Greetings Everyone,

I had been taking a little break from here to deal with a lot of things in my life right now. I was at a point in the emotional rollercoaster where I felt resentment and also felt like I was in the direction of moving on.

Well yesterday, I found out new information about my WW that has me feeling quite ill. I found out that for sure, she was having sex with OM while I was still having SF with her and living with her. I had figured that had been the case, but to have the information confirmed by her sister (not the one having a A herself) has really brought me down again. Plus, her sister said she wasn't sure, but that there may have been more men.

She then prededed to tell me many things my WW has been saying, which if true...would mean that everything has been a lie...7 years of lies. I was hoping that the first half of the marriage was good and true...because it felt like it to me. But it was all probably lies, right from the beginning. I can't stand it.

And then she tells me what my WW said she likes about OM. Now this is a little personal. She claims that WW said she likes OM because he is more endowed, and skilled with oral SF. That isn't what bothers me. I am average size, and I am fine with that. I know that there are many men larger and smaller, so I'm quite happy with being average. But...she always told me that she prefers average size, because of the way she is "built", being to large hurts (she was with someone a while before I met her that is the basis for that claim). Also, I was willing to do anything/change anything as far as SF goes...I was there to please my W. But she always said she was satisfied. Well I guess she wasn't, or OM was just better than me. So its not the size that matters to me...its the lies, and the fact that OM can please my WW better than I could. So now I'll be worrying about that if and when I enter into a new R.

Then SIL tells me that WW just doesn't like me. Well, I half figured that, but my WW is always saying things like "I don't hate you, I just don't love you anymore." Or "Don't blame yourself for any of this, its not you, its me". "Dimmu, I would love to talk to you about regular things, but you want to talk about how/when/why things happened and are the way they are, and I just don't talk about that (I don't know about anyone else, but if I don't like someone, I don't want to talk to them, even about "regular" things). Then there was the Yahoo IM chat she initiated with me the other day: "WW: hey, how's it goin' ? Just thought I would chat for a few while I have some time."

SIL also assumes that WW slept with/is sleeping with another roommate of WW's. No proof, she just assumes. I pretty much am leaving the marriage. Its just not worth it. Everything is just to much to bear. Sometimes I think that this is all a test, and maybe God wants me to save the marriage and learn to forgive REGARDLESS of what WW makes me endure. Well, if thats the case, then I have failed. WW is the chaff, and I am casting her off. I still feel residual feelings for her deep down, which makes me angry. And I am sure that the rollercoaster will bring me back to feeling the way I did when I made over half of my posts on here.

So WW will be arriving here in tomorrow evening, and will be spending the night. It will be just me, the kids, and her. The last conversation we had was about xmas, and the kids, and things like that. It was almost like we never split up, and that everything was fine. But I know its not...I found out this new, sickening information, had some questions answered, and as a result I have new ones. Everyone tells me that I don't need to know how many times she cheated, whether or not she ever really loved me, whether or not the last 7 years were 100% lies or not...they don't think I need closure. They think I can walk away, and that all of these things won't consume me from within.

So, xmas will be interesting for sure. I don't know what to do or say. I don't have custody established yet, but I want to scream for a divorce. Thats what I want for xmas. A divorce, and to never see or speak with my WW ever again. I wish she would just move far, far, away. I have a feeling that once the kids go to bed tomorrow night, WW and I will have a LB marathon, pretend things are ok in the morning, then she will leave, and not see the kids for another 2-4 weeks.

Isn't life is grand?

Dimmu

<small>[ December 25, 2004, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: Cherished ]</small>

Hey Dimmu,

What can I say, except that I'm really Feeling for ya here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

As far as what you wrote here:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">From Dimmu:
......had some questions answered, and as a result I have new ones. Everyone tells me that I don't need to know how many times she cheated, whether or not she ever really loved me, whether or not the last 7 years were 100% lies or not...they don't think I need closure. They think I can walk away, and that all of these things won't consume me from within.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't know exactly who "everyone" is....but just for myself ......I Would Want (need) to know.

