Doc SourPerson:

Not wanting to threadjack another thread, I have started one here just for you, in hopes you of hearing and understanding something that is rather near and dear to my heart. Some of your comments on the other thread got me thinking:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by the SourDude:
<strong>I was readily going to do "everything I could do" to save my marriage.....and I DID. Now, what is so hard for people to understand regarding my situation, is that taking my wife back after this utter and extremely dishonorable act IS ALL I COULD DO....It was EVERYTHING that I could do. Plan A and Plan B and 6 month minimums and all of that BS (read:STUFF) are WAY beyond what I as "Lemonman" could do and still live with myself and keep my self dignity and respect. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LM, at times it sounds like you perceive us here on the GQII board as 2x4-ing YOU (or DJ, maybe?) for having given your exW "only one chance" and and for standing up to people here on the board and making them take that long, hard, honest look at themselves. I can not speak for everyone, but this is sincerely NOT the case for me. I have tried several time to try to say this to you in a way in which you can hear it, so I want to try ONE MORE TIME.

I fully and completely understand that you gave to your exW and your former M all that you had to give. You do not look back with regret and wonder "did I do enough?", nor did you allow yourself to be treated with ongoing disrespect and dishonesty. In your truest heart of hearts, you feel comfortable with how you handled things and how they turned out. Okay? I completely GET THAT.

I also fully and completely understand that on the occasion, you look at people here on the forum and in effect wonder to yourself, "How can you continue to let yourself be treated like that? Don't you understand that you are actively CHOOSING to allow yourself to be treated like dirt?" See, Doc, I think the part that is not linking in the communication chain is that not all people have the self dignity and self respect that you did (and do now). YOU may see that they are just going back to the same old behavior pattern, but they don't. Lots of the folks who say they are in Plan A, really are in Plan Denial or Plan Codependency and just do not have the knowledge to know that's what they're doing.

It's difficult to impossible to not allow yourself to be treated like dirt, when you have little or no self-respect. And thus, for lots of folks on this board, our job is not to keep telling them they are letting themselves be treated like dirt (even though they are)...our job is to consistently point out what respect would look like, what codependency is, how they are also participating in the dance, etc. Furthermore, I think our job is to not give up and give them the time to BUILD enough self-respect and self-worth to eventually either build a healthy M or a healthy D.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>...I know in my heart of hearts I did everything that I WAS CAPABLE of doing to save my marriage. For others here at marriage builders , this may seem like a walk in the park, as they have the propensity to withstand and accept and ultimately IN MY OPINION rationalize far more despicable behavior than me......i.e. Other children, bankruptcy, STD's, year long false recoveries, public humilaition, and on and on. There is not a day that goes by that I am not amazed at what people tolerate in thier lives in the name of "marriage building". </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah ha! So now you see what I am talking about! people endure all kinds of degrading, belittling treatment because they don't have the foundation of self-respect and self-worth to start with! you were actually quite blessed and lucky to have a FOO and lifetime that offered you self-respect and value--not all people have that. Some are on a path to discovering that they are valuable enough to be treated with dignity, but you know, LM, people don't learn that overnight. It takes some time and it takes some practice and false steps--especially if you are learning it as an adult. So when you see people enduring these things, bear in mind that in real life most/lots of them really ARE rationalizing...they are rationalizing continuing behavior that they at least KNOW even if it is harmful, because it's more scary to try behavior that is UNKNOWN. The cycle may be damaging, harmful, abusive, etc. but at least they know what to expect!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>To me, staying in a marriage with repeated betryals (read: false recoveries) , lies, deceit, etc... is not a sign of strength, but a sign of cowardness. This is just my opinion, I am not making judgements on others here. It may seem like I am, but I am not. I am certainly sure that many see me as "weak" for only giving my WW only one SECOND chance and not working through the Plan A and B's and allopwing her withdrawal from the OM... That is fine by me, I am comfortable in my choices. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Once again, I can't speak for what others think, but in my opinion, you had the self-worth from the start to say, "I won't tolerate this" and she chose to continue. You did what was appropriate for you, and personally, who am I to say if it is "enough"? That's silly. It's was enough for you!

