Mortarman,

I don't think you & I have corresponded, but I just want to commend you for your thoughts on the wedding rings thread by Danigirl. Didn't want to threadjack, so I thought I'd start a new discussion here. I hear so many times from people on this board who don't "feel" married & so decide to date while separated or take their rings off or whatever else they might do that is "un"married like.

This just burns my bottom. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I guess it just hits really close to home b/c 1) my former best friend had an A & moved her lover in while she was still married & her H slept on the couch b/c she didn't "feel" married & they had agreed to divorce but didn't have the $ to do it yet and 2) my H didn't sleep w/his OW until after he moved out b/c "it was ok then, he was separated". Didn't negate the fact that it is ADULTERY, plain & simple & like you said, you are married until GOD says you're aren't. Which, IMO, is death. That's what the vows say, that's what I stick to. I know this line of thinking doesn't apply to everyone, but I don't know, as a Christian, I just hate it when other "Christians" justify their actions instead of just admitting that they're not following God's commands.

Anyhow, care to comment? I guess I just had to vent. Thanks for listening. Anyone else care to comment? Uh oh! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <ducking> LOL I might get beat up here! LOL

Love in Christ,
Y

^

Standing,

Unfortunately, this only will get me started on a rant. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

But what the heck!! First off, I want to say that in Virginia, where I am from, it is a fault state. You can divorce for adultery, and there are penalties. When I originally filed for divorce, my wife wanted to say that I had forgiven her by letting her come home (this is true according to the law). But then she left again, and had one more time with the OM. She said that since we were separated, it wasnt adultery under the law. Guess what the court said?? The court said that in Virginia, you are married until you are not married. And so, even if you are not living in the same house (there is no such thing as legal separation), if you have sexual relations with someone that isnt your spouse, you are guilty of adultery!! Oh how I love Virginia!!

But the issue about Christians and morality is very simple. And we are all guilty of what you stated above. At least sometime in our lives. We try to do it our way, what seems best to us. And when we fail, we ask God to clean up the mess and restore us. When we had the answers all along and could have saved us the time and mess that we created.

Man did not create marriage...God did. To have man decide when a marriage is over is folly. Whether it be a judge, or the person in the marriage themselves. Sure, a judge can change things legally...but only God can divorce you.

God said that when you were married, you became one person. And only He can tear that apart. Now, what happens when you tear a living being in two? You kill it! So, if the two of you are one...then divorce kills that person of the marriage.

God allows remarriage for one reason and one reason only...death. And I can go into this to provide Scripture tha tsupports this. But, if your spouse dies a physical death, then yo uare allowed to remarry. And if your spouse dies a spiritual death, you are allowed to remarry.

In the case of a physical death, you cant just look at your spouse and say "you're dead." The coroner has to come and declare your spouse dead.

In the case of spiritual death, you cannot declare your spouse dead either. the Bible outlines the things that will cause spiritual death...with adultery being a lead one. But it isnt just adultery. It is adultery, unrepentant and continuing. Spiritual death doesnt come from sin, it comes from rebellion.

Some will say "what is the difference?" Well, if I have a rule in my house that my kids arent supposed to throw a baseball in the house...and they know about it. And then one day, when no one is looking, my son throws one and breaks a window...that is sin. But, if I am standing in the room and told him "you had better not throw that in here," and he throws it anyway...and also continues to throw it...that is something ENTIRELY different! That is rebellion.

Hebrews Chapter 10 tells what happens to believers when they rebel against God. We all sin, believers and non-believers. But only a believer can rebel. And it isnt good when they do.

Now, using the coroner analogy, the only way to know if your spouse is spiritually dead is to take it to God's coroner, which is the church. A Christian church is supposed to be about many things. And one of those things is rendering judgments in God's name. And the Bible tells how that is done (like I said, I can get these verses for anyone that cares). So, if your spouse is in rebellion, you go to the church, present your case...if they want to come and present their case, that is fine. but then the church will tell them they must stop rebelling, go home and be a good spouse. If they refuse, then that person is declared spiritually dead...and the BS is free to remarry.

Anything outside of this results in adultery. All divorce results in adultery...either before or after. But, if a BS has their spouse declared spiritually dead, then their "adultery" with a new spouse will be laid at the former spouses feet. Thus, they will be WS will be judged for not only their own adultery, but also the adultery by their BS caused by the WS. It isnt good!!

