Bob, I posted a little comment to you over on Frank's thread on the Recovery Forum. I just wanted to say that I totally get how you don't want to live your life anymore being the accomodating one. Also that you want to have an honest M. At some point I hope your W realizes what she did, the consequences to you and your family, and lets you know she is truly sorry.

It always annoyed me in SAA that Harley says recovery does not have to include a remorseful S. Frankly if my H wasn't remorseful I couldn't even fathom continuing. I'm not saying that for some FWSs it doesn't take a while to get to remorse, just like the BS doesn't immediately forgive.

Have you ever told her outright what you are saying here? That at some point you will need her to kick in and be an equal participant in recovery? Also, have you asked her directly if she is sorry she had an A or does she still look at it as a great "love story"? H and I were talking today about if he ever runs into OW he would avoid her at all costs. I asked him if it was because he would have old love feelings stirred up, or was it because he really doesn't like her anymore? I need to really know that he's over her, so I ask these questions. Has Squid considered IC, or MC for you both?

Hang tough Bob. You have a lot of love in you, but I think it's good that you also know what you need for yourself. I'll say what I say on a daily basis. These As suck! CV

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What if driving your car, you ran over the baby in the carriage and killed the poor thing. Her parents are heartbroken and the whole family unit crumbles. You of course feel as guilty and remorseful as any of us would....but the parents keep stopping by to cry and show their grief and tell you how they feel about the tragic accident. Day to day, week to week. You so desparately want to move on from the tragedy, not think about it, and try to forget it because you are riddled with guilt and dispair... but you are constantly reminded about it. OH MY!!

PEP, WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT ONE?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, I guess you want me to put myself in the position of an accidental baby killer.

If I purposely try to "forget" what I have done (killed a baby) ... I think I am pretty callous and irresponsible. I think this is something that should never be forgotten. And, unless there is significant brain injury, would never be forgotten.

And if I manage to process the event, take responsibility and realize that it was an accident and this killing did not require deliberate planning, secret cell phone calls, and bald-face lying I would probably be able, after years of therapy, to manage some peace and resolution for the accidental killing.

However, if there was planning and secrecy and lying and premeditation on my part to kill the baby .... then it was murder.

Affairs are NOT accidental. And I think there is a different level of responsibility required when when the hurt we inflict was a result of planned activities that we knew were wrong as we decided to go ahead and do them anyway.

Pep

Bob,

I am not constantly reminder Squid of her affair. Wher did you get that idea ?

Sorry about that. I got caught up in my parable...which seemed so inspired last night but in the harsh light of day seems off base.

My FWW has shown much remorse. I would also be going nuts if that was not there. Not any SF or intimacy as yet. Her mother is in decline and we go to Colorado at the end of the month to help with the rehab of my son. I am taking a leave of absence. The A, and all that is wrapped up in it, has taken a back seat.

We haven't had any discussions about it for over 2 months. I guess I stuff my feelings and keep them stuffed. I have sad days and very sad days. Some days are happy.

I think am justifying my actions in my posts. I see your need to move to the next step. Someday I will be taking this step too.

Good luck to you my friend.

k

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">However, if there was planning and secrecy and lying and premeditation on my part to kill the baby .... then it was murder.
Affairs are NOT accidental. And I think there is a different level of responsibility required when when the hurt we inflict was a result of planned activities that we knew were wrong as we decided to go ahead and do them anyway. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tsunami----- now I get it---- when you put it that way!

CV55 said
have you asked her directly ?

Yes in the past and got " what do you want me to say ?". I said "the truth, please" and she replied " I don't know what I feel about the affair. I know that it wasn't worth all THIS though.".

I haven't asked her since " are you sorry for the affair?" because even if she said yes, that wouldn't be an apology. An apology starts with the conviction within to offer an uncomfortable apolgy, to deliver it and then to accept the consequences IMO.

I've never expected apologies in the past. Squid doesn;t do 'guilty and sorry' well. Never has ( with my help of course).

It must be tearing her up inside that she did me , the kids and OM GF & son so very very wrong. She doesn't have the tools to process guilt.