However, I would mildy disagree with you that staying in M's with repeated betrayals is cowardly. I personally believe one can be brave and stay, or be brave and go--and likewise one can be a coward and stay, or be a coward and go. So I don't think this is a matter of "brave or coward" nor even of "right and wrong"--this is more of a matter of "respect or abuse". (BTW, abuse is one word that is used WAY too often to describe a minor infraction or as an excuse where none exists--and frankly that pisses me off!!! ) When someone is enduring dishonesty, name calling, abandonment, harsh judgement and criticism, blame, betrayal, etc.--guess what? That is abuse!! So even if the M did not have an abuse dynamic before the A, what happens with some BS's is that without self-respect or self-worth, they allow their WS's to emotionally abuse them and don't see that they are too valuable to be treated that way!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I think I erred in my marriage in many ways, but primarily for believing my STBXW is someone she is not. I think WAY to many people here are caught up in saving marriages "that could be"..not "what they are and always have been". They romantacize the WS for who they "think they can be"..not "for who they are".</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Speaking as a person who did not have hardly ANY self-respect or self-value when my exH had his big A, I think this statement here is almost Buddha-esque in it's profoundness. There really are WAY too many people who are chasing the illusion of their M that they have deluded themselves into believing. In my own M, I believed we were "special"--that this could never happen to us--that I was secure--that we would make it. I also believed that one day my exH would care for me and give back to me just as I had cared for him and given to him. I also believe that we were partners and mutual. Literally NONE (let me repeat that...NONE) of that was true. And what is so hard for some people is allowing that ILLUSION to die. Of everything in my own M and subsequent D, that was the hardest thing: to let my illusion die and look at reality square in the face. For many, they have deluded themselves for so long, that to admit to themselves that it isn't true would be soooo difficult and painful that they can not do it--and need help from a professional. For others, there is a path that goes from *complete entanglement with the illusion and codependence* to *detachment and healthy interdependence* that just takes TIME. It takes TIME to accept that what you thought WAS, ISN'T--and then to relearn what IS--and then to find yourself valuable in all of that.

So, LM, this is why I ask you to temper it. Not because what you are saying is a 2x4. Heck no! It's usually right on the money!!! But, people take time to learn what you had the good fortune and luck to know at the start...so give them time to learn and don't give up on 'em.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>...I truly believe that if your WS has cheated MORE THAN once (with multiple people over a long time), then realistically, your chances for "true long term " recovery a very very slim. AT that point IMO, you cannot recover a marriage with someone with that infidelity character trait. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>

Just a sub-note here. It has also been my experience (and I've been here for 4 1/2 years and know virtually hundreds of people) that if WS has cheated more than once, that there is some kind of personality or FOO issue that will take SUBSTANTIAL and intensive personalized IC--and that rarely if ever is a person like that willing to undergo that kind of self-examination and responsibility. It's a little like there's a flaw in the foundational fabric of the person.

Well, hope this gets through. I'm trying hard to get this message to you--let me know if it got through this time!


CJ

bump

Wonderful post CJ. I just brought it to LM's attention on another thread as he maybe hadn't read it.

OK, I did miss this post earlier. I can understand what you are saying and I will go back to the drawing board and temper way down my posts. I can only try to get better about this. I will try and be a more PC marriage builder poster in the new year. How is that for a new years resolution? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

What I think really upsets me is the implication that "others--not you" make that I am writing to just "kick others" when they are down, or just to thumb my superiority over them. I actually on closer exam of your post even understand that. It is all about self esteem and respect. So I don't think more needs to be said. Your post hit hime, and you obvisoult took the time too write a long post so hopefully my future posts have the "soothing" "supportive" tone many builders need here. I can only promise that I will go back to the drawing board and post more to the liking and needs of the board.

Thanks for the post

LM........Keep telling it like it is!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Its refreshing!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by InLikeFlynn:
<strong> LM........Keep telling it like it is!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Its refreshing!!! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can no longer in good conscious "tell it like it is" if my posts are hurting people. I think the OP hit home. My advice and opinions are generally worthless if people are so far from my mind set. That all makes a lot of sense to me now. I am a little "thick" and sometimes things just take longer to sink in for my I guess. I can post till I am blue in the face but it will just seem like I am "criticizing" and "judging". I get it now......almost like an "aha".

