Hi everyone! I´d like to have your opinion on something that hasn’t been discussed on this forum, at least lately. First you need to know that I suffer from doormat syndrome, plus third world (now nicely called developing) country syndrome and being in a Latin country I am also discriminated against (unconsciously?) for being a woman (women still belong in the kitchen here),chauvinism etc . In spite of all that I am an MD so I’m not that dumb and I do rebel against all those things I mentioned.
Brief recap of situation, me 46 BS, WH 48, 3 dds, 17, 17 and 16. d day oct 2004, OW secretary 28, plan A until 26th dec, now plan B.

Now for the question. One´s first impulse is to kick the WS out and demand a divorce, justifying this not only with the A but every other thing that one perceives was wrong with the M for as many years that it lasted. But in many instances there is also an instant reaction of wanting to keep that marriage or recover it, so what usually happens is that a few days or weeks go by while you try to understand what´s happening and then comes the moment when you have to decide: divorce or try to save the M. One could imagine pages and pages of reasons for either choice. Most of the people who we meet on MB have decided to save their M, most of the ones who decided to D probably don´t get here, so we really don´t know much about them, nor their As, nor their WS etc.

So my question is why would we want to save a M that is obviously flawed, and in the light of the horrible actions and behaviors of the WS during the A? Why do lots of people feel they want to save the M even during those first few moments?

In my case I was already having a troubled marriage a year or 2 before the A and had already asked myself whether I wanted to be married to soon to be WH and had answered that I did, and you know why? Because I had been married for 18 years and that is a long time during which I lived “different” kinds of relationships with him which I could never have with anyone else! I can´t be 20+ again with anyone, I wouldn´t have my first child with anyone else, it has already happened and I want to live the next “different “ relationships (freedom from the kids, better financial position, traveling etc) with the same person because then I will know what a 30 year marriage is like, or a 40 yr one etc. That I could not do with a new person. So I want to keep building on this relationship.
Obviously my marriage has not been bad and WH has not been abusive or cruel, has not abandoned the family or any of the terrible things that some WS do.
Also, I did read somewhere that the WS is probably your best choice, because you already know him/her, have already been committed to him or her, you have been happy together etc.
I think it was SH or another counselor who told Faithinme that she was the best wife for her WH. I remember she specifically mentioned it in one of her posts. And I was surprised and I remember because probably that was when I was personally asking myself why I wanted to save the marriage after d day.

On the other hand I have read about situations in which I think D is the best option, BUT I feel that when the A has just been discovered and the first few weeks after d day it is not the best time to decide. The fog is real although its depth and manifestation may have a lot to do with the WS previous personality as most mental disorders do. In my case my WH has spoken very little so there is not much babble, he does not seem capable of lying to me except by omission and I can tell that he feels guilty and bad, recognizes he is making a mistake but seems powerless to stop the affair (as far as I know) although he does not make it a priority in his life, so that is why I have proceeded to plan B.
I´m committed to trying to save my marriage and will continue for at least a few months so my ending is not here yet. Since I´m in plan B I have more time to think.

Bottom line: When is a marriage worth saving? Are they all worth saving? (I agree with LM here that not every marriage is worth trying to save) Is there a time frame to make that decision? Do we have to put emphasis on feelings of “love” or on actions to decide? Of the BS or the WS? What conditions should be present to suggest a marriage can be saved or shouldn´t be saved (barring the obvious abuse, rape, etc)?

LM, I ask you because I´m interested in your opinion because of your story, but I would also like to hear from all the rest of the fine people at MB who give such good advice.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cc46:
<strong>So my question is why would we want to save a M that is obviously flawed, and in the light of the horrible actions and behaviors of the WS during the A?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very simply, for me anyway, because flaws can be corrected and horrible actions and behaviors can be ended, forgiven, and prevented.

The value of an intact family is worth the effort.

Even if the effort fails, as in my case, the "failee" can have a clear conscience going forward for starting their new life, knowing that they at least tried to preserve what was valuable to them and to others. It's always

worthatry

cc46,
I'm really taken with your story. So I hope I can help you some.

When I first found out, I threw H out. I never even considered reconciling until I found MB.
But I remember one of the first things someone told me was wait at least 6 months to make any decisions.

If you really read up on the Plans...and understand them, you'll see there is a lot of personal growth in both of the plans. In a way, it does prepare you for recovery, whether or not the Marriage is recovered, it will help YOU recover as a person.

