ok....

I don't want to see Orchid's post threadjacked....I really am interested in what she is getting at in her post...

I just epouse Dewt's view in this....our 'tones' and words used here should reflect as much as possible, our MB beliefs....

I have no problems with the content of the post, rather, the title is rude....LB...DJ...the wording is akin to nails scratching down a blackboard...that's all..it just...affected me this am...

but, since there are a few things I did want to address, but did not want to further threadjack poor Orchid's post...I'll do it here...


PEPPERBAND said:

WH (before discovery) told me and our kids that he "had to go" to his hometown to care for his ailing Dad. Fine. On Father's Day. OK, fine ... you want to be with your Dad on what might be his last Father's Day. WH spent a few hours with his ailing Dad. Spent the remaining 4 days with OW at a resort.

Dewt, and Soulloss ... are you telling me WH's affair actions were not stinky and full of stench????

no...they were mean, cruel, deceptive, heartless ...."stinky" and "stench" almost seem deceptively 'cartoonish' in their child-like simplicity...

but a BH spending the night at a hotel with a girlfriend he denies having, visiting the town you used to live in together, introducing said girlfriend around at shop right behind his former home, on the very afternoon that his son's 8th birthday party is happening....a party he told WW and son he could not attend...yet there he was..200 feet away ...


I dislike the word 'stench'....but the above actions from a BH who is telling his WW that he loves her and wants to be married to her all the time the above is happening,...well...it's not smelling like roses either ....

each the WS and the BS have their 'scripted' responses...we have all seen it....

I just wanted to add that at times, the BS is not 'daisy fresh'...and the WS can use that to THEIR advantage....care must be taken...a BS can put a huge odour of "there is no safe haven here...no safety, no protection...no rule of care"...out there into the WW's universe...

with their own continued unpleasant odourific behaviour, some WW's continue their own bad smells with finger pointing and that is how a WW turns it into their own advantage...pointing hypocritical fingers (my own have been in there!)... and further justifying their actions....the whole "see..that's why (insert preferred affair excuse here)..."


then Papermom wrote:
Don't cheat on me, lie to me and my children, risk bringing STD's into my bed, and then ask me to talk nice to you .
PM


and the instant response in my head goes off....

"then why are you here at MB?...plan A, the basic Harley notes......if you don't 'talk nice', how do you ever expect to recover your marriage?

just like if we here, do not 'talk nice' to each other, how the heck can we expect to carry that forth in our daily 'real' lives...if we can't plan A each other, why go home and try to plan A someone you love and want to recover with?

this 'harshness of tone' that is perceived is perhaps not felt by all, fine..ok...not everyone is the same...

but that goes for the 'scripted' WS actions also...some are eerily similar...some are scripted so tightly that it is farcical...(is that a word?)...but...at the core of it are individuals...


LOVING BOUNDRIES said:

I agree that there is a difference between those two things. However, if the behavior stinks long enough and intensely enough it does eventually become part of the person and then the person himself/herself stinks (not just their behaviors)...

On the other hand, my attitude and behavior stank (or is it stunk?) bad enough and long enough that most, if not all, of my sweetsmelling things were overpowered by the stench. I was definitely in danger of anything sweetsmelling about me being REPLACED by that stench.

I still have attitudes and behaviors that stink, but I will not become the stench because that is not what I want for myself. I have no idea why FWH is happy with his choice but he is. My FWH's stench makes it easy to not notice (or to even dismiss) my own stinky attitudes and behaviors, and that is currently my biggest roadblock to eventually coming out of this smelling lemony fresh


hmmmmm...much food for thought in there...I'll have to come back to this...perhaps we can discuss...I feel much of my own 'odour' over the years has been overpowered by dewt....but mine IS there nonetheless....

short version:

we want our marriages back, and we want to be more positive...inject a spirit of marriage saving into the board...

titles like Orchids don't reflect that....

the CONTENT of her post does...

Dylan

<small>[ December 23, 2004, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: soulloss ]</small>

Dylan,

Your observations/opinions are valuable. I do learn from reading what both you and dewt have to say. I certainly wish your communication with each other continues to improve into a healthy R.

I have posted my resposne to all your comments. I am very interested in yours also. You are not hi-jacking...... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

As for the stench part, it can be something removed form one's life. Once it is removed then like changes, they w/b noticed.

IMHO, you and dewt are not among those with the stench. Maybe at one time that c/b true but not now. You both have made great strides and hope it continues in a postive manner.