While I may think it is "the right thing to do", it would be a shame if my posting "style" turned people away from the board, etc. More people need this board for support than I do (in my current situation). So the greater good of the board should take precedence.

"Telling it like it is" is just not gonna help people the way I would intend it to. I will continue to post, but with a large sized "governor" in my posts. The post by this OP (faithfulin NJ) hit home and I will try and do it this way from now on. There is perhaps another board that I am gonna frequent that my posts will be more beneficial. After all helping the boards members is what this should be all about.

I may slip up occassionaly and may need further re-direction, but I think I am capabale of chaging my style here and tempering things down to be more "supportive".

<small>[ December 30, 2004, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: lemonman ]</small>

Hey SourMale. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I honestly do not take offense at your posts. I admire your honesty. When you throw a 2x4, it is meant as a help. And that comes through. ALWAYS.

I have watched your posts since the time you came on board. And I see you trying. And, sometimes that 2 by is EXACTLY what someone needs. Heck you have guts. I find that with some posters, I follow their thread, and I can't think of a single CONSTRUCTIVE thing to say to them. THey want sympathy but don't do anything for themselves. I can't post to them. I want to tell them to get their head out of their a$$ and deal.

So, you put yourself out there knowing full well that you will take a licking once in while. That is commendable.

Heck, you have posted your thoughts on a couple of my threads. I listen and think about it. And if it applies, I use your info. Sometimes it does.Sometimes there are things that I haven't posted about that make it not quite as valid to my sitch. BUT, I don't take offense at all. It makes me re-examine both my motives and my actions. AND THAT IS A GOOD THING.

I am trying to save a marriage. Not for what is is or was. BUt what it could and should be. I know in my heart how long I will keep at it. I know how much pain and abuse I will tolerate on that faint hope that things will get better. And, I will walk away when that point is reached. If I start to feel bad about myself, I am outta here! BUt low self-esteem is not, nor has ever been, my problem.

I knows that I deserve far better than what WH is giving me or is doing right now. He is lucky I am strong enough to take this crap and fight for our family. Make no mistake, if DD wasn't in the picture, WH would have been kicked to the curb 3 years ago. BUT, with children, the ante is raised a HUGE amount.

Studies have shown that kids fare better even in an unhappy 2 parent home than in a single home. So, that has given me something to think about. I can and will work on an unhappy marriage to make it better. But, in my sitch I HAVE to hang on until I see things close up. That is the only reason I am still trying. I need to work on this day to day close up and personal. If WH and I were in the same town and had to see each other day in and day out, we would have been either reconciled or divorced. No in between for me. Doormatitis is not a disease I have ever had. Ot ever will. I am one tough Mama who is fighting like a she-bear for her cubs. My motto is help me or get out of my way! Not MB PC but it is ME. ANd what I can live with.

Same as you. You did what you could live with. You took what you could take without getting sucked dry. That is all anyone can do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by fightingalone-again:
<strong> Hey SourMale. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I honestly do not take offense at your posts. I admire your honesty. When you throw a 2x4, it is meant as a help. And that comes through. ALWAYS.

I have watched your posts since the time you came on board. And I see you trying. And, sometimes that 2 by is EXACTLY what someone needs. Heck you have guts. I find that with some posters, I follow their thread, and I can't think of a single CONSTRUCTIVE thing to say to them. THey want sympathy but don't do anything for themselves. I can't post to them. I want to tell them to get their head out of their a$$ and deal.

So, you put yourself out there knowing full well that you will take a licking once in while. That is commendable.

Heck, you have posted your thoughts on a couple of my threads. I listen and think about it. And if it applies, I use your info. Sometimes it does.Sometimes there are things that I haven't posted about that make it not quite as valid to my sitch. BUT, I don't take offense at all. It makes me re-examine both my motives and my actions. AND THAT IS A GOOD THING.