I don't know if YOU need it, but I would have been "consumed" for years always "thinking" about these types of things.
(You know ? ..."obsessing" about questions that by yourself you'll NEVER get answers too).

Yes, unfortunately knowing the facts does hurt (and a lot).....but For me, at least once I "know" that I know.....I can PROCESS and find a way to Deal with the information.

It lets you get that endless "loop" out of your head.

Just wanted to let you know that you AREN'T the ONLY one too Feel this way.

And NO, its Not as simple as someone telling you to just "stop thinking about it" or let it go and move on.

Cause if it was....you'd have already done it.

I feel very fortunate that my W was willing (eventually!!) to give me the information that I required to Save/Heal myself.

As a result I am now Strong enough to leave this M (should it come to that)...and not be the Shell of the man I would have other wise been (as I know I would have been soooo bitter as well as Lost).

Truly Wishing for some positive turns for you in the new year.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

And I've got a WH coming for Christmas. Good luck! A lot of us are in the same leaky boat.

Cherished,

I am starting to realize that my WW and most of her family are rather abnormal. I know that for most women, sex is more emotional than physical. I believe that for my WW, its both. Her older sister (not SIL giving me info) is a nymphomaniac.

As far as misleading information...I'm not sure why my SIL would do that. I cannot see how she would gain anything at all by feeding me false information...especially false information that casts her sister in negative light. She has told me she doesn't agree with what her two sister's are doing, but that they still are her sisters, so she won't tell me everything. I did tell her that it was pretty much over between WW and I, and she said "Good! I hope so! About time!".

Maybe SIL just likes the drama. SIL and FIL were chuckling here and there when certain information was being talked about. They told me the "size and oral thing" is sort of a private joke now when they talk about my WW, because WW told them thats why she likes OM. Also, a short time before my WW abandoned my children and I, we were at a party at older SIL's(she's having A too) house. WW and older SIL were having a discussion about penises and penis size. They were also talking about how they just don't understand thier H's problems with thier W's wanting to leave. They were saying things like "What is it about us that they claim that they love us?" They act like what they are doing is normal and to be expected. Like baseball and apple pie.

At this point, it is hard to say if the info is misleading or not. I guess I'll know, after the upcoming LB session between my WW and I, tomorrow night.

Dimmu

top rope-

Its terrible that you and so many others are experiencing this kind of crap. It is nice though, to see someone agreeing with me on the need for that information for closure. And not knowing does feel like a loop. I think it adds to the emotional rollercoaster experience.

I need to save/heal myself as well. I have always been a tad dark, but not like this. My faith has been compromised, feelings of wrath burn in me, I imagine myself hurting OM badly, and sowing the seeds of dissent amongts my WW's family members, among other things. I truly need to save and heal myself.

HurtingCarol-

I wish you the best as well, when dealing with your WH this xmas. I hope things will be more "friendly" for you, than I think they will be for my WW and I tomorrow...

Part of me wants to ignore WW the whole time, and not even look at her. I would smile, take pictures of the kids opening thier presents, laugh with them, even take pictures of WW with the kids...just no interact with WW at all. Not likely to happen though...not with how bad my questions are nagging at me.

Dimmu

Dimmu, if this means anything, just want you to know that fog talk is not just spoken exclusively to the BS. It gets spoken to everyone the WS speaks with. So that crap she was telling your SIL, just that, crap.

That said, instead of an LB marathon on Xmas, why not just enjoy the evening for what it is...maybe the last good time you have with your WW. It sounds like D is for certain. So, just enjoy the evening. Whatever she says doesn't affect you because you have already made up your mind. Why let her ruin yet another joyous time?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sometimes I think that this is all a test, and maybe God wants me to save the marriage and learn to forgive REGARDLESS of what WW makes me endure. Well, if thats the case, then I have failed. WW is the chaff, and I am casting her off.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Forgiveness and reconciliation are two totally different things.

