Well * sigh * we watche that 'wife swap' program tonight which caused a very deep discussion that led to Squid going to bed in tears despite my best efforts.

Good though I hope.

I had chance to run some fog babble by her which was the last info she gave me regarding her opinion of her affair.

* that OM was a better man than me in every way
* That kids benefit from divorce as OM says it toughens them
* that she had not even said the affaor was a bad thing nor that she regretted it or was sorry for it.

etc etc

Squid says " I shouldn;t have to tell you all that. You should KNOW how I feel."

I Say " But I need to hear you say some of that. I am not psychic, just like you told me a few months ago. I need to hear if you are sorry for your infidelity or not."

She said " you know I'm not the kind of person who can do that. I am a private person.".

I said " you're not the kind of person to have an affair either but all things are possible it seems. I ned to to help me with this to help us recovery . I have done SO MANY things which were against my instinct and personality to try to set our marriage back on a good course, can you not just talk to me ?".

I said I'd miss her and the kids in Vegas next week. She said she missed the kids when she went to Italy with OM in June last year.

I said " you KNOW you haven't said you missed me, right ? I KNEW the EA started there. Is that true ?"

She clammed up and sobbed quietly.

I hugged her said I loved and adored her but I needed to know her current attitude to the affair and to OM and me. I said while she was such a great Mom and good wife & friend to me she was in a safe place to admit anything. Only secrecy could be damaging to us.

She went to bed sobbing. I told her I was sorry that she was saddened by our discussion but that I love her dearly. I'll wait till she's asleep till I go to bed myself.

A much needed discussion but I DO hate dragging up uncomfortable memories and sensations for Squid. I need her to though. I NEED it. WE need it. I am proud of myself for not avoiding this conflict and for debating in a loving but insistent manner.

I love the girl though so very much. VERY much.

Tough night.

I love her enough to make her cry when its is required. You know how hard that is for a gallant man like me? I should have taken this approach years ago and there may not have been an affair.

Honesty, intimacy and love. I PRAY this works.

BTW I am MUCH happier. When I gave the example of babble about OM being a better man than me in every area she shouted " That's CR@P ! I would never have said that ! CR@P !! You only remember what you want to remember me saying. i would NEVER have said that !! ".

Now she DID say that BUT the fact that she so obviously disagrees with that statement now makes me very happy indeed. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Good for you Bob. There were times in our M that I felt like I was dealing with a boy. Now I want to know I am with a man. Squid is a grown woman. You can be gentle, loving, and maybe one day even angry, but you don't have to protect her from her feelings. They are hers alone. Hopefully she'll begin dealing with them. CV

CV I agree.

Its a 'feeling' that Squid is ready to deal with some of this now. Its not impatience from me - believe me its MUCH easier for me to live "in the day" of my perfectly pleasnat day-to-day life than to raise topics that I know will most likely upset the woman I love, but it has to happen for HER as much as ME.

She has to mouth the words she has so long feared to. Without processing teh message of her affair she might never be able to forgive herself. I love her far too much to have her spend her life closed up and writhing internally with guilt.

Lets excise the cancer NOW.

Incidentally, she's a bit withdrawn this morning but not sulking or dreadfully sad. I will REALLY butter her up when she gets home so she's cheered up before I leave for Vegas tomorrow early. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'm a bit scared as we enter this new phase of recovery - I still really don;t have a template for how o behave ( yeah yeah I've read all the books but they're all so abstract when my baby is crying , you know?).

All I can do is do what seems best for both of us in prayer.

When I was in England last summer walking through Hyde Park, a lady approached me saying she was from Channel 4 and was I interested in appearing on WifeSwap. I'd never heard of it and thought she was messing with me. So I giggled awkwardly, blushed and went on my way! So it really is a program - bet that one won't make it's way to HK!

TT, its bizarre, foul reality TV and absolutely compulsive viewing ! I HATE myself for watching it !

Last night a foul mouthed lush who was doted on by her Miner husband swapped with an utterly submissive , 'mindful' wife who took off her husbands shoes when he came in from work every night !

I mean...how do YOU think they both fared ?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

On a semi-serious note every single couple that appeared on that program was at risk of infidelity. ALL of them every week.

It seems only post-infidelity MB type folks deliberately invest in their M.

Have a GREAT day TT <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Bob Pure:

I'm a bit scared as we enter this new phase of recovery - I still really don;t have a template for how o behave ( yeah yeah I've read all the books but they're all so abstract when my baby is crying , you know?).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">FYI ... most women, at one time or another, use crying as a conflict avoidance weapon.

~~~ "See what you did !!! ... YOU made me cry! I can't talk about this because it will make me cry." *sniff*sniff* ~~~

Know what my mother-in-law said about crying ???

~~~ "These are tears, not blood. No one died because they cried." ~~~

Pep

Maybe you should read (again) what Steve Harley says about the state of intimacy. Because that's what you're in (in my opinion) when your partner starts crying. You'll do anything.. say anything.. promise anything to making the hurting go away. But that won't solve the problem.

Let her cry. Put your arm around her, hand her a tissue. Say "We'll talk about it later, honey."

* Pep, I know. Its always worked in the past but no more.

* BH, you would have been PROUD of me ! I hugged Squid, and said "I was sorry you feel sad - the effects of your affair makes me sad too but if we talk we can get over it. And I love you very much".

No backing down. I said nothing that involved hurt from me to her.

Squid hates it, but I am very insistent I will NOT avoid this most important conflict in my life.

