2L,

Hello, my name is CSue and I am a conflict avoider.

What I do now is write down what I want to say...
(Pssssttt...2long you're a great writer so you do it too!)

I either read what I wrote, or use it for reference during those discussions I'd rather avoid...Oh, and I do what Pep's husband does - when my emotions are more level I'm better detached!!

Pep Said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Hahahaha

I may be the only one who "gets this"


Pep (ROFLMAOSPIMP) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I got it, but I am not THAT old, so I am not sure.

2long -
The bottom line is ..........

You know there is a problem (at least one)
What are you doing about it, and what are you going to do in the future.

What's your plan -

My plan is to talk more - and I am doing it much better. Had a talk with my W this morning, and both of us where happy about the outcome - which is that we will both still make mistakes, but that we are committed to improvement, and the success of our M, so we agree to talk about things, and use the POJA to make decisions.

I find that much of what bothers both of us in MISUNDERSTANDINGS caused by lack of communication.

Someone has to begin the communications when both are used to ignoring the problem and hopeing it will fix itself.

Like someone said a few days ago - if you get cancer, and you ignore it, does it just go away?

Anyway, you already know all of this, I meant to encourage, not preach.

It really can get better, I promise.

SS

<small>[ January 05, 2005, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

SS:

Same here, only I have the non-response more often than not 2 deal with in my plan 2 talk more. It gets hard 2 want 2 ask 2uestions, knowing I won't get any kind of answer much of the time. But I do keep asking (without pushing).

2day, my W is happy, and she's really sweet when she's happy. We got our new stove installed. Now she doesn't singe the hair off her arm whenever she lights the oven like she did with the 1913 stove we were using before.

Sometimes new is good.

-ol' 2long

Yes, sometimes new is good, but when the computer chip on my truch went out miles from a good road, I was wishing for points and a condenser. I always kept a spare of those in my old truck, and put them in once, and it ran fine.

The mechanic says when the computer chip goes out, call a tow truck.

Out with the old, in with the tow truck. At least it didn't burn the hair off my arm.

SS

<small>[ January 05, 2005, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

I get the non response about 25 percent of the time, but I get even, I keep talking.

SS

My name is Thos and I am a conflict avoider. Hey, you lookin’ at me? You can call me Mr. Avoider!

2 long, I think there is something going around and it’s catching. My steam pressure is also unusually low. I notice maybe dozen members are suddenly posting from deep funks right now, myself included.

I attended an Al Anon meeting a couple of weeks ago. Guess what the topic was?

CA is a big deal in AlAnon meetings. Enabling Behaviors and CA. Perhaps 20% of the meeting topics over the course of a year. They are related, as you might guess.

I wish Melody was still around. She could probably write about this better than me. I’m still a newbie in Al Anon. But, the meetings are helping me. I see myself doing EB and CA a lot during the past 10 years of S_’s A. Actually, I see it in me for a good five years before that even. Hell, I see it in my dealings with my alcoholic mother and brothers since I was I kid. I’m the reigning expert at EB and CA.

For some reason I started becoming an EBing and CAing doormat about three years after we married. The more S_ seemed unhappy or argumentative, the more I avoided and enabled. Man, even I would turn out like her if I was trained as well as I trained her.

Anyway, I’m changing, slowly but surely. S_ is not necessarily happy about this new me at times, but things are going well. The problem is like we discussed on Dennis’ thread: these changes have a sinister side. The less I EB and CA the less I am happy where I find myself. I’m getting angry at myself. No telling where this is going to lead. So I intend to take it slow.

CA can be the evil twin of well-honed detachment. Why confront something you no longer care about, that no longer hurts you much?

Anyway, I agree with the suggestion to write it down. Make it a dialogue on your feelings, whatever it was about. Then openly dialogue with her. S_ and I learned dialogue techniques in Retrouvaille. It really works once you get good at it. Even if it’s just you that gets good at it.

I recommend Retrouvaille, as you might guess. It gave me the primary tools I have to not CA. Now if I could just get a Certificate of Courage from the wizard I’d be all set for Happily Ever After.

T

PS: The Astronomy Club here is monitoring the Iapetus probe. Do you conflict any with that team?

PPS: I get depends, too. Well, I mean I understand it. I don’t actually get any. Oh, never mind.

Thos:

"CA can be the evil twin of well-honed detachment. Why confront something you no longer care about, that no longer hurts you much? "

THIS IS RIGHT ON THE MARK! ...sorry, I should have warned you 2 put earplugs in before yelling that...

I'm starting 2 get angry with myself more, 2. And maybe yes2rday I was more angry than depressed about avoiding the conflict.

I woke up in the middle of the night obsessing over whether contact had resumed (or ever stopped). Reason/trigger:

My W was flipping channels, and an OLD Perry Mason episode was on. So we watched it. About a woman who was living separately from her jealous husband, hired a PI 2 hire a lookalike 2 stay in her apartment 2 be watched by her H's PI while she did what she wanted. It was a weird episode, and not at all well written. The H shot the W's PI, thinking he was an OM, and wound up in prison. The W apparently didn't have an OM at all, and just went away satisfied with the results.

