I'm pooped - off to bed, its after midnight here in England.

Thanks for hearing me out friends.

Happy Independence day !

'night bob dear. Hugs to you and Squid.

Night, dear Bob.

Your beautiful Squid will overcome this, but it is a long and arduous battle, and not without much pain.

One day at a time.


slh

Bob-

Yep, we sure did a great job of really ******* everything up! Our biggest problem was believing we would remain as blissfully happy as we were when we got married. We had so many good years together, but, over time (with life and kids), we stopped meeting each other's ENs. In many other ways, we were fine, so we ignored the signs of trouble. As Dr. Harley states, we were the ones most at risk for an A. If I had known then, what I know now...

Anyway, I think giving her some time when she has so much going on is fair, but, I agree that at some point the effort and the changes need to be more mutual. You can't be the strong one forever!

(((Bob)))

BTW- reading your story when this mess came down gave me much-needed hope.

Bob, I reckon this is a tough one. If Squid were bouncing around, joyfully happy, that would also sting you. My WH had a huge emotional crash last week; guilty, unworthy, sobbing, etc. It came like a bolt of lightning from nowhere. (Not that the situation is resolved - far from it). However, for Squid it might be a more long-term regret, where the despair grows upon her.

For eg. Anyname and I have vastly different personalities and reactions to being a BS. She cried almost daily over two years. I've cried probably 10 times in all over 16months (apart from the gut-wrenching sobs at the beginning which filled about a week). I guess inside we hurt the same but our reactions are different.

Squid might well need counselling. I KNOW my WH does. He said the other day he'd looked up depression on the internet and it seemed to relate to him. Will he do anything about it? Of course not. He's stubborn as a mule and sees it as a failure. How could an affair that brought so much fun and 'happiness' in his life possibly be due to a personality defect in him?


Regardless Bob, I don't think you could be doing much better. TT

Bob...

Your thread here has always held a special interest for me. For years (literally), I asked to get "inside" my wife's head. It never did happen, but that's a story for another time. Please allow me some observations on your "sitch" based on my own failures (so take it all for what it's worth):

Absolutely, positively, no doubt in my mind...your Squid's "issue(s)" will NOT simply go away! I did (and you do) believe that wife had enough strength and wisdom to understand and resolve whatever "issue(s)" caused them to betray us. I thought it 6 years ago with my W's EAs, and I sense from many of your postings that you too believe that the actions of us (the BS) and our meeting our spouse's EN and being the partner that WE believe they want/need, will be enough. IT ISN'T ENOUGH!!

I implore you, DO NOT BELIEVE THAT EVERYTHING WILL BE "ALRIGHT" JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE DOING ALL THE "RIGHT THINGS"! It won't be. Your Squid's affair wasn't just about you, her recovery isn't just about you. Without serious introspection and absolutely thorough examination, her "issue(s)" will never be resolved. You mention the situation w/Squid's mum...I had that too. Followed by my W's dad passing, followed by this or that or something else. In my case it was always something that allowed ME to minimize the importance of counseling for US. All of which was just fine with my W, because she (like your Squid) was not inclined to pursue counseling (too many skeletons rattled in her closet on the few occasions that we did attend any sessions). OUR "issues" went un-addressed, un-dealt with, un-resolved. If you're at all familiar with my situation, you'll understand. WE never dealt effectively with the problem. It never went away (they never do). The "old pattern" replayed itself 4 years later with the most dire consequences. Please, DO NOT ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN TO YOU!

Bob, there could be any number of reasons why your Squid is reluctant to open up to you. For certain she understands how her "revelations" hurt you. They are probably equally painful for her. You MUST do whatever it takes to make Squid comfortable being open with you. Not only at the moment the discussion is taking place, but in the days and weeks that follow. She must feel comfortable with your reaction before she can begin to get comfortable with her own reactions and feelings with being open. It's a natural human reaction to avoid negative situations. Call it "conflict avoidance" if you must. Minimize the "negative" in the situation to whatever extent is possible to creative an atmosphere for openness. Don't make it a "toothe pulling" discussion.

