Ok, for those of you unfamiliar with my situation here is the cliff notes version.

WW is having at least an EA and very possibly a PA.

Since the start I have told her I wanted no contact with OM, total honesty and back her words up with her actions.

I filed for D on 12-2-04 but was still willing to work on the M

On 12-18-04 I had enough, I woke up and accepted the fact that my M was going to end in D and feel okay with that. Not happy, but acceptance. I am no longer putting any energy into saving this M, my energy will go toward getting my "new" life started.

WW and I had a talk earlier this evening. I told her what I need from her is the whole truth about her relationship with OM. If she does that I could probably get myself to work on the M again. At the start when I got info I would ask the WW about it, she would deny it and then I would show her my proof and how I knew. She would then admit to it and we would continue doing the same.

Lately I have gained info and not told the WW about it. Instead I would question around the subject to see if she would say anything and of course she wouldn't. Well tonight I told he I knew a few things that I hadn't told her about and told her if she sat down and gave me the rundown I would know if she were honest because these things would be in there. I could then start to believe that she is making a sincere effort to save this M like she says she wants to. Well, she says that that is controlling of me and she won't do it.

My question is this. How do you fell about my tactic? Is it wrong? I don't think you will sway me to tell her the info I have and how I obtained it, but I would still like your opinions. I just want the truth from her for a change. I feel this is the only way to know she is being truthfull. I guess if she doesn't want to do that then she doesn't really want to save this M anyway and I am in a place of acceptance.

I bet she is going to call OM tonight after I go to work, but for the first time - I don't really care.

Thanks for listening

MIF

Hmmm. Well, you have to make it safe for her to tell you things. I don't know if you are going about it the right way or not.

Would she consider reading or posting here?

MIF

you and I are in the same boat for the same timeframe.

WS's still in contact with OP

So if she admits contact and related info where does that get you. Nowhere. Its like putting a child in a candy store coming back in 5 mins what do you think has happened. The only way that the child would not eat the candy is if it was sick of eating it already. Or the candy on the other side started to look better.

So how do we make ourselves look better we do Plan A> You know I am just about getting this principal at last.

Implimenting it is hard though because all I seem to want is instant results but that is not going to happen I now Know that.

So if we want our M back we work on ourselves try and forget S and make your life better.

listen to the exp MB's I am just a novice but just wanted to give you my support

I wish I could help but I feel in the same boat you are. Ready to file for D, acceptance of the situation and not wanting to work anymore on M. You are not alone. Hope you find help here like I did. Good luck.

Hello:

I just want to let you know that I was on the same situation like you before, and I thought when I find out everything about the A is a release for me. I didn't know that I am still going to painful situation every time I think of it. Didn't help me forget things, but thats up to you...

I approach my wife with very calm attitude no yelling or madness at all even though I know that the affair is going on. First you need to be calm and try to show it to her that you are not going to be crazy. I told my WS that if she doesn’t tell me the truth I can dig, dig, dig, and it’s going to be ugly if I do that and finds out that way. I just want to know now before its going to be ugly. I told her just be honest because someday I will meet this person and at least I don’t have any hate on him or her. Someday I will come around weather the marriage is saved or not I will find out the truth anyway.


My First Post on MB
My Second Post on MB
My Third post on MB

People on MB'ers are all good in advice, Excellent Help always here....

Motto: Don’t Lie, If you lie, They will find out anyway….

Just be calm and try not to be carried away or controlled by anger, it’s really hard to deal with WS, Remember they will lie to death, but keep trying to be nice and that’s the only way you can get your answer.

<small>[ December 22, 2004, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: HATE LOVE ]</small>

I think police call that "hold back evidence". They never release the whole story...that way they know if a confession is legit and it is far more damning when entered into court.

Clever.

You said you demand honesty to even consider working on the marriage. Sounds fair to me.

You let her know that you will check her story against the facts you know to determine if she is being honest now. What....you don't trust her?? I wonder why.

She broke the trust contract; she does not get to write the next one. She must go beyond being honest...she must now prove honesty. Makes sense to me.

You're not controlling her; you just told her the minimum you require to rebuild a marriage. She doesn't have to play. Nor do you have to give her another chance. The ball’s in her court.