I have great respect for many a Xws that I have met here or other places in my journey through life. King David was an Xws. Yet even God forgave him but not after he paid a high penality (death of his 1st child by Bathsheeba). This was severe since King David even resorted into having Bathsheeba's husband put on the front line of the battle and had the army retreat leaving him to a certain death. See what an A can go even to a King?

Yet after that, this same king became the ancestor to the greatest teacher on this earth(not trying to make this a religious response).

The stench of his A no longer carried the same intesity as it previously had. Yet it is still in the book for us to read and learn from.

Learning the lesson is why it is vital to deal with the issues up front.

We all make mistakes. That's a fact. We can overcome our issues if we make a concentrated effort and get the right support and help. We must make that effort 1st and last.

JMHO,
L.

Oops, I looked back and saw BS stench. How silly of me to 'assume' you meant a continuation of my other thread. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Ok, BS stench.... I believe WAT started one already. Is that what you meant?

L.

soulloss, thank you for your reply to my post. I agree with others: your thoughts are valuable, and I appreciate the opportunity to read them and learn.

And, in answer to your question of me, that's why I'm here. I am learning and healing.

Nope, my opinions don't fall exactly in line with MB principles, but I do see value in the concepts as a unit, and I'm applying them to my situation as applicable.

Hopefully, my posts will help others to think, learn, and move toward healing as well. When I begin to feel that my posts don't do that or aren't welcome here, I'll leave. Also, when I am told that I'm not welcome here because don't maintain a strict adherence to MB principles, I'll leave.

I won't stay where I'm not welcome, but thanks for asking.
PM

Another thought.

If I express my hurt to my H and use the word "stench" to describe his activities or the aura they leave, he can respond by saying, "Yes, it stunk, and I'm sorry." Then, I can move forward with him in the discussion.

If he says, "Hey! Wait a minute! I resent your using that word to describe anything associated with my actions. I hate that word! It's ugly!", then our conversation is over.

Make sense?
PM

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
posted 12-23-2004 02:04 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another thought.

If I express my hurt to my H and use the word "stench" to describe his activities or the aura they leave, he can respond by saying, "Yes, it stunk, and I'm sorry." Then, I can move forward with him in the discussion.

If he says, "Hey! Wait a minute! I resent your using that word to describe anything associated with my actions. I hate that word! It's ugly!", then our conversation is over.

Make sense?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I don't understand. Can you explain it in a different way ? Because if I'm reading it the way I think it's MEANT..then I have a few questions. But I may be taking it out of context.

I can absolutely understand where soulloss is coming from.

betrayed, I'll try. I welcome your questions as an opportunity to think and grow.

I'm hurt. Badly. But I love my H and my children, so I'm open to doing my part to save my M and make it great, even. Part of that must include a discussion of the pain I'm feeling. If he is open to acknowledging that pain and apologizing, then I can work with him. But, if he refuses to acknowledge that pain, but reacts to his own pain over semantics, I don't think we're on the same page at all.

He hurt me to the core, but he has the nerve to require me to use words he considers "nice" in expressing that pain?

That feels insulting to me.

Am I off track here?
PM

Soulloss.....

While I agree that the content of Orchid's post was reflective of what this board deals with, and perhaps the TITLE of the post may have been offensive to some, I have only one thing to say.....

IT MADE YOU LOOK!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

K

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He hurt me to the core, but he has the nerve to require me to use words he considers "nice" in expressing that pain? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That has a lot of points.
First...why does he want you to be careful with the words you choose ?

Do you have a tendancy to choose words that are critical ? Words that cut, hurt, insult, either by habit or on purpose ?

I think communication style is critical in all aspects of life. Spoken words, can tear someone to the core, and in many cases hurt someone more than physically assaulting them.

I sense something...in your posts. I'm going to keep digging, because I think it's important.

On a scale of 1-10, how much resentment do you feel towards your H ?

Without his effort, would you want to stay in the M ?

If you didn't have children, WOULD you have stayed in the M after DDAY ?

Do you feel he's shown remorse ?

Do you feel that there is something you can do that will effectively allow him to "feel your pain"?

I'm going places with these questions, and I hope we can get through them by the time MB shuts down for the night.

Hey Dylan,

Just saw that you had one of these "stench" threads going too. So I'll just paste my reply on the other one over here...cuz I'm busy & lazy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

BTW, hope you, Dewt and miniDewt have a GREAT Christmas!