Too many people want to play around the edges with God. David in the Bible did that. He wanted Bathsheba. But she was married to one of his soldiers. So, David had this soldier put on the front line so he will be killed in battle. In the meantime, David shacked up with Bathsheba. In the end, the husband was killed in battle and David married Bathsheba. But God will nto be mocked!! In penalty for the murder and adultery that David did, David lost 4 children with Bathsheba. The penalty is high for rebellion!!

Like I said, I can go on and on...and maybe we can continue to have this discussion. But too many people want to play around the edges, or make it up as they go along. To make the rules fit what they want to do. But, we have no right to make the rules. They have already been made. And as God says in Malachi..."I never change."

So, the issue of the rings...of when we are married and when we are not...is all predicated on what He says. What man has to say is irrelevent. What makes a spouse who says that now they are separated tha tthey can hook up, any different than one that says, "Well, we were still in the same house together...but I was done with the marriage?" There is no difference. Just a difference on where they sleep.

We concentrate too much on what happens in the 70-90 years we are on this planet. And we forget about the eternity after that. This is all just temporary. We should be worried about what we are doing to prepare ourselves for the day that we will come face-to-face with Him.

Well, there's a start to this.

In His arms.

Mortar

You really know your stuff!! I can't believe the amount of flack I get from people about wanting to stay married after this terrible injustice has been done to me. These are christian people I'm talking about here that say "Get divorced...he cheated on you, blah blah" Well, IMO when I took those vows before God and my family, I wasn't just joking around, I was serious, and I will stick to those vows come what may. I have told my WH this in no uncertain terms. I said "We took vows before God, that doesn't mean that we can wake up one day and decide it's not working, 'til death do us part means just that".

I will tell you that before all this happened with my husband I was pretty lax about my relationship with God, and even doubted his existance at one point. He has made it abundantly clear to me....he's been here the whole time and I've been ignorning him.

I was really worried, and almost afraid to ask God for help when this first happened. I talked to a Pastor (which is now my Pastor) about it. I said "I've been married before, does that make my union with my husband adultery?" He asked me some background questions and then told me that no, it wasn't adultery, his reason being at the time I was married the first time I wasn't saved, and that my XH marrying someone else made my current marriage okay. It's probably obvious that I wasn't saved when I married my current husband either....otherwise I would have found out all this information beforehand, I guess the important thing is I AM saved now.

My Pastor said something that interested me the other day, he said "Mrs. Mc (he doesn't call anyone by their 1st name)you know what the problem is here don't you?" I said "I guess I don't" He said "You've been praying for the wrong thing." I said "What do you mean??" He said "What have you been asking God for in your prayers?" I said "Well I tell him that I am thankful for the time I have had with my husband, that I love him very much and am thankful for the time I've been allowed, and then I ask God to please soften his heart to me...to his family" He said "Okay, that's fine, but what you need to ask God for is to SAVE your husband, and ask him to let you be the vehicle by which this happens" I thought, huh....never thought of it that way, but if I pray for him to be saved, that would accomplish what I was trying to do to begin with. I had been going at it backwards. I was asking God to bring us back together, and then I was going to work on getting him to church, when if I worked in the opposite way, and show my husband that I am saved.... by my deeds, and was the vehicle for his salvation I would have accomplished the entire goal.

In my heart I know that this is right, that to try to save my marriage is what God wants. Alot of people think that's a crutch...heck even my own mother says "Caren, he doesn't want to be married anymore, you just have to let him go" and she's always been my authority on the subject. I honestly believe that this is what God has planned for me, that there is some reason that I don't know of yet, that I need to go through this, and stand my ground. I think that God will reunite my husband and I, and that the reason that all of this happened is because I was treating God like so many people do, like a spare tire. I kept him in the back, and only used him for emergencies. God is not my spare tire anymore, God is my steering wheel, my navigator, my head lights and he's definitely my fuel...without which I couldn't keep going.

Mortar I'm so glad you're around to remind me of things like when I was asking if it was okay to needle (or worse) the OP, I knew that wasn't what I was supposed to be doing, I know that's a temptation I'm supposed to be avoiding but I need to be reminded of that, I'm new at this (even though I was brought up in the church), and I backslide once in a while. You give me hope Mortar, and I thank God I met you.