It really sounds like you're struggling with your decisions, maybe if you work through some of them, you'll have a better understanding on how to go forward.

I truly read a lot of confusion in your posts, I hope we can help you with them.

I'm going to look up your story if I can...is your WH still with OW ?

We should want to save a flawed M because that is the only kind there is. If you see someone you think has a perfect M or spouse you are wrong.

As far as a time frame for Plan B....18 to 24 months is a good rule of thumb and is supported by what we know about the biochemistry of affairs. That's about how long the chemical cocktail produced in the attraction stage of love takes to wear off. The truth is....that only an extremely small percentage of WS stay with their A partners...almost all of them try to go back home. When your H does....that will be the time to evaluate if you want him back. If you don't....that's the appropriate time to consider your other options.

Betrayedinjersey,
I want to save my marriage and I am following MB principles.I read everything on this website and others, I finally got the book SAA a week ago and yesterday I received Torn Asunder which I am already reading. I am convinced of trying to save MY marriage,at least for now. My WH´s A takes place during the day (I guess they take off somewhere) and he had taken her for the weekend to our summer house several times.I was unable to go because my ds did not want to go and I couldn´t leave them alone at home. He has moved out, is now in a hotel but willmove to a rented place tomorrow and has told me and hid ds that he will live alone. He has shown no desire tomake his relationship with OW public and was very surprised when I exposed it to his brother and my family.
If it is ongoing, I don´t really know but he hasn´t said it isn´t, so I guess that needs to be the first step.
But my questions arises from the fact that some people DON¨T give their marriages a chance or expect their marriage to go instantly back to "normal" or they will divorce. And then as time passes they keep fighting with the decision of trying to save their M or not. If you follow MB this doesn´t happen because you are given reasons for doing things, goals and expectations and you follow a plan. Not everyone does follow these principles. Some people don´t want to even hear of them.One woman told me she didn´t believe in these principles,couldn´t have followed them and that she screamed at her husband for 3 years until he got it!
I´m sure that in the social environment where I belong, lots of As happen, many are swept under the rug, some end in divorce, and probably many are ignored. Exposure is frowned upon. But we are mostly Catholic and adultery is not condoned.
My mother asked me whether I would consider remaining married. I said of course I would, I think she expected me to say I would get a divorce. Now this is a bit of a double standard I´m sure, because if this were about a guy having an affair I´m sure she would not consider it necessary to divorce. My cousin (male) separated last year after 18 yrs of M and went around boasting of his 17 year affair with one OW (and probably many other As he´s had during those years) and everyone knew. Probably his wife has known for a while too. But neither my mother or my aunt were at all shocked by his situation whereas they are by mine.
But I believe in trying to save my marriage, but I don´t believe all marriages are worth saving. But what makes some of us want to save it and others not want to save it?

Lemonman, if you chime in on this, can you clarify something for me?

If I recall correctly, your initial response to your wife's affair WAS to give her a second chance. Am I correct about that?

I mean..it seems that it took you a while to come to the realization that it simply wasn't going to work - that it would never be the relationship you want and expect.

Am I correct about that? Are you normally a person who believes in second chances?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cc46:
<strong>
Bottom line: When is a marriage worth saving? Are they all worth saving? (I agree with LM here that not every marriage is worth trying to save) Is there a time frame to make that decision? Do we have to put emphasis on feelings of “love” or on actions to decide? Of the BS or the WS? What conditions should be present to suggest a marriage can be saved or shouldn´t be saved (barring the obvious abuse, rape, etc)? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Great questions! I struggle with these too. My most recent thoughts are that it depends on whether a person's behaviors are the issue, or whether there are major differences in their world views. I look at my H and see someone from a broken family in which not one member of his large family has ever sustained a relationship, not one has been able to maintain commitments, and many have even fled (physically) to other parts of the country to "escape." I also see a person who is preoccupied with himself - not narcicism, but the opposite: in other words, anything that goes wrong he thinks is being blamed on him. He lives in the past as a predictor of the future, and does not believe people can ever change. (This makes me think he isn't able to change himself, since it is his belief that people can't). There are other things as well - but this is a sampling of ways in which we see the world differently.

It is hard to communicate when our words are interpreted differently because of different perspectives, rather than just different semantics.

There is also the question of a person's values and what gives them their integrity. Some people rationalize behaviors that others simply can't live with - and see no problem with it. Again, I think their "world views" may be incompatible. For example, "trust" and "honesty" may mean different things to different people. If one person has hard and fast rules that always apply to these values, and another person sees them as varying depending on the situation, there is bound to be conflict.