--------------------------------------------------
As the betrayee, I felt very justified in saying the most hurtful, cruel things. Even when he was no longer playing the part, I lorded the fact that he was a liar and cheat, and I was not over his head - for three years [Frown] never for a moment letting him forget it.

I am extremely ashamed of the things I said and the way I used his betrayal for an excuse to continually hurt him.

My behavior was no better than his as far as unkindness goes, and very likely just as hurtful. Words hurt! I know that now.

It is easy to play the wounded, most riteous one -I hate that I became the person I did.

But now that I know better I will do better. [Smile]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh....

weaver summed it up beautifully <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

bij, sorry, I had to run a couple of errands.

Word to the wise: stay out of WalMart today!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Based on weaver's post and your response, I think I know where you're going with this. Still, if it gets me closer to where I need to be mentally and emotionally, let me respond to your questions.

How much resentment toward H? probably 7, at least

without his effort? Depends on what you mean. If he were still cheating, no, I would not stay. He's not a lot of help in my healing, however, and here I am.

without children, I would not have stayed

He has shown great remorse but wants me over it PDQ and without bothering him about it much. Won't do counseling unless I insist, is tired of talking about it, etc.

There's nothing I can do to effectively allow him to feel my pain.

I don't use mean words on purpose, and I don't think I lord it over him or feed "it" to him for breakfast, so to speak. However, I'm willing to consider this as a possibility if you can help me realize how I do this.
PM

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How much resentment toward H? probably 7, at least

without his effort? Depends on what you mean. If he were still cheating, no, I would not stay. He's not a lot of help in my healing, however, and here I am.

without children, I would not have stayed

He has shown great remorse but wants me over it PDQ and without bothering him about it much. Won't do counseling unless I insist, is tired of talking about it, etc. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Resentment is the leading cause of failed recoveries. You should know this early on, also from reading SAA. Overcoming resentment is solely the responsibility of the BS. There is nothing a WS can do to overcome this.

Resentment, will cause you to overlook efforts being made by a FWS, and also close you off to the happiness you're entitled to.

You're healing, is also not dependant on what your FWS does or doesn't do. Healing, forgiveness, is a choice. It takes time, and you have to be ready to cross that threshold, but it's not a miracle waiting to happen. It's effort. You have to reach for it, and we are sometimes unable to. Everything we've stood on that made us believe that leap of faith was safe and secure has been stolen. To make that leap again, will take a tremendous effort again on your part.

The fact that you wouldn't have stayed if you didn't have children speaks volumes. Is this the kind of marriage you want ? What happens when the kids grow up, and move on with their own lives ? Are you going to LIVE your life, or are you going to go through the motions ?

Many WS grow tired of talking about it. They sometimes get the same questions, 100 times, then as BS, we realize this, and find more creative ways to ask...you guessed it...the same question.

If your questions, conversations, include where you are NOW, where you WANT to go, what goals YOU have, your communication will improve greatly.

I'm telling you this out of experience. My H, wanted to do everything he could to help me through this. I made the mistake of thinking he had to pay for his sins, that we would rehash this as many times as I needed to in order for us to "move forward".

One day, my H said, if you can convince me how talking about this EVERY day, will help you heal, we will put the rest of our lives on hold, and talk about nothing but this for as long as it takes, but you better be sure THIS is how you want to heal. By reliving the past, every day.

I had to make a choice...because like you....I had to ask myself, what role I had to play in recovery. I couldn't just sit back and wait for some revelation on his part. I couldn't wait for him to "get it".

I am here because THIS IS WHERE I WANT TO BE. I would NEVER be here for any other reason.

Recovery is work done by two. And sometimes...a lot of the work has to be done independant of the other. The best my H can do is be consistent. When I make a real effort to move forward, then when I DO have an event, he's very supportive, because he knows it takes a considerable amount of will power on my part not to let this run me over.

Being the BS SUCKS. There's no two ways about it.

But I'm a firm advocate that once you decide to stay in this marriage, AFTER DDAY...you have an obligation to give 100% of yourself, 100% of the time. No room for the taker to come out right now.

This takes work. It's not going to happen if I don't work at it.

This was my most valuable lesson learned. And by letting go of this, I've reeped the rewards. My H has come out the other side of this mess, a better person, a more caring and loving man.

Give yours a chance. You may find a gold mine on the other side of the resentment.