Forgiveness:

1. To excuse for a fault or an offense; pardon.
2. To renounce anger or resentment against.
3. To absolve from payment of (a debt, for example).

Reconciliation:

1. To reestablish a close relationship between.
2. To settle or resolve.
3. To bring (oneself) to accept.

I forgave my XWW after our divorce and long before she came out of therapy a much emotionally healthy woman and expressed her remorse for her cruel and wanton behavior during our marriage, BUT that did not meant I was willing to reconcile with her.

Forgiveness is ,an always shall be, for the benefit of the forgiver, not the forgiven.

TMCM

Bear04,

I'm not sure what is fog, and what isn't. It turns out that WW exists most of her R with an A. I also know that if WW finds out that SIL told me anything WW has said, WW gets very angry with her. I truly hope that the information is all crap, but its unrealistic that it is. I guess I'll find out, one way or the other.

I don't think that I'll be able to keep up the facade of enjoying the holidays, once the kids are in bed. I won't truly know how I'll react, until she gets here. I am finding that with acceptance, it is easier to LB, or say things that mught p1ss WW off...because a D is inevitable, there is no point in kissing her @ss anymore.

I'll try to keep it as civil as possible, but knowing WW...she'll get very irritable, then I'll get angry, then we'll both go to bed angry. Then we'll pretend everything is ok in the morning. If she would just tell me everything, life would be so much easier.

Dimmu

My point is your life and your future are going to be a lot easier once you get out from under WW's control. Her actions/inactions have an effect on you, you respond negatively. Once there is no response (indifference) then you are truly your own person. Then you can move on in peace. Plus, WW will see that change and know that she lost you.

TMCM-

I would have replied to your post sooner, but I left my PC for a bit, and just noticed your post. With forgiveness and reconciliation...I guess at this point in time, I am unwilling to do both. She hasn't ask for nor does she deserve, my forgiveness. I believe that a person should want forgiveness, in order to recieve it. I could forgive her if she stopped doing what she is doing, and asked for it. But if I forgive her now, then she basically has my blessing to continue on with what she is doing. I hope to forgive her someday, but now just isn't the time.

I don't believe she'll ever change, even with therapy (not as long as she is around her family). If she does, I truly believe that I'll be in a similar situation as you, TCMC. I may not have met a women that I can have serious R with by that time, but I'll probbaly be, as I am today, unwilling to reconcile. I read some of your older posts, and TCMC...its scary how similar your ex is to mine.

Bear04-

It felt like I had achieved true indifference towards my WW. That is, until I recieved the extra information. But, I at least got a taste of what it will be like, when I feel that way all of the time. I yearn for it now. The mental/emotional/physical pain, the tears I have shed...it all makes me sick that I had to experience those things, when my WW doesn't deserve it. Indifference would be paradise, compared to what I have been feeling. I know that indifference is something that many people should try to achieve, if thier M isn't salvagable. It just sucks that anyone should have to go through any of this kind of crap.

All I can hope is that I get the information I feel that I require, so I can heal from it. Achieve total indifference (better than hatred, which I admit I feel from time to time), and hopefully, one day, feel good about getting up in the morning. I feel that my WW has control, because I am still in the dark about so many things. Other than that, I am slowly gaining control over the situation. Thats why I have been able to come to the decision to divorce. Hopefully I can eventually shed all of the bitterness and negative feelings that I have aquired, and become the Dimmu that my relatives and friends miss.

Dimmu

<small>[ December 23, 2004, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: Dimmu ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Dimmu:
With forgiveness and reconciliation...I guess at this point in time, I am unwilling to do both. She hasn't ask for nor does she deserve, my forgiveness. I believe that a person should want forgiveness, in order to recieve it. I could forgive her if she stopped doing what she is doing, and asked for it. But if I forgive her now, then she basically has my blessing to continue on with what she is doing. I hope to forgive her someday, but now just isn't the time.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Forgiveness is NOT dependent on the offender asking for it. Forgiveness is letting go of the need for restitution and renouncement of the anger and bitterness of the offended. After your WW's first affair, you reconciled with her but did not forgive her and it only exacerbated the situation when she lost hope that you would never see her as anything but a lying, cheating woman. It's up to you if you don't want to forgive her but if you don't then the ultimate loser will be you because your anger and bitterness will have taken a permanent place in your heart and will poison the relationships you have with the other people close to you. It's your call but please do give some serious thought to what I've said.