My current thinking is that perhaps these are obstacles that cannot be overcome with communication or good intentions. I don't know what it would take to overcome some of them. People can make decisions about their behaviors and choose to do - or not do - certain things without causing themselves great inner conflict. But when changes create conflict with who they are inside, this is another story - I'm not so sure this type of difference between people is resolvable.

That's where I'm at now in looking at my M, and whether I would be willing to work on it again. The verdict is not in yet, but is getting closer.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cc46:
<strong> Exposure is frowned upon. But we are mostly Catholic and adultery is not condoned.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The very reason exposure works.

Oh, one more thing - if exposure IS frowned upon, that's condoning the the adultery, isn't it?

WAT

<small>[ December 28, 2004, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

cc46,

To LM or probably you at this moment, I and a few others seems like we are trying to save M at all cost ... we aren't. As matter of fact, I did end my M after plan B. I take from my post to LM and I add Love to it. (love not in-love)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>When there is no love ... give 'em hope ... when there is no hope ... give 'em thing to do until they could make rational decision w/o anger, fear or hurt and LOVE.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you there yet ?. I am a Dv Care facilitator in my church, I saw way too many wounded soul that regereting their decision years after Dv.

hope this help -rh-

My religious beliefs about marriage are also key. I believe that GOD brought my FWH and us together and that evil forces tried to drive us apart.

As STEVE HARLEY himself told me, my husband is my lifemate and teammate. Our marriage was crumby before the A. Now it is better than ever. He is basically the same person whom I married 28 years ago. He got caught up in some bad things.

I have so much to say in response to this...

I get so fed up with how people don't value the sacredness and sanctity of marriage anymore. This is a MARRIAGEBUILDERS site..... I believe that people need to fight for their marriages and not give up so easily....

<small>[ December 28, 2004, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mimi1254:
<strong> I get so fed up with how people don't value the sacredness and sanctity of marriage anymore. This is a MARRIAGEBUILDERS site..... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It would be wonderful if everyone here had a partner willing to work on their marriages. Some of us aren't in that situation. The option left for those of us who are going it alone, is to learn as much as we can about what went wrong, who we are and want to be, and how to develop solid relationship values for the future (whether with our current spouses or someone else someday).

Also, for those of us who are learning from this site - hopefully we could apply what we learned to our M's if our absent spouses changed their minds. But maybe some of us are learning that the M we wanted to save is in fact beyond hope. What drew us here initially may not give us the answers we had hoped for - just like learning to listen to God, we may have to discover that it is not for us to decide what the "right" answers are.

I still think people give up on marriages too easily these days. It's just my opinion.

Take my grandparents who were married for 71 years when both of them died. They went through some horrible things but they pulled together and worked through their problems. There used to be more of a stigma about divorce than there is now.

I really feel for those here whose MARRIAGES DIED. I think that it is a tragedy for marriages to fail. However, I have been noticing folks who give up too easily... That's just the way I see it.

Wat :” Very simply, for me anyway, because flaws can be corrected and horrible actions and behaviors can be ended, forgiven, and prevented”

I agree but both S have to want to.

Betrayedinjersey:” If you really read up on the Plans...and understand them, you'll see there is a lot of personal growth in both of the plans. In a way, it does prepare you for recovery, whether or not the Marriage is recovered, it will help YOU recover as a person.”

This is what I´m doing and feeling much better than I was before finding MB. Plan A for 2months,plan B since the 26th.

Mr. E: “We should want to save a flawed M because that is the only kind there is. If you see someone you think has a perfect M or spouse you are wrong.”

Thanks. This gives me hope.

Star*fish:” As far as a time frame for Plan B....18 to 24 months is a good rule of thumb and is supported by what we know about the biochemistry of affairs. That's about how long the chemical cocktail produced in the attraction stage of love takes to wear off. The truth is....that only an extremely small percentage of WS stay with their A partners...almost all of them try to go back home. When your H does....that will be the time to evaluate if you want him back. If you don't....that's the appropriate time to consider your other options”

I don’t think nc for 18 months will be possible or logical, specially since WH is being “very nice” about everything and because we share 3 Ds. But I will use this time frame as a waiting time.

Déjà vu: “There is also the question of a person's values and what gives them their integrity”

WH firmly believed in marriage, fidelity and family. That’s why I married him!!! He is just a different person now.