Speaking of balls...you obviously got some...good on ya.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Binder:
<strong> I think police call that "hold back evidence". They never release the whole story...that way they know if a confession is legit and it is far more damning when entered into court.

Clever.

You said you demand honesty to even consider working on the marriage. Sounds fair to me.

You let her know that you will check her story against the facts you know to determine if she is being honest now. What....you don't trust her?? I wonder why.

She broke the trust contract; she does not get to write the next one. She must go beyond being honest...she must now prove honesty. Makes sense to me.

You're not controlling her; you just told her the minimum you require to rebuild a marriage. She doesn't have to play. Nor do you have to give her another chance. The ball’s in her court.

Speaking of balls...you obviously got some...good on ya. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">binder, thankyou. That is exactly my point! I am witholding evidence to ensure she is telling the truth. I am not willing to work on this M any longer if she can not stop with the lies. I don't know what made me lose my desire to work on the M more, the constant lies or the continued contact.

She asked me what she gets out of the deal. I told her I would be willing to work on the M again. I am still going to go to counselling and work out those issues of mine that my WW told me she didn't like. I figure either she can benefit from it and we keep our family together or someone else will benefit from it down the road.

MIF


ps: I am a police officer too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ December 22, 2004, 08:21 PM: Message edited by: MIF? ]</small>

Hello,

She believes telling you the truth to be controlling behavior on your part? Oh please...
What does she get out of it by telling you the truth? Oh please.....

She is not serious. If you do not have honesty in your relationship and if she continues to refuse to break off contact with the OM then you are simply wasting your time. If the roles were reversed, I think she would be saying the same things as you are saying.

You judge people by their actions and not by their words. Her actions speak volumes. How can you remain in a relationship when your spouse continuously lies to you and only admits the truth when confronted with the proof? Who wants to live a life like that? These are her choices and these will be her consequences. I wish you luck.

Bryanp,

Again, that is how I feel. I refuse to work on this M if she can't be honest.

MIF

I refuse to work on this M if she can't be honest.

well that's a problem isnt' it....
the bigger picture is her need to find value in truth..
and your need to be married to someone who is truthful...

her question to you...
was poignant...
She asked me what she gets out of the deal.

the answer she needs..
the hope she needs
the knowledge that you believe in her is the bigger picture...
you answered with this...

I told her I would be willing to work on the M again.

the answer may be more like this...

you my dear wife...will get to be once again the honest person I married...

you will no longer feel shame for speaking untruth..

you will no longer spend anxious minutes fretting about covering your tracks...

you will once again be re-united with your own belief and value of honesty...because you will be that person in action....

Where ever you end up...to be well in this universe...
you must be a truthful person....
otherwise you are choosing a life that will haunt you no matter where you go....

and you my wife whom I value....will be free of this burdon you act on...the lies......


other wise you two can stay locked in this verbal power-struggle...

you darn well better be ready to marriage build with someone who lies...
because she has lost her way....
and that's WHO she is now...

the question is the battle worth assisting her in finding her way home again....

the question is do YOU believe in people's ability to change...
and answer carefully as you learn to change... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

her "you are controlling me statement"..is straight from the mouth of someone backed in to a corner...

ARK

<small>[ December 22, 2004, 09:02 PM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]</small>

MIF,

I think the question you are asking is if you s/b truthful with all the info you are getting? The real question s/b truthful to whom? Ws or your W?

Very different. If it were your W, you would be working on the radical honesty principal (RH) but if you are dealing with the WS, that w/b out the window.

So the answer?

Wife = radical honesty - partnered agreement

WS: Deal with on a need to know basis. Realize she will use whatever she can against you.

BS: Realize the need t/b flexible. Learn to work with what you have and control only what you can on your side. Be content with that for the moment but do no give up your family's values. You, your family and your home are sacred. Let no one desecrate it.

As for gathering info. Gather and use it wisely. NOT emotionally or as a threat but wisely. Use it to collect proof and move forward as if you have the worst case scenario of the WS is the primary character. When your wife's character shows up, you w/b in a better position to switch to a recovery mode. Right now you are in a protection mode for you and your family. A hit can come at any time.