I am trying to save a marriage. Not for what is is or was. BUt what it could and should be. I know in my heart how long I will keep at it. I know how much pain and abuse I will tolerate on that faint hope that things will get better. And, I will walk away when that point is reached. If I start to feel bad about myself, I am outta here! BUt low self-esteem is not, nor has ever been, my problem.

I knows that I deserve far better than what WH is giving me or is doing right now. He is lucky I am strong enough to take this crap and fight for our family. Make no mistake, if DD wasn't in the picture, WH would have been kicked to the curb 3 years ago. BUT, with children, the ante is raised a HUGE amount.

Studies have shown that kids fare better even in an unhappy 2 parent home than in a single home. So, that has given me something to think about. I can and will work on an unhappy marriage to make it better. But, in my sitch I HAVE to hang on until I see things close up. That is the only reason I am still trying. I need to work on this day to day close up and personal. If WH and I were in the same town and had to see each other day in and day out, we would have been either reconciled or divorced. No in between for me. Doormatitis is not a disease I have ever had. Ot ever will. I am one tough Mama who is fighting like a she-bear for her cubs. My motto is help me or get out of my way! Not MB PC but it is ME. ANd what I can live with.

Same as you. You did what you could live with. You took what you could take without getting sucked dry. That is all anyone can do. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the post. How is your pre-teen doing with the WH (frightneing isn't it?). You know it is posts like yours that keep me here. It is people with your thought process who I know can understand my posts for what they are. I know a lot of times that I am gonna get "licked" for what I say but after today, I can promise you those times are defintely OVER. Posting to those people cannot help them, and sadly I am probably only hurting them, and that is not what I would ever want.

However, I think I can still find a happy medium and still contribute here to the board. The board will probably have less controversy, so that will be a better change. It is all good. I think I have grown, because two months ago I would have reacted quite differently to this post. It is all about personal growth right?

I hope that you find peace in whatver it is you need to do to be happy, or whatever it takes to make your daughter happy. Your right, only you will know what that is. I may post on your situations or others situation, but in the end it is only you who knows what is right.

Cheers <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Lemonman

I would be sorry if you felt you had to stop posting, as I think your heart is in the right place. But FNCJ said it better than I managed. Please try not to be impatient with people! Loads of us need time to get up the courage to stand up for ourselves. Being told we're cowards only makes us feel worse and reduces our self-worth even more.

I know from personal experience how long a journey it is from d-day to Stand Up For Yourself day. On my d-day, I learned that my H had had multiple affairs and an addiction to prostitutes. He was still in the current affair, and deeply committed. At that point, even through my deep shock, I managed to make clear the fact that I would not tolerate his affair, but that I was willing to explore the marital situation for the sake of our children. Another person might not have chosen to take that path, but it seemed to me the best route for the kids.

Contact continued, of course. The pain was appalling, but I had no real idea of what to do about the situation. I had absolutely no experience of defending myself against such selfishness. I had no-one to turn to - my parents were mired in sickness and I'm an only child. Friends were clearly overcome by the situation and could offer little insight or helpful advice.

So I found an IC - I knew I needed some help. Pouring out my story, I remember that I kept asking "What did I do wrong? Why wasn't I good enough?" And I remember, during that first session, her looking at me with wry compassion and saying "You're so hardened to this treatment, you really don't see it." And I didn't. It took months and months of her gentle, firm work with me before I learned that I had a right and indeed a responsibility to set boundaries with those who abused me. She had to educate me how to endure the discomfort that comes from setting boundaries and infuriating the bound-ees; how to live with the feeling of being a bad person for displeasing another.

You see, I hadn't learned any of that stuff growing up. I had a volatile, domineering mother who tantrumed and raged and over-controlled her whole family. My right to boundaries and respect had been steam-rollered since birth.

And yet, I'm not some down-trodden housewife. I'm a scientist, a highly-paid professional, articulate, bright. I can hold my own in professional settings. Yet I had no capacity whatever to protect myself in an intimate relationship.

It took seven months before I got up the courage to tell H to leave - and really mean it. Which did, of course, earn his respect and change the whole map. In retrospect it seems obvious. But at the time, struggling out of a mindset that said "Give. Be kind. Don't be a selfish person. Don't annoy people.", it was a herculean task.