She obviously doesn't feel the compelling need to apologise to me else she woud do so.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by krusht:
My FWW has shown much remorse.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My FWH as well.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> we go to Colorado at the end of the month to help with the rehab of my son.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">((( hugs )))

Pep

PEPPERBAND--What you say in your post is very true. ONly if a person has amnesia or some kind of brain injury will she be able to forget what she has done. NEVER,NEVER,EVER, I will be able to forget what I did to my husband, but......I dont want to be reminded each day of what I did. There
has to be some "moving on" otherwise I would not be ever to live and make my husband happy.

There was planning, there was deceit, lies, etc, but thats all in the PAST!!!! Its time to move on and make the marriage a good marriage.
I know that you as a former BS, see us FWW as bad sseeds, that have to show remorse,have to do so many things to deserve peace in the marriage. We have to talk over and over, until we have no more breath about the affair.

I think I am doing everything possible to make my marriage a better one. But my husband looks like he is in slow gear here. He is always looking for "five legs in the cat". He examines, he shreds to pieces all my moods, all my expressions,everything. He paints this affair has a love story. He does, not me. He thinks I had the LOVE STORY of the century and that I am staying here with him, just out of convenience. Convenience for whom???
I am staying in this marriage because I want to make it work, because I love HIM. I love to remain married to him, but he is making it very difficult. Always questioning everything I say, post or do!! I am very loving to him, I pamper him all the time,I whisper in his ears(as per your suggestion) I do things that a loving wife should do, but yet.................I still love OM, according to him.!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

So, like you say,an affair with so many bad things involved, cannot be forget or pretend that did not exist,but there has to be a time that the BS has to stop questioning every single word or expression. There has to be a time that the AFFAIR has to stay behind, and not be brought up anymore.

Bob says that their marriage is better now, that they talk about their relationship more. That they open their hearts to each other and say the truths. So why does he want Squiddy to show that she is sorry every day? Why can a couple of times per week be enough? I think Bob and Squiddy love each other very much, but he is still so angry at her, because of the affair. And its the same with Stanley. That anger,resentment, does not let them move on and appreciate what we are giving them NOW!!! Different,new, but much BETTER!!!

MYRTA

Pep et al,

If I purposely try to "forget" what I have done (killed a baby) ... I think I am pretty callous and irresponsible. I think this is something that should never be forgotten. And, unless there is significant brain injury, would never be forgotten.

This reply is in no way defending my lame parable but to defend my addled thinking when I wrote it.

My intent was to show how a WS might feel if they were truly remorseful, ashamed and so full of guilt, that any reminder of the tragic event (s) rips open their wounds again and prevents any healing.

Of course it will never be forgotten, but hopefully the strong negative emotions it caused will fade with time.

Again, it seemed so inspired last night.

k

Mytra you asked :So why does he want Squiddy to show that she is sorry every day ?

I don't. I want her to say it voluntarily and earnestly once. Just once.

She has never apologised for it not admitted it was bad thing she did.

krusht***

No worries... I told you earlier I considered our convo academic.

Good luck with your son.

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Myrta:
I dont want to be reminded each day of what I did.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There will come a time when it will seem VERY remote to both you and Stan.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Its time to move on and make the marriage a good marriage.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YOU say this because YOU are ready ... and Stan gets to decide when HE is ready <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know that you as a former BS, see us FWW as bad sseeds, that have to show remorse,have to do so many things to deserve peace in the marriage. We have to talk over and over, until we have no more breath about the affair.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This mildly amuses me Myrta. I see you as a very wonderful woman, and not a "bad seed" at all. You are projecting thoughts onto me... !!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I am doing everything possible to make my marriage a better one.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But my husband looks like he is in slow gear here. He is always looking for "five legs in the cat".</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Myrta... Stan is actually doing VERY well. Compliment him on how far he's come instead of expecting him to be where he is not.

Pep

<small>[ January 05, 2005, 10:30 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

BOB PURE-- Are you sure she has not done that? If not with words with actions??? Sometimes actions speak louder than words. I think she is sorry she did this to you, I think she loves you, I think she knows OM is nothing compare toyou.