You of all people here at MB (another big burden to shoulder...sorry), have the ability to pull "this" off. The solution and the answer to your questions are all inside YOU. Apply your logic. Follow your heart. Believe, REALLY BELIEVE, that you can help your Squid with whatever "issues" she has, and then help her deal with whatever the two of you uncover. But, you and she must uncover these "issues". DO NOT QUIT ON THIS. Getting her to open up is your Waterloo. Everything pivots on this.

One last thing...if you think this is a "[censored] gig", you definitely don't want to fail here. The alternative is a real "[censored] GIG"! Trust me, I've living it (and regretting everything I "shoulda done", but didn't do).

I sincerely wish you (and Squid) all the best.

Ron

Ron

Message received and understood. Squid HAS opened up a lot, but has closed up again recently as her mom got closer to death.

Squid has told me what SHE thinks her issues were: the reasons for her affair, and they seem credible. It will be a short step from that ( I hope) to get her to see an IC or a good MC.

I can't MAKE Squid more open,especially at this sad time for her. I can encourage openness strongly, but such will raise conflict at an existentially sad time for her.

Thanks for your care mate. Ihope you're doing as well as can be ex[pected at least <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

* TT, I know mate. I know. We're doing great, but Squids closing up again has been a backwards step and its a bit frustrating. Remorse is a good thing for a BS to se in a FWS, believe me. Theres even some satisfaction to begin with, butteh kind of self-scourging, long lasting self loathing that Squid is engaged feels almost liek a GESTURE to me.

DUnno.

I'll write that up mor eloquntly later. Have to take DD12 to school and get a blood test done.

later friends.

Hi Bob,

just wanted to share a few things OW (my ex-BF, as you know) told me after D-Day.

I once bitterly said that it was allright for her, that she had had her fun out of the A with my H, and now she could go on with her merry life as no-one knows what she did except myself and my H. She replied that that certainly wasn't the case, and that she felt the whole thing was like a giant stone she carried around with her.

About a month after D-Day she phoned me (no NC in place at that time). She was going to see her mother, who was undergoing treatment for cancer, and she insisted that I should say "I forgive you" for what she did, otherwise she wouldn't be able to face her mum. So she carried the shame for what she had done with her, even towards people how knew nothing of her A.

This was her second A (as far as I know, anyway). She had a fling some 15 years ago when her children were small - because she "wanted to feel what it was like to be in love again", yuck. That didn't teach her anything. Her H didn't find out, so she supposed that no harm was done and had an A with my H because "she was afraid of getting old" (46) and wanted to experience "hard sex" (as opposed to what she got from her H, who would never initiate sex because he didn't want to ever force a woman).

I just mean - the reasons for A's are really stupid, and any WS who comes out of the fog and can no longer justify them, needs to come to terms with their own self-destructive behavior. Counseling seems to be the only logical solution. After all, if they choose stupid ways in the past to "mend" their needs, that means they're basically not well-equipped to deal with stress/pain/needs. They need to learn how to deal with those things in a non-(self)destructive way, and that is a learning process. Not a process that ends with "I'll never do it again and feel so bad about it all".

I really hope Squid will go into counseling with a good, pro-M counselor. It can do wonders to talk to someone who will not judge you, but who will help you to build a better life and M.

Bob, I'm actually awake at 4:49 am because of you. If I'm still not ready to sleep after I post I'll pop over to my thread on recovery and explain why. Anyhoo, I happened on your thread and agree so thoroughly with both Ron and Brownhair. Ron, the only thing I have a different opinion on is that Bob can help Squid with her "issues". I have found with my H that some of these issues can be too deepseated for me to help him. He needed professional help to go deeper and still does. Steve Harley told me a year ago not to be H's counselor, I think because that is my profession and I've always just seen and understood things before he sees them. It was good advice. I don't want that job anymore.

Brownhair, what you talked about concerning the stupid ways the FWS dealt with "stress/pain/needs" and he/she must learn a way to deal with those issues that aren't self-destructive is a huge learning process. Not every FWS is up to that task. You are correct that saying "I'll never do it again" just ain't enough. CV

CV & BH, I agree with you both. I am not Squid';s counsellor - I'm not qualified, but I AM about the oinly person on earth she has truly opened up to about her affair. And it really hurts to hear some of that stuff, and I let her know.