And through all that, posters here were kind. They were clear that I needed to be assertive. They were clear about the respect I was entitled to. 2x4s were gently delivered. No-one told me I was a wimp. My shock and paralysis was kindly dealt with.

And I got there, in the end.

Lots of people will get there, in the end. But it's like orthodontics; slight pressure consistently maintained.

Happy Hogmanay, LM.


TogetherAlone

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TogetherAlone:
<strong> Lemonman

I would be sorry if you felt you had to stop posting, as I think your heart is in the right place. But FNCJ said it better than I managed. Please try not to be impatient with people! Loads of us need time to get up the courage to stand up for ourselves. Being told we're cowards only makes us feel worse and reduces our self-worth even more.

I know from personal experience how long a journey it is from d-day to Stand Up For Yourself day. On my d-day, I learned that my H had had multiple affairs and an addiction to prostitutes. He was still in the current affair, and deeply committed. At that point, even through my deep shock, I managed to make clear the fact that I would not tolerate his affair, but that I was willing to explore the marital situation for the sake of our children. Another person might not have chosen to take that path, but it seemed to me the best route for the kids.

Contact continued, of course. The pain was appalling, but I had no real idea of what to do about the situation. I had absolutely no experience of defending myself against such selfishness. I had no-one to turn to - my parents were mired in sickness and I'm an only child. Friends were clearly overcome by the situation and could offer little insight or helpful advice.

So I found an IC - I knew I needed some help. Pouring out my story, I remember that I kept asking "What did I do wrong? Why wasn't I good enough?" And I remember, during that first session, her looking at me with wry compassion and saying "You're so hardened to this treatment, you really don't see it." And I didn't. It took months and months of her gentle, firm work with me before I learned that I had a right and indeed a responsibility to set boundaries with those who abused me. She had to educate me how to endure the discomfort that comes from setting boundaries and infuriating the bound-ees; how to live with the feeling of being a bad person for displeasing another.

You see, I hadn't learned any of that stuff growing up. I had a volatile, domineering mother who tantrumed and raged and over-controlled her whole family. My right to boundaries and respect had been steam-rollered since birth.

And yet, I'm not some down-trodden housewife. I'm a scientist, a highly-paid professional, articulate, bright. I can hold my own in professional settings. Yet I had no capacity whatever to protect myself in an intimate relationship.

It took seven months before I got up the courage to tell H to leave - and really mean it. Which did, of course, earn his respect and change the whole map. In retrospect it seems obvious. But at the time, struggling out of a mindset that said "Give. Be kind. Don't be a selfish person. Don't annoy people.", it was a herculean task.

And through all that, posters here were kind. They were clear that I needed to be assertive. They were clear about the respect I was entitled to. 2x4s were gently delivered. No-one told me I was a wimp. My shock and paralysis was kindly dealt with.

And I got there, in the end.

Lots of people will get there, in the end. But it's like orthodontics; slight pressure consistently maintained.

Happy Hogmanay, LM.


TogetherAlone </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Point taken. Thanks for the post. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Sour Male, (Gee I want to say Sour Puss <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

Honestly, if you stopped posting, I would have to hunt you down! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I value your post very much. As far as DD and WH are concerned, I am trying to stay out of it. BUt already had to step in becasue of his idiocy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

BUt, his actions and choices continue to make it easier to do what I need to do for me and DD. And to he!! with what he thinks! He is frickin' insane.

And, not necessarily to stay married. Not ready for Plan B as I am not there for him to even see me or miss me. To be honest, right now, I am more interested in getting into couples counselling with him. It would be nice to save the marriage. BUt more important that Dork deal with his issues. NOt for me or for him. SO he can be a better parent to DD. RIght now I worry about her. His selfishness freaks me. BUt it is ony 2 weeks until I get there. And then she will be under my watchful eye.

Besides, I have to deal with the complaint I put into the military and I have to be there to put the pressure on them to act. What I want is for WH to be posted ashore so that he can concentrate on counselling. And, as I plan on making myself very visible at every opportunity to WH, there will be less time for OW. Dork.

