point where I have hope again and look forward to life.

Thanks for letting me "think out loud" here.
PM

**I'm here because of my children, who love their mother and their father, and who would be devastated by a D. As long as I can bear it, I will stay here.**

That sums up my sitch in a nutshell. I was a little like your H. Notice I said a little and was. I loved my W, but didn't show it well. My father didn't show much emotion. That is how I grew up. I am not good at taking women's hints, or reading between the lines.

Sounds like you can see your H is trying. You said it, if you could be that person you used to be w/your new H you would be the perfect couple. Well, you know the goal. There is an underlying reason why H doesn't want MC. I wonder what it is.

Thanks for the response, Bear. I'm not sure what his underlying reason might be -- but you're probably right that there is one. I imagine I don't know all of the truth yet, though he says I do. I'll never believe another word out of his mouth.

I've dragged him to MC before. He participated very minimally; said very little. In hindsight, I realize he sat there through numerous counseling sessions, watching me agonize over what could be wrong with us/me. All along, he knew.

He says he will go to MC if I insist, but it will be a cold day you-know-where when I subject myself to that waste of time again.

I'm concentrating on ME now.
PM

You are so right. MC does absolutely no good if one party doesn't want to be there or openly commit. I poured my freaking heart out in MC, my WW cried, and then lied her a** off to me and the MC. MC was shocked that WW would lie. I really started to wonder about the quality of our MC at that point. Of course WW was going to lie, that is what she does. Too late now, WW still sees MC for IC, and likes her now. So how do I get this switched now?

Point is, you are so right. Unless he wants to be there, why waste your time and put yourself through he!!.

I also want to add that your H may not be holding more out. You know MC isn't going to make that come out, if there is anything more. He may feel very uncomfortable with having a third party hear this. he may be too proud. He may think, it didn't work last time, why waste our time. Who knows? I just don't think that he is scared that the intense scrutiny is going to cause a possible skeleton to slip.

<small>[ December 22, 2004, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: Bear04 ]</small>

No, I imagine he just doesn't want to go to counseling. It costs money, and it's not fun, you know. It's absolute agony for him to try to talk.

He's really hoping I'll just get over it.

wow papermom- asides the gift thing, we could be married to the EXACT same man. However I will tell you what I am trying to get through to myself. If there is nothing more in it for you then your kids, it is not worth staying, and the example you are setting is that true happiness should not be found. I realize that you love your H- however if you do not sit down and explain your feelings to him things will not change. Most men can not read minds, nor do they even attempt it. Once you have explained your feelings, and then nothing still changes- that should tell you something.

Easier said then done believe me I do realize.

KMEJ,
He knows; I'm an open book; I communicate.
The way I have it figured is that, by looking after myself, I'll get "better" and my marriage will improve as a result. Or, maybe I'll get better and decide it would be best for me to end the M.
For now, I do know it's better to stay in the M.
PM

only you know what is best for you. Stay strong. Live for yourself. Take care of yourself.