Right now she is too ashamed to tell anyone else how she feels , yet loves ME too much to tell me what she thinks may hurt me.

I have found a pro M MC in the UK ( VERY rare) and just need Squid to agree to attend for us to go. Or for HER to go.

We have discussd what Squid belives are the reasons she had her affair, and they seem perfectly appropriate and are borne out by experts like Harley and Pittman. She hasn't just said " I'll never do it again, trust me" but has taken steps to prevent such. But needs more, better IMO so she can internalise this and move past her shame.

BUT thats like internet illness diagnosis. You may be right but you need to see a pro to diagnose and treat IMO.

Squid had become quite open with me until recently. Either this is because its the anniversary of so many horrible things this month, because her mom is likely to die this month and also som e'plumbing' trouble sthat have started to plague her, who knows.

She will only say " I'm OK" or " I don't want to talk about it".

She's mostly quite happy, but sadness and shame washes over her sometimes and thats it - her day is dark and stays dark.

I examin emy reasoning for my disquiet over this - I mean I guess ALL BS are relieved to see shame and guilt in their once-haughty and foggy FWS, but this is actually paralysing our recovery progress for now. And I am frustrated because I don't know what to do.

FWS friends have told me to expect such shame, that a year is a typically bad time for repentant FWS and I believe and appreciate their input. But I just wish I could convince Squid to get IC or MC. Or even read a book !

And yes, some of this is for my OWN selfish convenience - I've spent a LOT of time choking down and filytering this past year, and I had hoped such was behind me, yet hereI am again working to uplift Squid.

We had gotten so she was uplifting ME, the work of recovery was lighter for a while.

Ah well. I know I'm up to it.

* BTW Sorry I kept you awake CV <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Bob,

I hope today is better for you.

Dealing with her mother's impending death may be overloading her emotions. She will at some point HAVE to unload the guilt over the A or she will make herself ill and/or start to withdraw from you.

I had self loathing and couldn't look anyone in the eye. My counselling sessions (6) helped me get past that. But also, my BH and I have had to face a very difficult (non-A) family situation (inlaws) together and that helped me more than anything relax and stop hitting myself over the head every opportunity I got. It was us against the world again.

Now doesn't sound like a good time to read SAA or anything else A related for her. IC however can be a great help even if just to offload about her mother. I found it so much better to offload to a stranger than a friend....I had permission to say what I wanted, she wouldn't use it as gossip fodder and she didn't judge me. I would say I needed IC for many, many years but staunchly refused to go. I am VERY glad I did and will look into further IC and MC later (if BH will go with me...well that's another matter!).

Strong I can see from your testimony here that Squid's behaviour under the circumstances is not unusual.

I just wish I could encourage her to open up her mind to external help, be it books, or an MC/IC.

She's happier today, but still sad.

Thanks !

b0b.

No advice to offer, just saying hi.

Thinking of you and squid.

Alph.

My Grandfather became very ill in Feb 2005 - 5 months after NC , so still early on in the recovery....I had to support my mum who had been his carer (I'm an only child)....we watched him slowly die and it was heart wrenching and all encompassing emotionally. I cannot imagine what I'd feel like if it were my mother dying.

I felt panicked that we weren't focussing on our marriage but my BH let me be and supported me through it. I so needed that.....to feel loved and supported. Luckily for me counselling started soon after my Grandfather became ill which helped me through.....the major family crisis (in laws) happened at the same time and for a while I felt stretched beyond recognition especially as our eldest has a life threatening condition, she had just changed her medication and her levels were all over the place...school was calling every day and I had to go into school at least 3 times a week when things were bad.

What I'm trying to get across (badly it seems reading back!) is he supported me and I supported him....lots of ILY, cuddles and hand holding but no pressure on the relationship.

hey Alph !

I PRAY you have teh same problems i do soon !

That is having a loving, repentant FWS back home with you, with whom you are working to clean up the residue of the affair.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey, b0b

I see you are nearly up to 5000 posts!

That's a lot of typing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Alph.