* Sigh * I still wish I could get in Squiddy's head.

Our life's going well.

We love each other very much.
We are trying and learning to meet ENs.
Squid is very remorseful of her affair, and is ashamed.
We are coping with her Mom's impending death.

But she is still wooden in some ways.

She WON'T study any MB or MC stuff. "Just won't".
She won't open up her feelings to me if she thinks they will hurt me. For example today is the anniversary of Squids second f'ck with OM. She's been withdrawn all evening. Is she missing OM? Is it a painful, shameful memory ?

I can only guess. I feel that we need another tooth pulling Affair discussion like I last instigated at the end of February. She hated it, ended up crying and upset, but I got her to open up.

I won't do that while her Mom's so ill though. I just wonder why a fogless (or seemingly fogless) FWS cause themselves so much extra pain by not opening up.

I'm tired of seeing the bright side of undamentally [censored] gigs. Still, such is my calling for a while yet <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

just a small vent, I'll be fine !

[quoteFor example today is the anniversary of Squids second f'ck with OM. She's been withdrawn all evening. Is she missing OM? Is it a painful, shameful memory ?

[/quote]

That is a tough pill to swallow. Stay strong, this too shall pass.

BOL,

LM

LM, it hurts me less that I thought it would.

I had to realise that it just wont ever be undone. I have to accept it happened. The best medicine for it is that Squid loves me, and is very ashamed of her affair.

No punishment will compensate me, so I just broke my sword and got on with my recovery best as I can.

Its all anniversary trigger time for me in July. I'm planning some great family events to counteract them !

My guess Bob is she is NOT missing OM or having fond memories. My best guess is shame and wishing she could wash the dirty muck off of her.

{{Bob/Squid}}

I am still praying for her to agree to counseling.

Dear FF, I'll press for that once the sit with her Mom's resolved.

I think she feels bad too, but if so why won't she say so ? Her shame is an inhibitor to our recovery right now. Her esponse to her shame is to become paralyzed by it, not motivated to resolve it.

DEAR FF , you know as well as anyone on these boards ahow much I love Squid, but I tell you its hard to love womebody who hates themself and can't accept complements or romance.

Her shame is really ******* her up now.

BP,

You are at a place in life that many of us would love (or in my case, would HAVE loveED) to be at. Your pain and sorrow are all worth it. That is what matters. Today sucks, but tommorow will be better. Some people never get that tomorrow.

I think you are doing so awesome. I always root for you and the marriage to Squid. You have a clarity and an acceptance of it all that many of us may never find.

I am envious of you in many ways. Can you imagine that your life is what it is today consdiering where you were one year ago? Quite amazing, quite amazing indeed.

BOL,

LM

LM, I look at my journals now that I wrote a few months ago and I am humbled.

I had a M REALLY ***** up by Squids affair in a BAD sitch, yet recovered by baby's love and a good life.

I know how blessed I am LM. I truly do.

Still stings sometimes though.... In time I have faith that it won't hurt anymore.

Shame and guilt can motivate a man to no end, but it can stupify him into inaction, too.

I am guilty of this myself, at times.

I can't speak for Squid, Bob, but her lackadaisical behaviour is probably more related to her own self-flagellation than missing anything about OM.

At times there's no soap strong enough.(re: FF)

slh

SLH, you have a point.

Thing is Squids' 'self flagellation' and self loathing makes me feel more impotent and rejected than her affair did.

Study an ddiscussion helped me know Squids affair wasn;t 'at' me or even about me. I was collateral damage.

But for her to knowingly reject my praise and love by deeming herself perpetually unworthy..well...Its hard.

Its like my words are all treacly flattery.

I've told Squid that PORH won;t allow me to bull her. That I have no reason to praise her up and every instinct to bring her down, but she won;t wear it.

She just says " I am too lovely for her" and "She doesn't deserve me".

Yeah yeah, very flattering now WAKE UP AND SEE you have a faithful man who loves you and has forgiven you. Just acknowlege your lottery win and CHEER THE **** UP HUH !!!!!!

I'll get more radical when the sit with her Mom is resolved. Not NASTIER just a bit more confrontational in the self-worth department.

How can she ever change her terrible view of herself if she doesn;t learn about affairs and see her affair was a DEEP class 2 one, but was just an affair like millions of others ?

After the class we had in church this morning this statement jumps out at me. I imagine, bob dear, that this is exactly how Jesus feels about his children that deem themselves unworthy of his love.

Your love for squid is sacrificial and honorable.

Bob-

I am in the unenviable position of being the BS and FWW at the same time. I long to hear my H say he is sorry and show shame. He seems to just want to ignore it too. He apologized when he got caught and occasionally since. As I have come more and more out of the fog, I have had to come more to terms with myself and what I did. I told my H that I did not feel I could ever really recover from his A if I did not see him acting remorseful, following EPs, helping me through my pain, and doing his best to be a better H too (I am doing these things). I told him my biggest concern was -- If he is not truly sorry, then what is to prevent breaking NC or him doing it again with someone else? If we do not learn from our mistakes, aren't we doomed to repeat them? I wish I had some wise words, I don't. I can truly relate to everything you are saying.

Improving, sorry to see your sad and complex situation:(

We sure get ourselves in some mess don't we ?

Squid's ashamed alright. Guilty, ashamed, regretful ALL that. But its paralysed her recovery work for a month or more now.

I'll be patient, poor woman has a lot going on in her life right now.

All blessings Imp. You got a SACK o' mess there.

{{{{Imp}}}