-Caren

Caren,

There is a lot to your post...and all good. I wanted to break a few things out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will tell you that before all this happened with my husband I was pretty lax about my relationship with God, and even doubted his existance at one point. He has made it abundantly clear to me....he's been here the whole time and I've been ignorning him....I will tell you that before all this happened with my husband I was pretty lax about my relationship with God, and even doubted his existance at one point. He has made it abundantly clear to me....he's been here the whole time and I've been ignorning him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One thing I have come to do rather recently is to thank God for this whole mess. Does that sound deluded? Well, sure. But what I mean by it is that what you said here is so true of me, and so many others. Sometimes, the only way to get thru to us by God is thru our pain. So, do you think that this whole adultery thing and crisis in your marriage is about your husband? Or could God possibly be using this to better YOU, to draw you closer to Him? Without this mess, would you have done it on your own> Be honest here. I know that without this mess in my life, I dont think I would have ever come to the relationship with Him that I have now. A friend of mine asked at one point during this..."Is Jesus enough?" Well, He had better be in our lives. We had better get to the point that Job did, that we are ready to lose everything...as long as we have our relationship with Him. I honestly believe that a lot of my mess is due to God wanting to get thru to me. I also believe that the change in my marriage and our recovery now is due to the fact that it was me that finally got it...not just my wife. Once my relationship got to where He wanted it with Him...then the crisis ended. But I had to rely on Him completely.

One thing you said about the vows rings true. You talked about our vows being before God, for life. Look, God does give us an out. He says that there is one reason for divorce that he "permits." That is sexual immorality. It was a concession to us because He knew that in this area, there were some that would not be able to overcome it. But that is not what He wanted for us. He wants restoration and redemption. He wants us to respect our covenant and to follow Him. So, you can divorce, and He will allow it. But if you want His blessings in this, then you will follow Him. And His way is one of grace, forgiveness and redemption.

Your pastor is right. What I talked about before was when two Christians are married. Sin for an unbeliever is expected. It is their nature. But a Christian is a new creatue. Not that we dont sin. It is that we dont have to sin. We have a choice. We can follow Christ, who is in us. Before I was saved, I was just Mortarman. Now, I am Christ-in-Mortarman. And that guy is able to overcome sin, to deny the pull. That guy is a new person, distinct and different from my old self. When there is a marriage with unbelievers, then sin is expected. Once they are saved, those old sins are washed away.

In your situation now, I gather, you are saved and your WS is not. The Bible says that if the unbeliever wants to leave, then let him leave. but if he stays, then you stay with him and your relationship with Christ and your example will hopefully win that person to Christ. Thru your example.

You see, it isnt just your marriage that is at stake here. Your husband's eternity may just depend on what YOU do. He doesnt know it right now, but his very existence may just well depend on how faithful his wife is.

Did you see the passion of Christ? Did you see how, as He dragged his cross thru town...how so many spit on Him and denied Him? Even some of His own followers betrayed Him when He needed them most. But He knew that He had to go, He had to be strong for all of us. He loved us that much, that even in our transgressions, He loved us. Even when we were killing Him, He sacrificed everything. Because He knew that if He didnt, we were all doomed.

Caren, do not disregard the spiritual battle here. Satan is trying to pull your husband away because if he can do so, he may gain another resident of Hell. But right now, in that battle...God is using you as His agent in this battle, as His soldier. He has equipped you and He is with you. You have your orders...and you have to trust them.

This is life and death stuff. Let me ask a quick question here. How did sin enter the world? We all know what happened in Genesis. But, how did sin enter the world? It entered thru Adam and Eve's marriage. When Satan was able to divide Adam from Eve, and exploit their weaknesses...sin entered the world and we have suffered every since then.

Satan doesnt change his methods. Why should he? His ways of getting to us have worked for thousands of years. Why change now?

So, he got to you and your hsuband thru your marriage. But guess what? The Lord will confound Satan if you are faithful and trust Him. He will take Satan's carefully laid plans, turn them upside down.

I want to show a funny thing here if I can to illustrate how God takes Satan's plans and turns them around. And even how God has a sens of humor!!

In an African nation (I believe Ethiopia), there is a bridge that leads into a city. Everyday, coming into that city for work, the people would have to cross this bridge. And when they did they would see this Christian church with a huge cross on top of it.

One day, the Muslim leaders went to the govenement and told them they wanted them to do something about this. Well, the government didnt want to tear it down...too much backlash. So what they did was construct three 10 story office buildings on three sides around the church so that people could no longer see the church from the bridge...and could no longer see the cross on top.

But God does have a sense of humor. You see, someone screwed up. The three buildings were designed in a way that in the end, the gap between them (the space between the buildings) formed TWO huge 10 story crosses!!

