Hi Bob!

Well coming from me, I would say that she is in denial. My experience is that if I don't think of it then the pictures of the OM aren't so, I don't know, I guess as 2long would say "Rat-meatish"? That's not all of it though but that's certainly what I have felt. It's very tough to own up to what I have done - though I have. Sometimes a little denial makes the pain less bearable? It's silly I know because the pain and the shame remains but sometimes it's what I have to do.

Also, conflict avoidance - ding ding ding ding! I'm facing that right now, both hubby and I are HUGE is mean HUGE conflict avoiders. Sometimes it's just not worth it, talking about the little stressors within a marriage, though I know it really is. I hate hurting him with stuff, though I know the only way to really recover is to speak up. It's a slow process but we are both working on it.

So what's going on through squid's mind? I dunno but I suspect what I was talking about above; conflict avoidance and denial. I think she will come around though, when she is really ready to face what happened, why, etc. It's a painful journey and it takes longer for some people than others I suppose.

Carol

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BTW this month marks 12 months of complete and total NC.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> That is ***WONDERFUL*** !!!!

You really are a success story!

Congratulations!

We just celebrated 9 years... can you believe THAT! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Pep

BobPure--I do agree that recovery is hard, like Pep says, hard labor, but no one can take that too long. It has to stop otherwise your strenght for recovery goes away. I think the talk, the tears, the grief,the anger , all that comes right after DD, but after 4-5 months of the same thing is just too much.

The talks about the Affair, the guilty trips, have to finish. There has to be an understanding that the couple really wants to work in the marriage. That the affair was forgivven. Of course once in a while, there will be setbacks until eventually nothing bothers the marriage.

I think your wife is just plain scared to opening up to you. She feels very guilty, feels bad about the affair. I am sure she struggles about not talking with you, but she is just not ready, does not feel safe enough with you to do so. Maybe she is not a talker, its difficult for her to open up! If your love for her is strong enough, you will be there for her, when she eventually will open up and tell you everything you are longing for!!

Myrta

Pep, thank you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I wondered if it was even appropriate to mention it. Sort of like I'm "marking" it or something. But I guess I should be proud, and I am.

If only some of the foggy spouses realised that NC works, works, works. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Jen

PEPPERBAND-I DO know what you are saying is true. But my husband, and I am sure Bob too,needs to hear these things about the OMs!! They need to be reassure over and over that they are better men than the OMs. I am sure your husband is wonderful, otherwise you would not be into 9 years after DD. But other men need this!!!
Sorry if I offended you with my comments!!!

Myrta

P.S. I do look at myself in the mirror and I dont
like what I was!!!

<small>[ January 02, 2005, 07:52 PM: Message edited by: Myrta ]</small>

Make that two pats on the back KiwiJ. Wish my STBX could appreciate this site for what it is. She still refers to it as Marriage Busters.

I think Pep said this earlier in this thread....
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Recovery is about the emotionally honest risks you and your spouse are both willing to take in order to really SEE each other ... not through romantic rose-colored glasses ... but through gut wrenching sharing, crying, and loving.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">FL...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i did a terrible thing today, i told him i wanted a divorce. so now exactly how am i giving him the security he needs. well obviously i am not. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tell him otherwise right now. I realize that out of frustration we sometimes say those things. But he needs to feel secure and above even that... see that you have changed in your actions.

<small>[ January 02, 2005, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: Tom Joad ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Bob Pure:
<strong> . . . and she is lovely and I love her. Why did she have to spoil all that by having a bloody affair ? WHY ?

Grr. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bob,

You were one of the first people here on MB to really strike a chord with me. I feel a certain connection between our situations and I have to say that your statement above is totally descriptive of my feelings. I love my fww more than ever, we are more affectionate, in many ways we are happier, etc. BUT, there's that feeling that things are just damaged..

The way I have to think in order to get past that is to realize that were it not for the terrible thing that has happened and the wake up call it represented, our M would probably be over by now, or certainly on life support.

My fww is beginning to see OM for what he was and that relationship for what it was...she told me last night that due to being off her AD's she must have been nearly insane..the guy was everything I know she is not interested in, country music listenin' - deer huntin' - jacked up truck drivin' redneck...

My bad times don't seem to come in day size chunks, more an hour here and there...just like a dark wave it will come over me and I am full of doubt, distrust and anger...then it will go away as quickly as it came. I can't wait for the time when those dark waves stop coming, or at least come very infrequently..

Bob, I think we both have to move past this stage. I honestly believe that we both have wives who love us completely, and who we love as well. We just have to decide to always communicate fully with our fww's in the future, to be the best husbands we can be and never to be so asleep at the wheel to miss the warning signs that are right before our eyes.

We both had crappy marriages prior to this happening, we both have an excellent chance at a better marriage than we ever had with the person we love. All ahead full I say!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think the talk, the tears, the grief,the anger , all that comes right after DD, but after 4-5 months of the same thing is just too much. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It depends on how long the affair lasted, and what sort of affair it was, and any other variables that makes each situation slightly different.