PEPPERBAND-No, I am not trying to put thoughts in your mind at all. But I had seen your other posts to FWWs, and they are kind of strong, mean sometimes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> . Remmeber when I just got here, I did not appreciate them at all. NOw of course I know better, I understand why you have to address some of us like that, but still, we did something very wrong to our spouses, But its the past,its finished, and its time to move on.
I do tell my husband every once in a while that he is doing so much better than many here. He can attest to that. But being a physician like he is, he has to analyze everything so much, he has to know all the whys,ifs,etc.of every word and situation. Its way too much anaylizing. It stops you from enjoying life, one of our daughters is just like him, and she is not a happy camper!!!

Thank you.

MYRTA

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Myrta:
PEPPERBAND-No, I am not trying to put thoughts in your mind at all.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then don't say I think you (or other FWW) are a bad seed, because I don't. I think it takes guts to end an affair and to face responsibility.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But I had seen your other posts to FWWs, and they are kind of strong, mean sometimes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> . Remmeber when I just got here, I did not appreciate them at all.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I appreciate any criticism of me you choose to offer , as long as it is based in facts. What I actually said, not what you think I think.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do tell my husband every once in a while that he is doing so much better than many here.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But being a physician like he is, he has to analyze everything so much, he has to know all the whys,ifs,etc.of every word and situation.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I noticed this too. He's a bit of a drama queen sometimes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> . This is part of his personality, and is something STAN needs to admit, and address the necessary changes he needs to make. Stan is the bigger threat to recovery right now. And this will require love and patience on your part.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Its way too much anaylizing. It stops you from enjoying life, one of our daughters is just like him, and she is not a happy camper!!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">((( hugs )))

Like Father like Daughter.

Pep

<small>[ January 05, 2005, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Myrta

BOB PURE-- Are you sure she has not done that? If not with words with actions??? Sometimes actions speak louder than words. I think she is sorry she did this to you, I think she loves you, I think she knows OM is nothing compare toyou.


Yes I am sure she has not apologised for having an affair, nor said it was bad; that she regrets or that she is sorry for it.

I know she feels guilty but thats not the same as being sorry.

The best actions she could perform to say 'sorry' would be to read SAA, work on my ENs and attend MC with me, yes ?

I love her Mytra and I am not being rough on her but she almost KILLED me with her actions and I need her to snap out of her lifelong aversion to taking blame and admit her fault in this.

God knows I have taken my blame and taken actions to fix it.

Bob, sorry to threadjack.

Myrta, You were Stanley's one and only since you were teenagers, over 35 years. Think of how much he HURTS to find out he was not your one and only. It will take TIME and patence, like JL writes, for Stanley to get over it. I think everyone else sees you staying together. You just have to Plan A Stanley for a while. That is more than just SF. It also includes POJAing how to get OM out of your family's lives.

Back to you Bob. How about telling Squid how you don't feel safe in the marriage since she has never admited guilt nor shown remorse? Tell her you FEEL that she is just there for a free meal ticket and not because she loves you or really wants to be with you. What have you got to lose?

BOBP_ I UNderstand you now. I am sorry if I did not see this before. You know what it is with her? Until I started to post here and read other peoples' story here, I did not realized how much damaged I had done to my husband. When I read his posts and JL's posts that help me understand him more. If your wife will come here and read, she does not have to post if she does not want to, she will be able to say those words that you want to hear from her.
She is sorry for hurting you and the affair, but she feels not need voicing that to you. She thinks its not important!! Try to convince her to come her and read everyones dilemmas,stories.

Take care Bob <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

MYRTA

<small>[ January 05, 2005, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: Myrta ]</small>

Myrta, unfortunately I don't know you and Stan's story, but I am happy you both are working on recovery. A couple of things stood out in regards to some of your comments. Realize the following are 100% just my opinions here.