Wat:” Oh, one more thing - if exposure IS frowned upon, that's condoning the the adultery, isn't it?”

Maybe I got the word wrong (I am Latinamerican) I meant it is not approved but there is leniency towards men as in all latin cultures.

Redhat: “Are you there yet ?.”

Don’t think so. There are a lot of issues that haven’t addressed between us. There is some anger, a lot of hurt. But I have hope. I am not thinking of divorce. But I’m not sure I understand what you mean.

Mimi1254:” My religious beliefs about marriage are also key. I believe that GOD brought my FWH and us together and that evil forces tried to drive us apart.”

I also think GOD brought us together. I don’t regret marrying WH at all, on the contrary I can’t imagine not marrying him. And I feel GOD’s presence always.

“I get so fed up with how people don't value the sacredness and sanctity of marriage anymore. This is a MARRIAGEBUILDERS site..... I believe that people need to fight for their marriages and not give up so easily”

it would be interesting to know what people who don’t go to a marriagebuilders site think, why they don’t even try, could they believe that there is no possibility of recovering?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cc46:
<strong>
Déjà vu: “There is also the question of a person's values and what gives them their integrity”

WH firmly believed in marriage, fidelity and family. That’s why I married him!!! He is just a different person now.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's depressing. I'm sorry to hear it. I guess I shouldn't be surprised - I remember from a class I took that there was a study about what people do when confronted with ethical dilemmas in the workplace. The study said the majority of people would first change their values to fit their workplace rather than change their workplace or object to what was going on.

Why would you find that depressing? Do most WS not believe in marriage and family before they become W? And do they all not betray marriage and family when they do?

Iknow some WS already have a history of As and I´ve always wanted toask why is this time different? Why think that it is worth saving a marriage that has suffered thru several affairs? when it will probably mean more affairs in the futur?

My WH was never unfaithful in the past as faras I know, and if he has been and I find out I would probably divore him without a second thought. This is a one time thing in my book.

Why would you find that depressing? Do most WS not believe in marriage and family before they become W? And do they all not betray marriage and family when they do?

Iknow some WS already have a history of As and I´ve always wanted toask why is this time different? Why think that it is worth saving a marriage that has suffered thru several affairs? when it will probably mean more affairs in the futur?

My WH was never unfaithful in the past as far as I know, and if he has been and I find out I would probably divore him without a second thought. This is a one time thing in my book.

Yes, all marriages are flawed.

No. Not all flawd marriages can or should be saved.

I have experienced two long-term marriages involving various forms of infidelity. My own (forms of infidelity include emotional affairs and sexual addiction), and my parents (an emotional and physical affair resulting in possibly three "other" children, including myself, and alcoholism - my father's love-affair with Jim Beam, and violence).

My parents are still married, now coming up on 60 years, and my own marriage of 20-plus years.

From the time I could reject my father's abusive behavior as "abnormal", I begged my mother to leave my father - I hated it when she would yell at him that the only reason she stayed with him was for the kids - </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please! Mother, don't put your pain upon my head. I don't need that kind of martyrdom! I'm not asking for it. It's not for my own good. I do not need THIS kind of a father in my life.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I knew it was wrong and I rejected it. But I also was a witness of my mother's violation of her marriage from an early age. This marriage was a battlefield.

And yet, I have no idea what my life would have been like, for better or for worse, had my mother not stayed with my father. I know my father's life is better, sort of, because she stayed. The bottle broke him. She was still there when he finally let it go 14 years ago. But because they had over 40 years of bad habits, hatred, post-trauma, and abusive communication, all is not sweetness in their house. They've never learned how to be happily married and in love with each other. Terribly sad.

My own marriage has it's similarities, in that I married an addict, though well hidden until a few months after we were married. Back then, there was no such thing as addiction to porn. My husband was a hard-working ambitious man, who has been broken by years of living with the addiction and the accompanying low-self-esteem that goes with it. He gets involved in relationships with women who admire his intellect and gentle manner, and is mindful enough of his marriage-vows to cut off ties completely when he realizes that he's emotionally connecting to them more than to me. That's after having one that got way out of hand emotionally involved in our lives, and two others who are in similar professions to him, who are struggling with marital problems and he is an available shoulder to cry on....

Who am I to say which marriage should survive and which should not?