And, I am also pursuing the possibility of a suit against her. If nothing else, DD will get an education fund. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Strategy is to make the minuses of a continued PA between them far outweigh the pluses. Not pc but oh well. She makes the same amount of money as WH, and I am starving over here. SO, she can pay. Okay enough venting.

You need to stay. Honest!

I normally lurk, not post - so LM you don't know me - but I feel I know a little of you.

faithfulnewcj's words about clinging to the illusion hit home so much with me that I clipped them to read more times.

My dday was 12/03 (two kids 8 and 6). He fence-sat for two weeks then moved in with OW. In 3/04 he asked to come back. Although he didn't move back in, we started planning for it. Two weeks later he went back to OW. I was/am devastated. But I'm trying to move on and the D is proceeding. Perhaps luckily for me, he's never made any other overture about coming back - he's through with me and I am trying to move on with my own life and heal.

LM - what I really wanted to say is that it is not just the people you post to that read your words. Lurkers like me do too - and they help. IRL, when someone 2x4's me - I get hurt and cover with anger. Then, when I calm down - I may come to see that they really had a point that can help me. Your points to others help me a great deal in finding the strength I need to move on with my life and not cling to what can't and shouldn't be.

Please consider this in your decision to temper your posts. Please consider that your frank and strong words may be helping more people than you'll ever know.

lemonman,
I usually lurk but wanted to tell you
how much I value your posts.I can tell they
come from your heart.
Please don't change <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


Thanks

Lemon,

If you weren't "right on the mark" with your comments, nobody would be paying attention to you. Please don't apologize for the truth emanating from your heart, mind and soul. And don't temper your remarks, because we both know that sometimes when you talk to people(patients), you sometimes have to shock them to get reality accepted. There are plenty of other posters that I admire greatly that have a different style... a different mindset. That's ok too.. I read 'em and take what I can and leave the rest!

You have changed a lot since I first started reading your posts, IMHO for the better, as a human being and as a doc. Not that you were a bad person, just looking at our(MB) common problem through the life and times of the lemonman.

I remember that your D is final tomorrow. My prayers and thoughts go with you!

Have a Happy New Year my friend!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Cymanca:
<strong> Lemon,

If you weren't "right on the mark" with your comments, nobody would be paying attention to you. Please don't apologize for the truth emanating from your heart, mind and soul. And don't temper your remarks, because we both know that sometimes when you talk to people(patients), you sometimes have to shock them to get reality accepted. There are plenty of other posters that I admire greatly that have a different style... a different mindset. That's ok too.. I read 'em and take what I can and leave the rest!

You have changed a lot since I first started reading your posts, IMHO for the better, as a human being and as a doc. Not that you were a bad person, just looking at our(MB) common problem through the life and times of the lemonman.

I remember that your D is final tomorrow. My prayers and thoughts go with you!

Have a Happy New Year my friend! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">CY:

Thank you for remembering this point. I hope the holidays treated you well. They were great for me untill Santa blasted me with the "flu". I am still feeling like a Mack Truck hit me, and am having to save energy for a call that I have tomorrow night...ughhh. I am actually working the phones and calling in favors to switch, things are looking gloomy for that now (most people have plans to get bombed tommorrow night <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> and cannot relish the thought of being in an OR with some 40 year old drunk who has wrapped his car around a light pole. I specifically asked for an on-call on this day because it was "the End" of my marriage. Interestingly enough, it is not affecting me the way I thought. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

As for tempering my posts, quite honestly I am kind of fed up with this issue conitnuing to arise around here....This has to be like the 50th f-ing post addressing me personally for this. It is a stale issue with me now. It really gets old, and the only way to end it is for me to change my style. I am gonna still post, but the diatribes and constant having to qulaify my posts, I am fed up with. The OP in this thread made some great points and I am gonna heed the advice. I'll be around though, I am not going anywhere yet. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I hope the New Year brings you the happiness and joy you derserve. I realy do.

Cheers

LM,

You'd better not leave, there are very few posters here that "force" (for lack of a better word)the issue of Plan B or staying strong for oneself. As Cy said there are many different styles, opinions. If you left you would be robbing, doing damage to this board.