The AVERAGE recovery time is 2 years, not 4-5 months. Most recoveries go through a VERY rough time at about the 6-month time frame.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There has to be an understanding that the couple really wants to work in the marriage. That the affair was forgivven. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The affair cannot be forgiven until it is completely out in the open --> until that time, what is the one forgiving supposed to forgive?

The affair needs to be de-constructed, torn apart, and understood.

The WS is waaaay ahead when it comes to understanding the meaning of his/her affair... however, the BS is completely IN THE DARK until the whole affair is exposed to them ---> and should the BS be asked to forgive what is still (essentially) a closely guarded secret?

I think not. One woman's opinion.

Pep

PEPPERBAND- I am not saying that the affair should be forgivven in 4-5 months. Of course thats way too fast. But constant talks about the affair,after 4-5 months is tiresome, its repetitve. Yes, I do agree, that the BS in in the dark until WW talks everything. But I am sorry, there has to be a time , before 2 years, way before that those talks have to lessen and stop.
I have told my husband everything about the affair already. But he still has questions. he stills every once in a while comes with something new to ask. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> . But everything has been covered, and its overwhelming to have that as a favorite topic of conversation.

And.......this is MY OPINNION!!!Others can dissagree, but I can state my mind, like you do yours. NO?

MYRTA

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not saying that the affair should be forgivven in 4-5 months. Of course thats way too fast.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am sorry I am not being clear... the affair CAN be forgiven within the 4-5 month time frame, IF the BS knows all the elements that he/she needs in order to know/understand what he/she is forgiving.

I am saying RECOVERY takes LONGER .... irregardless if there has or has not been real forgiveness.

Myrta... I am saying this for YOUR benifit. You may be forgiven by your H already, but Stanley still asks questions because he needs to in order to process this experience.

Repeating questions does not mean he has not forgiven you ... it means he is still unsettled with the information and needs more time to work things out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But constant talks about the affair,after 4-5 months is tiresome, its repetitve.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, it is. So what?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I do agree, that the BS in in the dark until WW talks everything. But I am sorry, there has to be a time , before 2 years, way before that those talks have to lessen and stop.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And how do you know this Myrta? We (H and I) have been where you and Stan are still headed. I have the benifit of hindsight and experience .


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have told my husband everything about the affair already. But he still has questions. he stills every once in a while comes with something new to ask. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> . But everything has been covered, and its overwhelming to have that as a favorite topic of conversation</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Welcome to recovery. Tiresome difficult hard work. "I will do whatever it takes for as long as it takes to make things right" ---> the words out of my H's mouth (coached by the MC) ---> followed by actions that supported those words.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And.......this is MY OPINNION!!!Others can dissagree, but I can state my mind, like you do yours. NO?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Si, como no?

Pepita
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Myrta.... just making sure you understand something...

recovery

is not the same thing as

forgiveness

They are individual processes that occur on different timelines.

Pep

"Pepita" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> - Pep it almost makes you sound like a pussycat. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Jen

PEPPERBAND.. WELL, I DID understand something of your post!!

Pepita means "little nut! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Thanks!!

Myrta

Hee hee, little nut. ROFLMAO.

Jen

Pep

I come with silly questions every once in a while. Nothing Earth shattering------- usually a very minor detail that I need to fill in a gap. Sometimes Myrta is not receptive because she does not see how such a little detail could have any importance.

I also believe that when one discusses an issue many times then the sting or pain goes away and there is no need to revisit that theme anymore.

Regarding the OM:

The affair hurts like hell. There is no worse pain in the world and all BS know this quite well. It is not so much that Myrta's OM was a low-life. In fact he may very well be better than avearge. I have the feeling he does not have a criminal record, though we will eventually have to check. However, there are instances where OM seems to fall short to the BH in many categories and the BH clings to these discrepancies to feel better about the situation. Of course; insulting remarks to the OM resonate badly with the WW since they had admiration and love for OM. Myrta used to call my insulting remarks to OM LOVE BUSTERS!

I have told Myrta that what makes a person a great person is the ability to come back from the wrong side of the tracks and make a positive contribution. Myrta has grown as a woman whereas her OM remains in the shadow. Redemption has a lot of merit and that is why Jesus brought one of the thieves with him to paradise.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Myrta:
<strong> PEPPERBAND.. WELL, I DID understand something of your post!!

Pepita means "little nut! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Thanks!!

Myrta </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Takes one to know one Dear Myrta <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


Pepita mas grande

Weaver you said stuff including :I did not understand how deep the hurt and betrayal went and how unsure you still are regarding what is going on in Squids mind.


I honestly do not think any FWS or WS understands the depth of hurt and betrayal in a truly loving BS of an affair.

After all the execution of the affair was an intensely pleasurable thing for the WS, and some positive memoroes of that pleasure will perhaps always remain.