So, what man means for evil...He can take and work for good. You just keep believing that. You keep doing what you are doing. Your husband's life depends on it.

In His arms.

MM,

Everything you said give or take a few things just validated exactly how I feel about M. I want to touch on a few points, though.

First, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But what the heck!! First off, I want to say that in Virginia, where I am from, it is a fault state. You can divorce for adultery, and there are penalties. When I originally filed for divorce, my wife wanted to say that I had forgiven her by letting her come home (this is true according to the law). But then she left again, and had one more time with the OM. She said that since we were separated, it wasnt adultery under the law. Guess what the court said?? The court said that in Virginia, you are married until you are not married. And so, even if you are not living in the same house (there is no such thing as legal separation), if you have sexual relations with someone that isnt your spouse, you are guilty of adultery!! Oh how I love Virginia!!

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My sister lives in VA. Maybe we should move there to be closer to her & because the laws sound great! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Now, onto the serious stuff. You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And if your spouse dies a spiritual death , you are allowed to remarry.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I never saw scripture pertaining to this particular item. I know that physical death separates you as a couple, but spiritual death? I thought that only separated you from God, not your spouse. In that case, a murderer, a liar, a thief, etc. would be dead spiritually & then the S could remarry. Is this your line of thinking? Or have I misinterpreted what you were trying to say? I personally interpreted the scriptures to mean that God did not intend for anyone to divorce except in the case of unchastity, not being a virgin when married. Then, if you divorced for any other reason than that, you would be committing adultery with your next spouse. I took the words of Jesus to mean that God only allowed Moses (a mere man) to create divorce b/c the world was so corrupt & people’s hearts were hardened, but that wasn’t what God intended when He created M at the start. I know a lot of people interchange these terms of sexual immorality such as prostitution, adultery, etc. but I don’t think that was the intention when the scriptures were first translated.

I do agree w/you though that too many people want things their own way. God’s way is very hard & the road is very narrow. There are many slips & falls, twists & turns, but it will be worth it when we think of the destination we are headed. David, oh, what an example of rebellion! LOL But, he knew the severity of God’s punishments when he disobeyed & he willingly accepted them. Was he happy about it? No! But he knew that he had done a horrible thing & he bowed his head & took his punishment for his crimes. What an example of one being completely flawed, always sinning, yet accepting blame, shame & admitting that he was one of the world’s biggest sinners (might not have been true, but true in his eyes). He might have been punished by God, but he was faithful to God & God took notice of this & blessed him despite the fact that he had rebelled so highly! What a wonderful God we serve!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What makes a spouse who says that now they are separated tha tthey can hook up, any different than one that says, "Well, we were still in the same house together...but I was done with the marriage?" There is no difference. Just a difference on where they sleep.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly my point!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We concentrate too much on what happens in the 70-90 years we are on this planet. And we forget about the eternity after that. This is all just temporary. We should be worried about what we are doing to prepare ourselves for the day that we will come face-to-face with Him.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Amen to that!

Love in Christ,
Y

Caren,

What an interesting way to spell your name! I’ve never saw it that way before! LOL Anyhoo, I wanted to share w/you that I felt like I was reading one of my OWN posts from last year! I don’t know if our sitch’s are similar, but the way we think is! LOL When you said, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I said "We took vows before God, that doesn't mean that we can wake up one day and decide it's not working, 'til death do us part means just that".
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was like, WHOA, I said that!

I told my H this many times. And, believe it or not, now after being home, H realizes this & even threw it back in my face when I had wanted to throw in the towel in recovery very recently. My famous line, “I said ‘For better or for worse’. I meant it.” H sees that now, but he didn’t then. He even told me that God would want him to be happy. He wasn’t happy here, so that must mean that we were meant to get D’d. His thinking was so clouded. He was really blinded by satan’s lies, but after 10 months of recovery, that cloud has disappeared & he can see the ways of God again instead of destruction. He knows what his goal is & he’s working toward it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In my heart I know that this is right, that to try to save my marriage is what God wants. Alot of people think that's a crutch...heck even my own mother says "Caren, he doesn't want to be married anymore, you just have to let him go" and she's always been my authority on the subject. I honestly believe that this is what God has planned for me, that there is some reason that I don't know of yet, that I need to go through this, and stand my ground. I think that God will reunite my husband and I, and that the reason that all of this happened is because I was treating God like so many people do, like a spare tire. I kept him in the back, and only used him for emergencies. God is not my spare tire anymore, God is my steering wheel, my navigator, my head lights and he's definitely my fuel...without which I couldn't keep going.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I could have written those exact words b/c that’s what a lot of people around me were telling me. I wouldn’t let them swade me though. I knew what God was telling me in my heart & I held onto that. Like you, I didn’t know what was going to happen or where I would end up, but I knew that God had my best interests at heart. He KNEW what I needed & gave me quite an eye-opener to see things that I would not have seen if this hadn’t have happened. I learned quite a bit from Restore Ministries . Your words sound like you’re a member of that site too. Are you familiar w/Erin Thiele & her work?