I know this. That my covenants involve more than just myself and my husband. And I know that this forging a workable, compatible relationship isn't fairy-tale stuff that just works without elbow grease and pain and sacrifice. I leave my ego at the door. When I forget that, and my ego enters in, my husband and I are in for a brawl. And typically, that happens only when I get fed up with dealing with his ego.

If your husband is truly penitant, then his latin, or whatever cultural ego must exit the marriage for the sake of the marriage. Yours also must leave. Two years of misery preceding his affair didn't happen just because of neglect. There was some active "taking" going on by one or both of you. Read up on basic concepts "give and take" for more information.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by AndrewA:
<strong> Lemonman, if you chime in on this, can you clarify something for me?

If I recall correctly, your initial response to your wife's affair WAS to give her a second chance. Am I correct about that?

I mean..it seems that it took you a while to come to the realization that it simply wasn't going to work - that it would never be the relationship you want and expect.

Am I correct about that? Are you normally a person who believes in second chances? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AndrewA;

YOu are 100% correct in your recollections. I think there are few...IF ANY, people who divorce immediately after an affair without some attempt at reconciliation. I still cannot belive that I took my wife back after her affair (the 1st time she was CAUGHT) but I did. Anyone who thinks they know what they would do in that situation doesn't really know untill they were faced with it.

I was readily going to do "everything I could do" to save my marriage.....and I DID <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Now, what is so hard for people to understand regarding my situation, is that taking my wife back after this utter and extremely dishonorable act IS ALL I COULD DO....It was EVERYTHING that I could do. Plan A and Plan B and 6 month minimums and all of that BS (read:STUFF) are WAY beyond what I as "Lemonman" could do and still live with myself and keep my self dignity and respect. This is a personal decision, and frankly I used to get extremely annoyed when to others it seemed like this "wasn't enough"....or that I didn't try hard enough so that in 10 years I felt I did everything...YADA YADA YADA. "Enough" is a personal thing. I was not able to live with REPEATED betrayals and continued lies, etc... Call it "fog" call it "addiction" whatever...for me, a repeated betrayal is a deal breaker. I know in my heart of hearts I did everything that I WAS CAPABLE of doing to save my marriage. For others here at marriage builders , this may seem like a walk in the park, as they have the propensity to withstand and accept and ultimately IN MY OPINION rationalize far more despicable behavior than me......i.e. Other children, bankruptcy, STD's, year long false recoveries, public humilaition, and on and on. There is not a day that goes by that I am not amazed at what people tolerate in thier lives in the name of "marriage building"


To me, staying in a marriage with repeated betryals (read: false recoveries) , lies, deceit, etc... is not a sign of strength, but a sign of cowardness. This is just my opinion, I am not making judgements on others here. It may seem like I am, but I am not. I am certainly sure that many see me as "weak" for only giving my WW only one SECOND chance and not working through the Plan A and B's and allopwing her withdrawal from the OM... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> That is fine by me, I am comfortable in my choices.

I believe EVERYONE deserves second chances....well nearly EVERYONE...but for me a second chance is not a MINIMUM of 6 months of deceit, betrayal, and continued cheating. Hey, but that is just me.

I think I erred in my marriage in many ways, but primarily for believing my STBXW is someone she is not. I think WAY to many people here are caught up in saving marriages "that could be"..not "what they are and always have been". They romantacize the WS for who they "think they can be"..not "for who they are".

To the OP, your questions are great, but I don't have the answers unfortunately. I think many marriages are worth saving, but I think MANY aren't. I think many marriages that you see here on this great web site are NOT worth saving...IN MY OPINION. The stories and situations are horrifying to me. I have to leave it at that, as I am getting divorced, and feel unqualified to truly answer the questions.

Someone like Snowbelle or Betryaedinjersey or mimi1254 is better qualified to give you a better answer on "recovery". I don't know your situation but I truly believe that if your WS has cheated MORE THAN once (with multiple people over a long time), then realistically, your chances for "true long term " recovery a very very slim. AT that point IMO, you cannot recover a marriage with someone with that infidelity character trait. You asked for my opinions and I am delivering them.

Thank you for thinking enough of my insight to ask for an opinion. Goodluck.

LM

<small>[ December 28, 2004, 10:28 PM: Message edited by: lemonman ]</small>

LM, I know we've disagreed a bit in the past but do you know I absolutely agree with you that 6 months more of lying and betrayals is too much.

If I had so much as contacted the OM after my H found out that would have been it for my H. I would have been out the door instantly and I knew it.

Jen