TMCM

TMCM-

I will more than likely find a way to forgive her, at some point in time. I just cannot do that right now. She had asked me (hypothetically of course) if she wanted to try to work things out, could I actually forgive her. I told her yest I could, that I found the tools to help me do so, if she was willing to do her part in the event of a reconciliation. She said "yeah right". I told her that there had to be a commitment to better ourselves to avoid this kind of thing in the future, and she had to have NC with OM. That of course, was before I found out more information about things that went on behind my back.

I know that there will be a way to forgive her one day, but if I do it now, it won't be true. I do not want to hold any kind of grudge or animosity towards her, but I am still in the midst of all of this. She is still causing me pain. All I can do now, is fight the impulses to become a thorn in her side, for the sake of vengeance. I may still sow the seeds of dissent, at least between her and her A having older sister, only for the benefit of all involved. Other than that, I do not want to be who I was after her first affair (might not have been first affair according to SIL). AO, DJ...thats what I did after D-Day. It took three plus years to forgive her for the affair, only to be repaid by an affair that is far worse than anything else she has done to me so far (that I know of).

I am sorry if my posts today seem more cynical and bitter than usual, but I am struggling with all of this.

Dimmu

<small>[ December 23, 2004, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: Dimmu ]</small>

Dimmu,
Listen to TMCM. Read his post over and over again he's right

Anytime those thoughts (the sexual ones) pop into your mind. Stop them immediately.

The bad thoughts create the ugly mood not the other way around. I was contiually getting upset over the A until I learned this and actually wanted to put it into practice.

TMCM,
Thanks for the reminder on forgiveness. We all could use a booster shot once in awhile!

Mac

cwmac-

I had actually accomplished the abilty to blot out those thoughts when they invaded my mind. It was this new information from my SIL that got me going again. Thats why I just want my WW to come clean on everything that has been done in the last 7 years, only so I can heal from it and move on. Knowing and feeling that there are things that I do not know are eating at me like a cancer.

I now have medical coverage, and have contacted a counseling center for issues like this. Maybe they'll have some steps that I can try, to halt the random flooding of my mind with painful images. I also need to find a way to halt this ping-ponging between love and hate for my WW. Its wearing me down. Right now, I feel absolute disgust for the whole marriage. At least I have two smart and adorable children from it all.

TMCM had warned me a few weeks ago, that soon my Taker was going to take control, and my marriage vows would be thrown out of the window. I think he was right on the money.

Thank you everyone, for responding to my posts with your advice, support, and insight. It is always reassuring that I have somewhere to go and great people to talk to in times of need. I just wish I wasn't feeling the way that I do right now, especially during the holidays. I would also like to wish everyone a happy holiday season.

Dimmu

Dimmu... I have to give you credit. I could never do Xmas with my TBXWW. While I agree that there are times when it's best to "fake it" for the benefit of the kids, I'm of the mind that it's much worse for kids to spend an otherwise happy holiday like Xmas in an environment so full of tension that you could cut it with a knife.

Also, I want you to know that I totally understand your feelings on forgiveness. I don't know when I'll ever forgive her; she was a serial cheat as well during the engagement and the seven year marriage, and one of the greatest obstacles to forgiveness (or, frankly, to being able to muster up anything more than cold civility towards her) is the reminder that I was never even granted the opportunity to try to work with her to build an honest marriage, because her dissatisfaction and cheating were so masterfully hidden from me, until she had decided that she didn't want to reconcile but just wanted out. When she sat me down 16 months ago and dropped the bombshell, I had NO idea. I feel like the marriage was a fraud.