It’s good to see you have been saved. Hold on to God tightly & always remember to keep Him FIRST in your life. In my case, I had put my H above God w/o realizing it & I paid dearly. Now, I make sure to put God first, above anything else, & although my M is going through a bumpy recovery, it is better than most that I’ve heard about on this board.

I wish you the best. I’m not familiar w/your story so I must go back to take a look. God be with you, Caren as you take this walk on your spiritual journey. Get out your kneepads, elbow pads, etc. cause it’s going to be a bumpy road! Are you ready? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> It's well worth it!!!

Love in Christ,
Y

*Edited to add Restore Ministries website*

<small>[ January 06, 2005, 03:39 PM: Message edited by: StandingTogether ]</small>

I am glad God is so forgiving because I am definitely very flawed, I have an awful temper, I cuss like a drunken sailor (I'm working on that one...ever since I've been saved, I still catch myself swearing, but I'm aware I've done it and immediately ask his forgiveness and to help me try to stop it!) and I'm definitely guilty of hate...which I'm not very happy about. There has never been ANYONE in this world I have hated. I don't even like to use the word when referring to people, but the OW has brought this out in me....I definitely need to work on that.

I feel very strongly that what is going on in my life right now is for a reason, as I've stated before. I kept telling my Mom when she'd question me about why I was putting up with this kind of treatment, etc., that I didn't think that God wanted me to get a divorce, and coming from someone who hadn't been going to church it probably sounded weird. I have also told my WH, when we've discussed why I am so dead set against a divorce that it wasn't right. He said "What do you mean it's 'not right'?" I said, "Just what I said, it's not right...it's just not right". At the time I couldn't articulate it, and I hadn't been saved, but I knew it was monumentally wrong to end my marriage, and I can't explain why.

This is a total 360 turn from my normal personality, I'm usually a tough cookie, I don't take crap from anyone. Maybe I wasn't as humble as I should be ...... so this is making everyone think I'm nuttier than a fruit cake, because I was always the first one to tell someone to "F-Off" if they were doing something I didn't like. I'm sure I'm even surprising my husband, who has been on the receiving end of a few of those "f-offs", and now when I'm faced with this slap in the face, I'm not telling him to get bent, I'm making him dinner and trying to fulfill all these needs....he probably doesn't know what to think.

-Caren

Standing:

I haven't heard of Erin Thiele, but for some reason Restore Ministries sounds familiar although I don't know why.

Tell me about them.

-Caren

Erin Thiele founded a ministry for M's in trouble. It's called Restore Ministries and it's a website dedicated to helping people find God during the middle of a marital crisis. She believes that all marital crises are not marital at all but spiritual crises. That it is a wake up call to something you're not doing right w/God & that your R w/Him must come first. I have a link to their website in my post above so you should check it out.

Erin wrote the book, How God Can & Will Restore Your Marriage . This book was an eye-opener for me. It helped show me how I had failed as a biblical W & what I could do to become that biblical W, follow God continually & in the process, heal my M. Erin also believes like the Harleys that one person can save a M, through prayer. I literally prayed my H home. I also bought the book, The Power of a Praying Wife & prayed a prayer from that book every day. We also post these prayers on the Prayer Request forum & I joined w/other prayer warriors on this site & w/my prayer partner on Restore Ministries for our M's.