Just a few thoughts,
Native

See, LM, this is why I hesitate to write to you at all! I respect ya, my man, and your opinions and thoughts are RIGHT ON THE MONEY from my perspective. I was not trying to tell you to be "supportive" because people do not need "supportive". I was not trying to tell you to stop 2x4-ing people because in my opinion you do NOT 2x4 them--you speak honestly and respectfully and they get pissed that you aren't matching their illusions. I was not trying to tell you to be PC because that is Bullsh*t and you know it and so do I (and so do they). Honestly, to be just as frank with you as you are with other people, I'm getting a little sick of your drama queen "I'm going to quit posting" every time someone tries to address you. GEEZ <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I think many, MANY people have made it abundantly clear that not only are you needed here on this forum, you are WANTED.

What I WAS trying to tell you, and I'll try one last time, is that you started your A situation from a position of self-value, and while I can totally understand why it feels frustrating, not everyone starts from a place of self-value. LOTS and LOTS of MB-ers are in unhealthy, harmful marriages and do not realize it, so not only do they need to hear the truth about how their WS is treating them like a dishrag--they ALSO need to hear the truth about how they are more valuable than to accept being treated like that!!

I was trying to point out that you did not accept ongoing lies and deceipt partially because you viewed your own self as VALUABLE. You had a boundary that stated, "I won't allow myself to be treated with continual disrespect." But, sicky SourMale, when some people come here, they come with little or no self-worth...without a clue what a boundary even IS much less how to enforce them...not knowing how to speak up for themselves.

Thus...when a person is starting from that place, it is very different than a person like you who is starting from a position of self-love. I am EXPLAINING, not justifying or excusing, why some posters have trouble standing up for themself to their WS. They still NEED to stand up for themself, but sometimes (not always, but sometimes) people don't have the foundation to stand on. Sooo...we need to keep telling them the truth about respect and self-value, but we also need to help them or show them how they can build a foundation to stand on!

LM, you could keep telling some people forever, "What you are doing is not Plan A! What you are doing is Plan Doormat! You are allowing yourself to be sh*t upon in the name of MB!!" and they won't "get it" because they don't have that self-love foundation.

I'm hoping your threats to leave are about 90% flu and exhaustion and 10% feeling (I don't know)...picked on?? But this isn't meant to be a pick, and frankly I wonder why you so frequently feel as if we are judging or picking on you when we are just talking to you! If you want to leave to "teach us all a lesson" well I can't stop ya. But you will be sorely missed and I think a lot of people would wonder why in the world you left.

Soooo...whaddya think? Do you get my message this time? Will you at least read and re-read without the "she's judging me" chip on your shoulder?? I was hoping you might learn a new aspect of human experience.


CJ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulNewCJ:
<strong> See, LM, this is why I hesitate to write to you at all! I respect ya, my man, and your opinions and thoughts are RIGHT ON THE MONEY from my perspective. I was not trying to tell you to be "supportive" because people do not need "supportive". I was not trying to tell you to stop 2x4-ing people because in my opinion you do NOT 2x4 them--you speak honestly and respectfully and they get pissed that you aren't matching their illusions. I was not trying to tell you to be PC because that is Bullsh*t and you know it and so do I (and so do they). Honestly, to be just as frank with you as you are with other people, I'm getting a little sick of your drama queen "I'm going to quit posting" every time someone tries to address you. GEEZ <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I think many, MANY people have made it abundantly clear that not only are you needed here on this forum, you are WANTED.

What I WAS trying to tell you, and I'll try one last time, is that you started your A situation from a position of self-value, and while I can totally understand why it feels frustrating, not everyone starts from a place of self-value. LOTS and LOTS of MB-ers are in unhealthy, harmful marriages and do not realize it, so not only do they need to hear the truth about how their WS is treating them like a dishrag--they ALSO need to hear the truth about how they are more valuable than to accept being treated like that!!

