Marriage is more than the license we sign that is true but just where do you draw the line on being unfaithful and not maintaining your vows if we all have these little "clauses" in our minds that give us an out? This isn't the first time this subject has come up but I don't agree that just because a spouse has mentally and/or physically checked out and is behaving horribly that there is the reason to go and have sex with someone else just because they felt like "Oh the marriage was over anyway" Give me a break.That is WS bs.

I never considered my marriage license a "scrap of paper" either.I am married until the VERY DAY that I am legally divorced.And not a moment sooner.If you choose to have lax committments based on which way the wind blows or what you may be feeling for that particular day,well you are entitled to your opinion but at least one person should stand up for the vows and committments that come along with marriage.Every part of it,not just bits and pieces,to the very end.

We are a society that has rules,committments,laws,etc that we follow for good reason.Marriage is a part of that.If we all just dictate what we want to do whenever the mood hits us then more marriages and families will be destroyed and more and more costs will be incurred from the fall out of D.I believe there is always hope for couples and having more than one person in a marriage who is disrespecting their vows and committments while in it just about damages that hope.

Revenge A's and ONS's are just as bad decisions as those that the WS makes and this too has been debated here many times.As nbth said,he still had hopes of a R even though he is in the process of a D.Two wrongs don't make a right and if his WW ever did want to come back,for real,to the marriage,a person should be able to face themselves and be able to say that they were faithful as long as they were married.

You know darn well too that if you are going to start a new relationship that you owe it to yourself,the institution of marriage,other people,families and children to be SINGLE,not separated,not wayward;uncommitted to anyone else FIRST,legally,not just emotionally,mentally and physically.If you don't then I feel sorry for any woman that you next encounter with this thinking.She will be glad to know that you can bail out of marriage and the paperwork and sleep around whenever YOU are not happy or feel that "It's over".

O

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Every part of it,not just bits and pieces,to the very end. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Clearly we have different views as to what constitutes the "end". To me, court recognition of the end of the marriage is a formality. You didn't address my point about couples who split but don't bother divorcing for a number of years, moving on with their lives and new relationships in the meantime. I'm aware of several couples like that. Are they adulterers? You may think so. I don't.

Furthermore, your definition excludes commonlaw relationships, which are not bound by the formal divorce document that you place so much importance on. Is the only thing permitting commonlaw spouses to sleep with others the day after separating (where married spouses, by your logic, cannot), the physical existence of a marriage certificate? Is the commitment between commonlaw spouses somehow less valuable and less deserving of respect and fidelity, just because there's no signed piece of paper?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Two wrongs don't make a right </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree. In my opinion, however, what NBTH did was not a "wrong."

Infidelity by one spouse in a legal marriage does not entitle the other spouse to do the same. However, when the spouses separate with the intention of divorcing, in my opinion the marriage is then over in all but law.

As for me, I stood up for my marriage vows throughout, until my TBXWW decided that she no longer wished to reconcile and wanted us to separate. We didn't actually physically separate for another month, during which time I continued to respect my vows. I have no idea if she did the same or not. What occurred after we separated with the intention of divorcing was, to me, post-marriage by any moral standard.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She will be glad to know that you can bail out of marriage and the paperwork and sleep around whenever YOU are not happy or feel that "It's over". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not even remotely; I'm not sure where you got that impression. I believe in trying to fix a marriage because of my commitments that bind my honour, not because a court hasn't officially declared the marriage dead. (And please don't bring religion into this, as it has nothing to do with me.) But, when my TBXWW said that she was through trying, in spite of my desparate efforts, that was the end. I do not treat my vows lightly, though you seem to have your own views.

However, I encourage you to self-righteously feel sorry for women that I encounter in the future, for as long as it continues to make you feel good to do so.

<small>[ December 31, 2004, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: reservoirdog1 ]</small>

I did address separation but let me make that more clear: I don't believe that couples who are separated should be sleeping around either whether they are apart 2 months or 2 years.If a person fails to make a committment to work on the marriage(as a couple)then file for a divorce,same can be said for those who are "unhappy" in the marriage and cheat instead to make themselves feel better or fulfilled.Separation just makes you separate.You cannot work on the marriage and make it better when you don't have two willing partners doing so.I beleive that Dr.Harely also suggests that separation makes you separate and advises against it.Just because there are couples out there that you know of doing it,doesn't make it right or appropriate.

Like I said,a marriage license is part of the "package" of marriage and commonlaw marriages also have to withstand the beatings of unfaithfulness,abuse,financial hardship,etc.If you aren't going to recognize/acknowldege this piece of paper that's your choice but it still stands as a legal document that signifies one's choice to be with that other person for life and all that that entails,not that it can't be broken just like many other laws,rules and committments that people fail to uphold.