Squids affair came * this* close to taking everything I have including my life.

I am still shattered by it. I have times where I stand on the edge of the abyss and wonder what I am going to do, sobbing like a child.

It is miraculous that I am even partly functional: that ANY BS are functional after such a betrayal.

The realization that much of Squid's regret is that her affair never came to anything more or that it ended too soon is part of the reason for my sadness now.

My sadness is EXISTENTIAL and I get the feeling that Squid thinks I should be over it by now.

She does not seem to realise what she has done to me. After all SHE ENJOYED every SECOND of the affair right up to when I exposed to OM GF.

It KILLS me that she might still dream of him: of intimacy and sex they shared, or think of it positively.

It feels to me like my rapist is remembering my rape and smiling.

No BS has it 'easy' Weaver. NONE. I have stated many times that my situation is enviable compared to most BS, but know that I still occasionally wonder if my being dead might bring me peace I many never see again otherwise.

I have TRULY loved and trusted Squid with all my heart. We did NOT have a bad marriage, just a dullone and it was abject self-centredness of her that led to her affair. Sound selfish ? Believe me I have deconstructed everything I know about our R and her affair and I cannot take more blame than I deserve. That would be as unfair as giving Squid more blame than she deserves. But she actually told me on d-day she KNEW our M was stressing and she KNEWS I was asking her to work on it with me but she chose not to, she chose the A instead for HER. Fog ? A little but also absolutely factual and true.

I feel unbearably wronged and I NEED Squid to truly regret not only the fallout from her betrayal but the betrayal itself.

I fear that will never happen but that I am too proud to accept second place in her heart. Today its probably 70% that we won't make it because I can't manage on the meagre nourishment Squid is prepared to give me. Tomorrow I might feel more positive.

If it wasn't for my kids I'd leave today, despite loving her so much. Love isn't enough.

There I've said it.

So much for my sitch being easy, huh ?

Pep
you said Whatever insults the formally wayward says about their former affair partner is an equally valid insult that might be said about him/her.

There is no point to this type of revisionist history, other than to trash-talk the former affair partner in order to avoid looking one's self in the mirror.


I know exactly what OM GF thinks of Squid - she's told me often enough. Its one of the reasons why contact with her is so stressful to me. Especially when most of her words are so true. Squid DID, in effect, try to steal her partner from her and the father of her Son, she DIDN'T care for the upset she was causing, she WAS persuing more than sex with OM, she IS a silly old bugger who should know better at he rage. Also OM GF is as aghast at OMs choice of affair partner as I am with Squid's ( Squid is seven years older and a less 'glam' person than OM GF).

But, Squid does not seem to be looking at teh FACTS of OM yet.

He took his GF on a romantic week away during the affair and told Squid he was "softening her up so that when I leave her for you, the timing can be right" and Squid believed this !!!!!

OM Squid's 'soul mate' refused OM GFs offer of half of everything and full access to their son if he buggered off to live with Squid when I first exposed to her, he told Squid " the timing isn't right, I'll be here for you in one year or ten years baby". And Squid swooned with love and belief !

He checked into their cheap motel as " Mr. and Mrs. Bob Pure" so as to avoid any dirt following him home, and Squid seems to think it was a bit of an oversight on his part !

He hasn't worked in fourteen years to avoid mandatory CSA payments to his estranged children, but Squid believed his explaination that he wanted to " give something back to society by owrking for a charity part time". Meanwhile he sells 'chipped' cable boxes and counterfeit CDS and DVDs for pocket money. Prolly makes more than I do as he pays no tax.

He told me that each of his three marriages were to women taken by affairs from stable relationships, two of them marriages. Yet Squid STILL thinks she was the special one " because he told me he'd never loved any woman like he did me"...

I could go on and on...the FACTS are that OM is a nasty piece of work and she was played by a game player, albeit with her eyes open.

I just want her to recognise the FACTS. I understand that this can be hard form FWS because their self esteem is shattered when they realise the type of person they were involved with.

Squid once told me ( in fog) that OM was my complete opposite.

I have never been more flattered.

<small>[ January 03, 2005, 02:22 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

Bob,

That just stinks. I have no words of advice but I know exactly what you are talking about. My husband acted like he hated the ow at first and then he would say things like she wasn't that bad. She's working on her master's degree. I am also in college. And he had the gal to brag about her damn straight As. Who gives a ____! The woman jumped in bed with you on your second meeting!!!!

Sorry I am not doing good tonight. Just had a horrible fight with my husband and feeling pretty defeated at the moment. And of course I can't sleep.

Tiggy

Tig, remember to keep your arms inside the car in this rollercoaster ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I think I've forgotten how to fight. I am way too reasonable these days !!! All POJA , avoiding LBs, blah blah.A pussycat !

Perhaps I should instigate a shouting contest for once ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

{{{tig}}}

You , like me and Squid, will be fine ,mate. We're just on down rolls on the coaster. When things go well, we forget that the value of stocks can go down as well as up.