I was trying to point out that you did not accept ongoing lies and deceipt partially because you viewed your own self as VALUABLE. You had a boundary that stated, "I won't allow myself to be treated with continual disrespect." But, sicky SourMale, when some people come here, they come with little or no self-worth...without a clue what a boundary even IS much less how to enforce them...not knowing how to speak up for themselves.

Thus...when a person is starting from that place, it is very different than a person like you who is starting from a position of self-love. I am EXPLAINING, not justifying or excusing, why some posters have trouble standing up for themself to their WS. They still NEED to stand up for themself, but sometimes (not always, but sometimes) people don't have the foundation to stand on. Sooo...we need to keep telling them the truth about respect and self-value, but we also need to help them or show them how they can build a foundation to stand on!

LM, you could keep telling some people forever, "What you are doing is not Plan A! What you are doing is Plan Doormat! You are allowing yourself to be sh*t upon in the name of MB!!" and they won't "get it" because they don't have that self-love foundation.

I'm hoping your threats to leave are about 90% flu and exhaustion and 10% feeling (I don't know)...picked on?? But this isn't meant to be a pick, and frankly I wonder why you so frequently feel as if we are judging or picking on you when we are just talking to you! If you want to leave to "teach us all a lesson" well I can't stop ya. But you will be sorely missed and I think a lot of people would wonder why in the world you left.

Soooo...whaddya think? Do you get my message this time? Will you at least read and re-read without the "she's judging me" chip on your shoulder?? I was hoping you might learn a new aspect of human experience.


CJ </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For the record, Faitful you post was one of the best posts I have ever read here with regards to the psyche of a BS here at marriage builders. I know that you are only trying to "protect" other posters here. I know this, and trust me, there is not a sentence that I disagree with in your post. My frustrations have NOTHING to do with what you posted, I know that it seems like they do, THEY DON'T. They are more about "other"posters and some recent events here at MB, not even on this thread or forum. I think your advice is good, and in no way, shape, or form do I plan to stop posting here. I never said that. I will tkae some of your heartfelt advice though, because I know that it will be beneficial to all and even myself. It will be nice to not have to quakify any more posts or risk offending people here. I plan on posting this board (GQ II) only and in a non-threatning 2 X 4 manner.

Thanks for the post.

LM

P.S. Drama Queen... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> , yeah, you may be on to something here. This "flu" is killing me and I am not a good "sick" person. I am a wimp.

P.S.

LM, I would like to make one thing clear. I do not know who you THINK I am, but I am not an OP. I was a FAITHFUL, BETRAYED SPOUSE. In my instance, I grew up in an abusive home (sexually and physically), so I am one of the people I wrote to you about. I had no personal boundaries because how can you have boundaries when your father is doing you? Or when your mother is beating you?

I married a man who had many of his own issues, and who continued the abuse cycle. For me, I was involved in ending my M for 2 years after D-Day, and most of it was because I needed to deal with my own abuse issues, with building my own self-value, and with constructing boundaries. At the time of my H's A, I was entangled in an unhealthy, codependent relationship and had NO IDEA what any of that meant. I had to learn it.

Soooo...he treated me like sh*t and I learned as fast as I could. And it took about 2 years before I knew I either stood up for myself or took it the rest of my life. I stood.

I am NOT a wandering spouse--never have been and never will be, because I have safeguards in place to protect myself from myself. I am monogamous and faithful, and I honored my vows until the day the ink dried on the final decree. I worked on myself, my kids, getting life settled and getting my head on straight...AND THEN I began entertaining the thought of dating.

Okay--it's a little bit of a trigger for me, I realize that, but I AM NOT AN OP!!!!!!


CJ

OK, I just took some Codeine syrup and am gonna try and get some sleep. To all who contributed to this thread...Thank you, especially Faitful. All of the comments and suggestions are appreciated. I hope to post tomorrow, but if I end up taking call (please say a prayer some poor sap can cover for me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ), that won't be possible. I will have to post next year (read: in 2 days <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). If I don't post tommorrow, have a great New year's Eve.

P.S. Stay off the streets and don't drink and drive, and don't F with fireworks. These are all issues that are gonna in all likelihood keep me up tomorrow and I am alrady whiny and cranky.

See ya <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

LM