You talked about actions speaking louder than words. Well over the past year my H in many ways has had very positive actions. He fired OW as soon as I insisted when I found out about the EA part of the A. She worked for another month, and it took him a month of phone contact to finally have NC. He immediately went into IC. We have periodically counseled with Steve Harley. We both know it is time to start MC and he is willing. And lucky for me he is very remorseful. However, he barely tells me he loves me. I believe this is due to his guilt. I am a verbal person and that is something I need to hear often. He has told me he's sorry many times over, and frankly there ain't too many times he can say it. He has not asked for my forgiveness yet, but he doesn't think I am ready to forgive him yet. This is true, but his asking should not be dependent on when I am able to.

Concerning the notion of moving on and working on having a happy life in the present. H recently has said several times something like he doesn't want to waste our lives anymore by dwelling on the past. My response is that's a nice thought, but for the 9 months of the A my life was taken away from me in many ways, and since d-day I have had to deal with the intense pain of betrayal. And of course there is the 2 to 5 yrs. of recovery time to look forward to. Something I wasn't planning on being a part of my life at 49 yrs. old. If we could all just move on wouldn't recovery not take that long?

Finally, the BS experiences PTSD. One of the ways to heal from PTSD is for the victim to talk about the trauma, sometimes over and over, until it loses it's power, and the feelings lessen. I don't want to punish my H, or make him grovel and feel guiltridden forever. But if I have to process the crap from the A, that he brought into our lives, I hope he has what it takes to listen to me, no matter how much it pains him.

Again, these are just my opinions on this subject. Bob, so has your W refused IC and MC? CV

Myrta, unfortunately I don't know you and Stan's story, but I am happy you both are working on recovery. A couple of things stood out in regards to some of your comments. Realize the following are 100% just my opinions here.

You talked about actions speaking louder than words. Well over the past year my H in many ways has had very positive actions. He fired OW as soon as I insisted when I found out about the EA part of the A. She worked for another month, and it took him a month of phone contact to finally have NC. He immediately went into IC. We have periodically counseled with Steve Harley. We both know it is time to start MC and he is willing. And lucky for me he is very remorseful. However, he barely tells me he loves me. I believe this is due to his guilt. I am a verbal person and that is something I need to hear often. He has told me he's sorry many times over, and frankly there ain't too many times he can say it. He has not asked for my forgiveness yet, but he doesn't think I am ready to forgive him yet. This is true, but his asking should not be dependent on when I am able to.

Concerning the notion of moving on and working on having a happy life in the present. H recently has said several times something like he doesn't want to waste our lives anymore by dwelling on the past. My response is that's a nice thought, but for the 9 months of the A my life was taken away from me in many ways, and since d-day I have had to deal with the intense pain of betrayal. And of course there is the 2 to 5 yrs. of recovery time to look forward to. Something I wasn't planning on being a part of my life at 49 yrs. old. If we could all just move on wouldn't recovery not take that long?

Finally, the BS experiences PTSD. One of the ways to heal from PTSD is for the victim to talk about the trauma, sometimes over and over, until it loses it's power, and the feelings lessen. I don't want to punish my H, or make him grovel and feel guiltridden forever. But if I have to process the crap from the A, that he brought into our lives, I hope he has what it takes to listen to me, no matter how much it pains him.

Again, these are just my opinions on this subject. Bob, so has your W refused IC and MC? CV

CV, you asked so has your W refused IC and MC?

Yes. Squid was scathing about counselling AND the books and study aids I have been using.

Initially this was because she felt what OM and she had was so special it transcended what can be described in a book.

Now I think it is fear of holding a mirror up to herself.

In preparation for my asking her to read SAA while I am in Vegas next week I mentioned the books again earlier and she said they're all cr@p.

I said " well without some of those books, you wouldn't be telling me your opinion now with a smile on your face" She was quiet.

I think she'll read it.

I am wondering if HN/HN, Torn Asunder or NJF might be better books than SAA however to leave ?

Re counselling I will look for a church-based counsellor when I get home from Vegas. Hopefully that will lead to finding us a new church too.

There are no professional ( secular) pro marriage counsellors in the UK

* edited for TERRIBLE typing !! **

<small>[ January 05, 2005, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

Good answer

Noodle