WE, as BS, have the right to hurt, turmoil, dismay, confusion, depression, fury and regret. But ONCE we make that choice to rebuild the marriage, we've committed OURSELVES...to moving past it... because you have forgiven it already. Or else...their would be no recovery talk at all. DDAY would have been a one way street.

It's difficult. Give it until the 6th month mark of recovery.

But I've found, that when I put effort into NOT talking about the details of the A, for a day, another would follow...and MY reward...was shortly thereafter, it STOPPED consuming my life. I realized I was giving it TOO much time, too much emotion, and too much of myself.

I RECLAIMED...my marriage, my emotions, my love, my H, my family, my future, and there was no room for OW or A there.

It's self empowerment, and it can work in amazing ways.

bij, I want to let you know that I've read your post and immensely appreciate your words and your time. I haven't digested it all yet, but I'm printing your post so that I can study it more fully. I believe there is much for me in it. I'll get back to you if that's ok.
Gratefully,
PM

jersey,

THAT was an incredible post! I think you should link it and share with as many BS in recovery as possible. I'm serious about that. I think it was SH who said the BS is the greatest risk to the marriage, and you pretty much captured it right there on what to do and what not to do.

Really, really good.

Thanks weaver, wasn't searching for any appreciation, just saw a little something in papermom's post, and wanted to reach out to her.

That's what we're all here for isn't it ? Helping each other across the mind fields ?

Happy Holidays !!!

but thank you again, I'm glad you understood what I posted.

BIJ ... double wow.

So when does your book come out????

Or will you do an e-book live <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ??

Thanks for such clarity & insightfulness.

Ktulu X

This post is interesting because it deals with the concept of communication and if we take time to think about it, there are few elements in life more important. The greatest wisdom known to man pales with that wise man’s lack of ability to make others aware of his wisdom.

And we all know how powerful words can be. Have we all not experienced times in our lives when after having said something, and in that very moment that those words passed from our lips, we would do anything if only we could take them back and to had never said them?

I think that a large part of Plan A, maybe even a major emphasis, needs to be us learning when to speak and when not to speak. Even more important is that we learn to listen and not just hear. Further, I think that if most of us, BS & WS in kind, could simply learn that saying less is almost always “more” then saying more. That every question asked doesn’t have to be answered or at least not in the moment it’s been asked. That in fact, every question asked, does not always deserve the respect of an answer! That at times, just turning one’s backs and walking away, can say more then all the words in the Library of Congress!

I also think that wise communicators know that the spoken word is just the medium we use to deliver much of what we want to pass on and that how the medium is used is almost always more important then the medium itself. That we can say the most offensive words imaginable, yet they will be accepted if presented in a palatable manner.

But most important of all, wise communicators know that speaking the words has no real meaning. Real communication is achieved when we show what we want others to know about us. To say that you love some one means nothing unless you behave in a way that is loving. Saying “I’m sorry” has no meaning unless you behave in a way that SHOWS that you’re sorry. Promising to be honorable means nothing unless you act in a way that shows you are honorable. Saying that you will try means nothing unless the effort to do so is put forth.

Merry Christmas to all.
Coach

I agree 100% Coach.

And I really tried to refrain from having to get a word in here, but it seems I have failed. LOL

Learning to keep my mouth shut and just listen is one of the hardest things for me, however the older I get the more I see the wisdom in it. Often "less" is sooo much more than "more".

Soulloss..

I sit and wait and wonder when are you going to post...
when are you going to post...

not in some strange stalking way...
not in some arrogant she should be posting here cause she needs help way... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

but in a "I wonder how soulloss is doing..deep down doing inside of her....
and i wonder when and if she is going to feel better about life....

which in and of itself is very arrogant and strange cyber thinking on my part...
cause you may very well be very very content in your world.....and i pray you are...

but I read dewts posts...

and I think the same of him as well sometimes...

that I sometimes think we people make things a lot harder than they have to be...and somewhere or somehow we lose our ability...
to once again just be..
and really enjoy our time on earth...which is very short...

so often when I have posted to you I got chastised by others for not knowing the WHOLE story...
or hit what I felt was roadblock...

and the biggest roadblock came months ago when you said you just needed time to find yourself...

and I mean no malace when I ask you...

how is that going...
how does one find themselves...
and are you feeling better....

I wish you would post more about you..but that IS arrogant thinking on my part...

but I know you are really intelligent...
and I always get the feeling that you hold back so much when you do post here.....

are you recovering your marriage...

I guess I just hope you and dewt and minidewt are well
and I hope you and he can really recover this...
even inspite of everything else...

ARK