There is also a workbook titled, How a Wise Woman Builds Her House by the Fool Who Tore Hers Down with Her Own Hands . I saw that title & thought to myself, What? But it was true. I was shown the things I did to cause the destruction of my own household & what I could do to get my household back in order. I was shown how to submit to my H w/o being a "doormat" b/c that's not what submission is at all. Things this book covered:

1) Have you built your house on the foundational rock of Jesus? When the rains come (like this one BIG TIME) how will the house stand? Will it fall or will it not sway in the winds?
2) Is God the first love of your life or is it your H? Was your H put on a pedastal by you? That is idolatry. We are told to have no other "gods" b4 the one true God.
3) Do you have a gentle & quiet spirit like God tells us to have or are you loud & mean-spirited & always talking? Are you meek? God says the meek shall inherit the earth.
4) Do you always speak kindness or is there a lack of communication in your household? And when you do speak, is it full of insults, hypocrisy, judgments?
5) How to win your H back w/o even a word. Submissiveness & how that comes into play.
6) Are you contentious? Are you angry? Are you ill-tempered? This scripture really got to me, "It is better to live in the corner of a roof, than in a house shared with a contentious woman." Prov. 21:9. Have you been an annoying dripping faucet?
7) Are you respectful of your H, of others? Scripture tells us to be respectful. It does not show that we must be shown respect first b4 giving it.
8) Be subject to your H. Submissiveness. Has your H been the leader of your home or are you? Are the roles reversed? Does your H feel less of a man b/c of some of your actions?
9) Are you a helper to your H or do you take over as the leader & leave him behind?
10) God has a purpose for all of our trials & tribulations. We don't know the purpose but it is there.
11) Know what the Bible says about M & D & live by those principles.
12) Are your children unruly? Has your house become chaos? Do you have discipline in your home?

These are the questions that are explored in this book so it's very interesting. Check out the site & let me know what you think.

Love in Christ,
Y

I am going to restore ministries right now, Thank You.

-Caren

SD,

I wanted to respond to your questions of me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I never saw scripture pertaining to this particular item. I know that physical death separates you as a couple, but spiritual death? I thought that only separated you from God, not your spouse. In that case, a murderer, a liar, a thief, etc. would be dead spiritually & then the S could remarry. Is this your line of thinking? Or have I misinterpreted what you were trying to say? I personally interpreted the scriptures to mean that God did not intend for anyone to divorce except in the case of unchastity, not being a virgin when married. Then, if you divorced for any other reason than that, you would be committing adultery with your next spouse. I took the words of Jesus to mean that God only allowed Moses (a mere man) to create divorce b/c the world was so corrupt & people’s hearts were hardened, but that wasn’t what God intended when He created M at the start. I know a lot of people interchange these terms of sexual immorality such as prostitution, adultery, etc. but I don’t think that was the intention when the scriptures were first translated. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is actually a discussion about this on my thread that is running right now. So head there and read up...and then let me know what you think!!

MM,

Read your thread & I must say that I enjoyed the discussion that you & FH were having. I never looked at "death" like that. Spiritual & physical. Gives me something to think about. It seems as if you have done a thorough review of the deeper meaning of scripture. I have always tried to do that. I love the Bible study I'm in right now at my church. Our interim pastor started it around October/November & we started w/the book of Genesis & are now in Exodus. He has shown us such a way of looking at the scriptures to get a deeper understanding beyond the words that are written.

It would be great to start a Bible study on MB. I know they have the women's Bible study thread somewhere, but I never see anything posted on there. I tried to start a Bible study some time in late 2003, early 2004, but the thread slowly died. If we could keep an active one going, I think we could have some great discussion w/all kinds of different POVs. I have always tried to keep an open mind when reading the scriptures so God can show me things I was missing b4 or things I might have misinterpreted. To give me a complete understanding of His will.

I also want to add that I loved your post to Caren. It was so heartfelt & clearly shows your understanding of how to view our trials & tribulations. I know I had to get to a point during our separation where I had to be willing to give up my M in order to get closer to Him. I just love the story of "The Rope". Have you heard that one? How the guy doesn't want to let go of the rope in fear of falling to his death & he prays & prays & asks God to save him & God tells him to just "let go". The man refuses b/c of his fear & he dies. When the rescue team gets there, this man is only like 4 feet off the ground or something like that. I might even have the story twisted but you get the gist of it. I just love that story 'cuz it showed me that my H was my "rope". I had to be willing to "let go of him" in order for God to save me. I had to release my fears of the big "D" & just let God handle it. It's such a hard thing to do yet so necessary in order to receive the help that you're crying out to God for.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, what man means for evil...He can take and work for good. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, so true! I am a firm believer that God will NEVER let anything happen to us that He cannot turn into something positive. Satan tries but he never succeeds when God's on the other side pulling stronger!

I'm so happy 4 you in your recovery. I wish you & your W the best. It seems like it's "for real" this time. And I hope we can get others to join our discussion. This is very interesting.

Love in Christ,
Y