In the last few months, I've found that I don't even like to look her in the eye -- it's too personal at a time when I need to detach myself from her as completely as possible, and cut her out of my life. Like you, I wish I didn't have to see her or speak to her again... but, because of the kids, I don't have a choice.

I also know what you mean about her "still causing you pain." For some reason, it's very important to my TBXWW that I recognize that she's changed and become an honest, high-integrity, moral person. However, I have no interest in recognizing that, because it's just a reminder that I was never "good enough" to have those same things lavished on me. Instead, she's lavishing them on her BF. She also wants to "make amends", but that means nothing to me, because the time to do so was 16 months ago. Anything from her now is just table scraps.

I don't know if or when I'll forgive her, but it'll take more time. Maybe someday, when I'm in a healthy relationship and realize, out of the blue, that I've reached a state of total indifference towards TBXWW.

I truly wish you a merry Xmas. Be sure to spend as much time with family and friends as you can -- mine have been invaluable in getting through all this.

reservoirdog1-

I didn't have much of a choice on the xmas thing...because of other things invloved with my sitch, I will not allow my WW to take my children to the state where she lives, so she must spend xmas here. At the time that the plans were made, I still wanted to find a way to save my M. It is only the past few days, and also because of the info I recieved last night, that I have basically decided that my WW disgusts me right now, and that I no longer want the M in any way, shape or form.

It seems that our sitches have a lot in common, like the M being 7 years, and feeling that our M's were frauds. Its a shame that any of us have to experience these kinds of things. If you are searching for a way to forgive your TBXWW, I wish you the best of luck. I know I need it. Have a Merry Xmas, reservoirdog1!

I truly hope that all of us that are going through such troubling times have a better new year ahead of us!

Dimmu

First of all, very few women can achieve an Orgasm thru Intercourse regardless of penis size. Clitoral stimulation is needed in about 93% of all women. The only way to achieve clitoral stimulation with the penis is in the Missionary postition and it's not that easy, trust me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

I've made women have an orgasm with very little touching whatsoever.

The largest sex organ is the brain. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

That's like a Male leaving his wife because some other woman has larger Breast, complete nonsense.

All FOG talk, a way to get revenge or to embarrass you.

TA-

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First of all, very few women can achieve an Orgasm thru Intercourse regardless of penis size. Clitoral stimulation is needed in about 93% of all women. The only way to achieve clitoral stimulation with the penis is in the Missionary postition and it's not that easy, trust me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have read this a few times over the past few years. My WW always prefered oral SF (for herself) before intercourse. I have also read that you can bring a woman to orgasm through intercourse (I would describe the method, but I don't want to get to graphic as to offend anyone on the boards). I never had a problem satisfying her orally (or with intercourse, if I am to believe anything she has said over the past 7 years), but she also mentioned that as one of the reasons she likes OM...oral SF.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All FOG talk, a way to get revenge or to embarrass you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I truly hope that this is the case, but my gut doesn't feel very good about it. I cannot see what there would be to gain from such a scheme. My WW would have to say that to SIL and FIL, hoping that they tell it to me, so that I could confront her about it, so that she then would lie and deny ever saying those things, and then yell and SIL and FIL for "talking to Dimmu and not being on my side! You are my sister and father! You are supposed to be on my side!" Which is why they won't tell me everything they know.

It could be true though, that my WW is a far sicker person than I could have imagined, and she really wishes for me to endure as much pain as she can dish out.

Dimmu

Well, of course you don't have a good feeling about it. It is a mean and sick thing to say at your expense.

As for its validity, please believe Cherished's post. Never once in my life have I heard another woman express a preference of one man over another because of penis size. It's ridiculous, and if it's her true feeling, it doesn't say much for her as a person.

I am amazed.

btw, can you have a plan that will get you away from her after the kids have gone to bed? Why sit around with her, anyway, and subject yourself to that? There are lots of good books you could be reading upstairs in your own room, plenty of movies to watch, etc.

I wish you a blessed Christmas,
PM