Another thing, don't be mad at the sources giving you the info. Learn to differentiate between real truth and mixed truths. Be flexible in your approach but solid in your goal. Your goal s/b family preservation without the WS or with your W. If your W never comes back then you preserve without the WS.

JMHO,
L.

ark^^, I wish I spoke as eloquently as you. I can not think of those types of things to say. Thanks for the reply.

orchid, thanks for the reply. It makes a lot of sense to me.

MIF

MIF,

ARK and ORCHID leave little for me to add. I too wish I had the eloquence of ARK. I want to print and save all of her posts.

You sound like you're on the right track...remember though, investigative skills are a great benefit... so are interrogation skills...but try to be a husband too. Don't always react with logic; don't always assume every affectionate overture has a hidden motive.

<small>[ December 22, 2004, 11:52 PM: Message edited by: Binder ]</small>

Binder,

That is one thing I have to work on. I am suspicious of everything. She tells me I often treat her like a suspect and I can see I do have a tendency to do just that.

MIF

MIF - I think you're screwing up big time.

Why did you file for divorce?

Do you really want one?

If yes, stop reading this reply and move smartly towards your goal. You will regret it.


What are you looking at? OK, if you're reading this, you're at least unsure about your divorce decision, right? Caught ya.

If you're unsure, why are you continuing on a path with a difinitive outcome?

Let me guess - you want to cover your bases and go down two paths at once? Hope for your marriage, but have the divorce option in your hip pocket? Contingency planning? Playing both sides of the fence?

Hmmmmmmmm. Sound familiar?

About the "evidence" dilemma. I think you have to stop being a police officer and start being a betrayed husband knowledgable of how to treat aliens. Men In Black, not Cop In Blue. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You know stuff about her that she doesn't know you know. Yep, you're right on all fronts and she's wrong. You can PROVE her wrong over and over and over. You've got the goods on her WAY beyond a reasonable doubt. Slam dunk in court. You can "win," you can be right.

I think winning (being right) is more important to you than your family. Maybe I'm wrong. Only you can tell us.

So, you have successfully trapped your WS. She is a cornered animal. What do cornered animals do? Before answering, remember, she's a alien - not your wife.

Bottom line, she is not ready for honesty. She won't be ready for honesty until she feels safe being honest. You demanding honesty is fair, is right, and is not controlling - for a non-alien.

You're trying to push a rope, reason with a drunk. Can't be done.

Every passing moment is an opportunity for a complete turnaround. You can decide this moment to stop the divorce.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by worthatry:
<strong> MIF - I think you're screwing up big time.

Why did you file for divorce?

Do you really want one?

If yes, stop reading this reply and move smartly towards your goal. You will regret it.


What are you looking at? OK, if you're reading this, you're at least unsure about your divorce decision, right? Caught ya.

If you're unsure, why are you continuing on a path with a difinitive outcome?

Let me guess - you want to cover your bases and go down two paths at once? Hope for your marriage, but have the divorce option in your hip pocket? Contingency planning? Playing both sides of the fence?

Hmmmmmmmm. Sound familiar?

About the "evidence" dilemma. I think you have to stop being a police officer and start being a betrayed husband knowledgable of how to treat aliens. Men In Black, not Cop In Blue. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You know stuff about her that she doesn't know you know. Yep, you're right on all fronts and she's wrong. You can PROVE her wrong over and over and over. You've got the goods on her WAY beyond a reasonable doubt. Slam dunk in court. You can "win," you can be right.

I think winning (being right) is more important to you than your family. Maybe I'm wrong. Only you can tell us.

So, you have successfully trapped your WS. She is a cornered animal. What do cornered animals do? Before answering, remember, she's a alien - not your wife.

Bottom line, she is not ready for honesty. She won't be ready for honesty until she feels safe being honest. You demanding honesty is fair, is right, and is not controlling - for a non-alien.

You're trying to push a rope, reason with a drunk. Can't be done.