I suppose we will disagree on what constitutes moral standards and I receive no enjoyment from "self righteously" feeling the way I do but I did feel the need to address what I think are sad and unfortunate consequences to such choices that do not support marriage,family or a healthy self image.

Especially for those who are members here,going through such pain and understand the concepts and go out and make this decision despite that.And for what? A quick affirmation from some stranger,an ego boost or sexual release? Then what? From all the time I have been here discussing these types of reactions,I have yet to hear of it not affecting at least one of the people in a negative way.

O

And,one other thought.

I would like to think that there is one day that anyone who goes through a D can say that they are truly over with their marriage,there is no chance to reconcile and that they are bound no more,legally,ethically,morally,mentally,physically and/or spiritually to the marriage and the spouse.That day to me is the day of a D.

If we do not agree to this being the day that we can safely move on to other relationships or sometime thereafter,I feel that it is setting a dangerous precedent when we think we each can make up our own minds when the marriage is over.When is that exactly? 2 days,2 months,6 months,a year before an actual divorce proceeding? Where does it end? What then will be our excuses for it ending in our minds? Does anything go nowadays? If a marriage is over when a spouse is unfaithful,why are there so many here willing to take their WS's back to have a chance?

O

Sorry to cause this strife. Octobergirl, I can see your point and that is why I feel guilty. I mean, if there was still a chance for my WW and I to reconcile it is probably shot.

I also understand reservoirdog's point of view as I feel like my M is over, why should I be a monk until the courts say I am no longer married? These things can drag our for years if there is a lot of disputing going on.

NBTH

Octobergirl,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If a marriage is over when a spouse is unfaithful,why are there so many here willing to take their WS's back to have a chance? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't disagree with you on that. Like I said, the marriage does not end just because one spouse breaks their vows. A revenge affair is still adultery. In the months after my D-Day, I was desperate to save my marriage. At that point, I would have taken her back if she'd agreed to work with me to build an honest marriage. But, despite my best efforts, she wasn't interested and wanted out. That, in my case and in my opinion, was the point at which my marriage ended (though I kept my vows until the physical separation).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> why should I be a monk until the courts say I am no longer married? These things can drag our for years if there is a lot of disputing going on. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's my view on it. To me, the end of love, commitment to each other and a willingness to build a healthy, happy marriage represents the death of the marriage. The court's final divorce decree is just the burial.

Ok,points taken guys.I hope this "debate" has not stirred any animosity(no strife in my view nbth but rather frustration at what I see as a problem easily avoided if we just make the right decisions).I just feel deeply saddened that there seems to be all these "loop holes" people are willing to develop to enable poor behavior.

I guess I really feel that my marriage deserves every ounce of my respect and faithfulness until the very last hour when I will give up my fight,when I am divorced.I think I will feel like I have a clear conscience if I wait this out completely.I understand that everyone has their own opinion,just like some have taken off their wedding ring in disgust yet I still keep mine on and will until I am officially divorced.

I don't know.I sometimes feel like I am so alone in fighting for something that less and less people around me seem to cherish. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Octobergirl:
<strong>I don't know.I sometimes feel like I am so alone in fighting for something that less and less people around me seem to cherish. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are not alone it just that many people not as vocal as you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

-rh-

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know.I sometimes feel like I am so alone in fighting for something that less and less people around me seem to cherish.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't dispair sweetie... I am with ya on this one! ((( hugs )))

If a marriage license is only a "piece of paper" ... so is a pilot's license .... and we sure do want our next airline pilot to have that little "piece of paper" !!! ~LOL~

It means something because it requires a commitment.... yes, "O".... you are correct. Our vows are promises we make to honor our own word!

We break our marriage vow (even if we feel entitled due to circumstances) we dishonor our integrity.

Peace in '05

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">However, I encourage you to self-righteously feel sorry for women that I encounter in the future, for as long as it continues to make you feel good to do so.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">??? Why did you say this?

Pep

<small>[ December 31, 2004, 06:04 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> To me, the end of love, commitment to each other and a willingness to build a healthy, happy marriage represents the death of the marriage. The court's final divorce decree is just the burial.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you aware that this is exactly the lie adulterors tell themselves to make an affair "OK". This is also the lie that many MM tell their single OW as the affair begins ---"Our marriage is dead. We are married on paper only."

This philosophy works as justification for starting an affair .... exactly as you have written it here.