Alph

1. I virtually took over the boards when I was in trouble, and as my boss gave me a months sabbatical off work last September ( God bless her!) I posted a LOT then.
2. I feel I owe it to MB to help out where I can
3. I am a gobshite ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

In truth, Me and Squid POJA'ed my time spent on here yesterday. She's unhappy with it, and I agree so I will not post here when theres ANYTHING else I can be doing with Squid, the kids or my job.

So I'll cut down a lot. As a GREAT MB friend said to me in an email, my baby needs me and theres an unending stream of new heartbroken BS, therefore never a 'good time' to quit helping out.

Tonight's karate night so I have a little time to type ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Bob

I was up til about 2:00 reading your thread. My wife and Squid seem to have similarities. Comments made by you,
Ron,
brownhair, CV55, and others seem to relate well with my wife.

For years, my wife was in withdrawl but never admitted anything. Finally last summer I went to see a psychologist and later saw my wife. He said my wife had something going on. An affair, a past sin, or some secret that was destroying her ability to be intimate. After going back to the psychologist several times and not saying much, she finally admitted to me that she was withdrawn. But said she had to do what she had to do. The next day, she backtracked from what she had said, explaining that she was only more independent than average wife. Since then (6 months ago), she has not said anything consist about what she did and her state of mind. Has never acknowledged all the verbal manipulations that she put me through and the incredible confusion I had to go thru.

Since then, she realizes that I need some fulfillment and has put effort into SF. Except for SF, she appears to have not put an ounce of effort into personal reflection and marriage recovery work.

Just like you Bob, I am living my life as "PLAN A". I always try to be encouraging, avoid LB, and do not get sucked into any arguments. She will not read MB type literature or engage in any marriage commitment type conversations. I express my feelings of how I am working on MB principles and learn from reading this forum. But she basically says derogatory things about the things I say.

I am realizing that fairly quickly, she will need to be an equal partner in fueling our marriage growth and trust. I think she suffers from some sort of "Sexual Anorexia" which is some inability to connect intimacy with feelings. With this, everything she does is "right". The is no room for mistakes. All things she has every done must be somehow rationalized as good. If necessary, any mistakes are to be heaped on me.

Similar to your situation Bob, long term our marriages will not work if our wives are unwilling or unable to accept their responsibilites.

Welderman

Hey Welderman !

Squid has improved her contribution to recovery all year and will no doubt continue so to do.

Her recent 'stall' frustrates me as we are CLOSE to having a real workable, sustainable life.

But there are extraordinary events at play that mean these are unusual times.

I can be patient again.

You said

Except for SF, she appears to have not put an ounce of effort into personal reflection and marriage recovery work.


That must be really hard. It took Squid fully five montsh before she threw herself into recovery, but one she did she embraced it.

She has ceased her independent behaviour, POJAs most everything with me, is transparent in activities, and is loving to me and the kids.

She has disclosed all aspects of he raffair that I've asked for, and has recognised the streak of selfishness and entitlement that has run through he rfor years and she is working on this.

Her shame has paralysed her progress for a few weeks now though and I think only MC or study can help her with that.

All blessings to you WM, that your W will contribut eto recovery fully soon.

Bob

I have to agree with you. Your Squid has progressed a long way and it appears that your marriage in well into a real recovery process. As you say, there will be bumps. I envy you, because we MB's can deal with bumps. MB has taught us patience and how to give appropriately.

My wife simply has not started a real recovery process. In her own way, she is trying harder but is not getting into her root issues. She's giving SF, but is not willing to come out of denial about her own feelings. She doesn't come close to appreciating my feelings. Very sad the more I think about it.

My wife always reminds me that she is a very "private" person. What this means is:
1. Does not let me know what she is really thinking
2. Does not say what her marriage commitment is
3. Is free spirit, feels very entitled to do and say what she feels is right for her
4. She is a Christian, says she is accountable to God. But she is not accountable to me.
5. Has "intimate" friends but they do not have the slightest idea of what really makes her tick. My wife has talked about leaving me but not a single one of her intimate friends would guess this in a million years.

Sorry for the highjack, but just wanted to let you know that your marriage seems to be on a good recovery path and your hard work is paying off. I pray that mine will follow your footstep soon.

Welderman