Every passing moment is an opportunity for a complete turnaround. You can decide this moment to stop the divorce. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WAT,
You make a few valid points. I would like to touch on something you posted in your BS stench thread
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by WAT
Yep, I contributed a lot to the poor state of my marriage before my wife's non-affair. ("Non" affair because it wasn't an affair, you understand. She married the guy she wasn't having an affair with 5 months after our divorce.)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is what my WW is doing. Denying an affair. She keeps telling me it's not about him, she doesn't have any feelings for him, she will not be dating him once we are divorced etc., etc., etc. The information I have is to the contrary. I can't live with a woman who will deny what is really happening. I refuse to call off the divorce because she "says" she wants to keep our family together and save this marriage. She has "said" a lot of things lately and not meant a damn one of them! She can "say" what she wants, but her actions are the only thing that will convince me she means what she says. I have told her that she could show she means what she says by being honest with me. If she tells me truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help her God <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> The info that I have *should* be in there somewhere. If she leaves out some of it I will then question her in those areas and see if she admits without having to be interrogated. I don't like interrogating my WW but she is acting just like a suspect in a crime. Most criminals won't confess to their wrongs until you show them you have proof. Once they see the video tape, the evidence then they feel the need to be truthful. My WW doens't like being treated like a suspect, well if she would stop acting like one then it would be easier to not treat her like one.

You ask if I really want a divorce. I do, at least from this alien that has taken my wife from me. If my wife could kick the alien WW from her system I would be willing to work on our M again. I just don't see that happening.

She despises the fact that I post here. What? I can't post here on an anonymous forum where there is no chance of becoming romantically involved with one of the forum members, but it is okay for her to tell her OM everything that goes on? What? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

MIF?

MIF, as I read your posts, I heard your agony and felt it with you.

I still don't really know whether or not my own M will survive. I don't think I'll be able to make that decision for a long time. I certainly don't think I'll make it until I can trust H. I can't do it if I'm feeling the need for game-playing or manipulation of any kind. There is no trust in that at all.

With that said, may I kindly suggest that it seems to me that's where you are: wanting to play a game to see whether or not you can trust her. My suspicion is that, even if she "passes" this test and "wins" this game, you'll have little more trust for her than you did before you began it. What will be accomplished? She will have stepped out in truth, with hopes that you'll trust her, but she will be let down because you still won't trust her, really.

Does this make any sense? If not, disregard and please excuse my rambling.
PM

I understand everything you're saying. I really do.

You are trying to force the issues. You can't - unless the issue you're trying to force is divorce.

You cannot make her tell the truth nor admit she's having an affair. (My XW denies she had an affair to this day.) You cannot make her do anything.

If you want to try to save your marriage you have to change your tactics. You cannot treat her like a criminal and force an admission. You cannot force her back from the Mothership. You have to lure her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She keeps telling me it's not about him, she doesn't have any feelings for him, she will not be dating him once we are divorced etc., etc., etc. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She's probably right (except for the dating part after your divorce).

It's NOT about him!!!

It's about YOU!!!!

What I mean is that YOUR actions should be all about you!! Not about OM, not about making her tell the truth, not about making her admit an affair. Focus on making yourself the best husband you can be while she's off beaming back and forth to the Mothership. By trying to directly influence her actions, you're doing more harm than good.

According to Frank Pittman, "Private Lies," in most cases of garden variety affairs, the BS does the best thing by staying out of the way and finding something to occupy themselves while the affair runs its course.

While your divorce proceeds, give it a try. Better yet, stop the divorce and give it a try. You can always re-divorce later - with no regrets.

WAT

MIF?,

Gotta pipe in here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You ask if I really want a divorce. I do, at least from this alien that has taken my wife from me. If my wife could kick the alien WW from her system I would be willing to work on our M again. I just don't see that happening.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, you want to wrap this up and be done; either s**t or get off the pot. Is that it? But it seems to me that you might be trying to move things along here too quickly and perhaps using the D word as a stick to beat her about the ears to try and knock some sense into her. True?

papermom,
Makes perfect sense.

WAT,

I understand and tried for 3 months to lure her back from the mothership. It didn't work and I have reached the end of my rope. I can't take it any longer and have since decided to go full speed ahead with the D. I still had one last ditch effort that if she could come clean and start being honest, I could then convince myself to start working on saving this M again. As it stands right now, I do not want to waste any energy working on a M that only I seem to *really* want. I will focus my energy on my *new* future.

MIF?