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I feel like my M is over</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is probably what your WW said to herself as she was entertaining the idea of cheating on you .... food for thought

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> why should I be a monk until the courts say I am no longer married?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You feel as equally entitled to break your marriage vows as your adulterous wife. Congratulations!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> These things can drag our for years if there is a lot of disputing going on.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And, certainly your ONS was worth breaking your marriage vows for ---> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> .... or did you possibly lose something of value when you did that?

Pep

If we think of marriage as a 'thing' then it will be treated just like any other inanimate object we get ahold of. But if we treat marriage as the product of two people that love each other and made vows to one another, akin to a child, then marriage is no longer a 'thing' but a 'child' a 'loved one'. When a spouse has an affair, the marriage child gets infected with a life threatening illness that can only be cured by its parent WS willingly ending his/her affair and working with the BS parent to nurse it back to health. If the WS doesn't want to end his/her affair, the BS knows that each day the marriage child will get closer and closer to death. Does the BS parent leave the marriage child, like the WS parent did by having an affair since the marriage child is already doomed to die? Of course not, the BS parent will stay with the dying marriage child until the last moment before moving on with his/her life. When the divorce is finalized, the marriage child is declared dead. A grieving BS will take time afterwards to emotionally heal from the death of his beloved marriage 'child'.

The question we should ask ourselves is, do we consider our marriages 'things' or 'children'?

TMCM

My previous post point is that we cannot love and be faithful to a 'thing' but we can most certainly love and be faithful to a 'child'.

Thank you Pep and TMCM for putting into words what I was feeling.I WISH I could be better at writing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> TMCM,it is a very interesting analogy you used.I do feel like my marriage was something very special,something to be protected and held sacred.I may not be married anymore after the D but I will always look upon my marriage as something I am still a part of and is a part of me.It may die but it will always hold a special place in my heart.

redhat,yes,I am rather vocal about issues I feel a great deal of compassion for,I have always been like that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> Sometimes I think it scares people but I would rather be the way I am than complacent.The people that I encounter lately seem less empassioned about anything except self gratification.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To me, the end of love, commitment to each other and a willingness to build a healthy, happy marriage represents the death of the marriage. The court's final divorce decree is just the burial.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Are you aware that this is exactly the lie adulterors tell themselves to make an affair "OK". This is also the lie that many MM tell their single OW as the affair begins ---"Our marriage is dead. We are married on paper only."

This philosophy works as justification for starting an affair .... exactly as you have written it here. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Aboslutely, Pepperband, I am aware of that. The difference is that the WS, far more often than not, employs that justification while the BS is still blissfully unaware. Where the BS becomes aware that the WS no longer feels love for them, is no longer willing to honour their commitment, and is no longer willing to build a healthy marriage with them, and no amount of effort can shift that, then in my view the marriage is dead. The "piece of paper" I've referred to means very little without the love, commitment and willingness.

I appreciate that others disagree with me, and I respect their opinions. I simply don't share them.

It's amazing how my opinion changes on this subject. This afternoon, I was feeling like I didn't want to go because my WW hinted that she would be along and I felt sorry for her. Well, I started thinking how she was most likely lieing to me and called her mom's house around 9pm. Her mom told me that my WW left for home and that she was planning on stopping at a friend's place. I called that friend who said she hadn't spoken to my WW in several weeks and that she didn't have any plans on seeing my WW that night.

This pissed me off and I figured my WW was with her boyrfriend, which I figured would happen anyway, but the thought that she would continue to lie about just drives me nuts!

Anyway, I went from feeling a bit guilty to feeling, like "screw her! That lying cheating *****!".

NBTH

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Octobergirl:
<strong> Ok,points taken guys.I hope this "debate" has not stirred any animosity(no strife in my view nbth but rather frustration at what I see as a problem easily avoided if we just make the right decisions).I just feel deeply saddened that there seems to be all these "loop holes" people are willing to develop to enable poor behavior.

I guess I really feel that my marriage deserves every ounce of my respect and faithfulness until the very last hour when I will give up my fight,when I am divorced.I think I will feel like I have a clear conscience if I wait this out completely.I understand that everyone has their own opinion,just like some have taken off their wedding ring in disgust yet I still keep mine on and will until I am officially divorced.

I don't know.I sometimes feel like I am so alone in fighting for something that less and less people around me seem to cherish. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Octobergirl,
I understand and I am not trying to make excuses for my actions. I know what I did was wrong. I am not looking for an excuse. I just was looking for opinions on what action I should take at this point. I now what I did was not necessarily right, but unfortunatley I can't do anything about it now. I have to live with my decision to have ONS while still married. Quite honestly if I was done with my WW I wouldn't care, I wouldn't have a problem it's just that a part of me still hopes my WW and can work this out. Now we have a whole other issue to work through IF we get to that point.