My W commented "that's awful that he hired a PI 2 follow his W around". She still seems 2 really think that snooping is disgusting. I haven't done much of it (never hired a PI either), but if the WS isn't fortcoming with their own S about their "private lives", particularly during an A, what do they expect them 2 do, and why get upset if they decide they need 2 "verify?" ...interestingly we saw the interview with Amber Fry 2gether this morning, where Amber was asked if she would ever trust "men" again. Her lawyer[?] or whoever was with her said that she needs 2 "trust but verify". My W didn't hear what she said, so I repeated it. But I really don't know what she thinks of it.

I believe now that I've helped her avoid facing the consequences of what happened all this time. Am still doing it, in effect, by detaching. I'm also not so concerned what happens in the fu2re, and really don't know what 2 make of that. ...there are times when my internal reaction 2 something negative from her is "I don't care", and I want 2 find a way 2 maintain a healthy balance between the detachment and the conflict - I want 2 be able 2 address things when they come up in a constructive way, rather than react negatively, which would be worse than avoiding the conflict al2gether.

-ol' 2long

“I woke up in the middle of the night obsessing over whether contact had resumed (or ever stopped).“

Oh yeah, I identify with that. I am triggered all the time with these kinds of thoughts. Just yesterday S_ said she was feeling worn down with having to account for her whereabouts. My immediate reaction: What does she want to hide?

In the past I would have stuffed this inside me and stewed on it no end. Then lose it next week over some unrelated irritant. This time I asked her to elaborate. I asked, why is it hard for you? You have already agreed to rebuild trust for as long as it takes. She did not have much to say other than repeating her complaint. So, I suggested we dialogue on this feeling. We will probably do it this weekend.

Dialoguing takes about 20-30 minutes. We light a candle in the bedroom. Spend about 10-15 minutes writing down our feelings (no “I think,” only “I feel”) on the matter. A short prayer and then another 10 minutes reading and clarifying what the other wrote. It is also good to start the dialogue with something nice about the other person such as, “I really appreciated it yesterday when you....”

This is my way of trying to be constructive and address issues head on during recovery. But she has to want to participate. And she isn’t always willing. She is this time because it gives her an opportunity to express her frustration. And that’s good, too.


2long, what is your W’s ethical background? Does she at some level think A’s are OK? Is lying and cheating OK if it gets you something you want? Is using people for her own selfish needs OK in her worldview? Does she think of herself as selfish or just normal? Morals aside, a marriage is a valid contract. Is it OK in her mind to breach a binding contract is she just wants to?

Has she justified her A or just stonewalled?

In our case, S_ stopped justifying her A some time ago it and now says it was morally and ethically wrong. She still will not discuss the message of her A, though. This is a contentious issue for us. She is back to stonewalling on that point. She stopped going to MC and IC when we started addressing it.

T

I got the joke! Yay.

Uh, I am graycloud, and I'm a conflict avoider. But it's a mild case.

In other words, pain scares me, but if I have to get in a fight, I'll probably win.

Whatever that means.

Hey 2long, I'm a right-hander, but one summer when I was young I learned to play guitar. Now the fingers on my left hand can do things the fingers on my right can only dream about.

Just ask the women I've known. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

GC

Thos:

"2long, what is your W’s ethical background?"

She grew up with an alchoholic father. Her mom 2k 20 years 2 DV him. My W was a "Jesus Freak" when we met, I was a Christian Scientist. We "cured" each other of our afflictions. I consider myself a "spiri2al atheist", and my W has described herself as an agnostic in the not so distant past. But she's much more antagonistic of religions than I am (which isn't much at all, really, though I do enjoy a good philosophical debate from time 2 time).

"Does she at some level think A’s are OK?"

She did starting 14 years ago. Even said 2 me after d-day 3 years ago "I thought about DVing you back then, but figured that you wouldn't finish your PhD if I did. My only other choice was suicide. Wasn't having the A a better alternative?" No $h!t, she said that. I don't think she feels that way now. In fact, she said so pretty soon after d-day. She THOUGHT she'd ended the A 2 months before I found out, but she really only ended the PA. And since the A was mainly an EA anyway, the "threat", which she rationalized as a simple "private friendship", remained in full swing for another year and a half after that... ...I guess it's no wonder that I might have recurring periods of intense obsessing over contact, even if there's no compelling reason 2 do so.

"Is lying and cheating OK if it gets you something you want?"

Yes, only never put all 2gether in one sentence like that. 2 answer that 2uestion, then, I'd have 2 say she'd say "no." Breaking it apart:

Is lying OK? No, but it wasn't lying. My W doesn't believe in the concept of "lies of omission."

Is cheating OK? No, except that she "emotionally DV'd" me many years ago (I just didn't really know it at the time, even with the hints), so she wasn't really cheating. Similarly, OMW was a nutball who trapped him in2 M'ing her by getting pregnant (some 2 years after the wedding, by my calculations), then trapped him again by having a 2nd son. What a monster, huh? Can't consider that cheating on his part in those heinous circumstances, can I?

Did she get what she wanted? Yes. ...until she felt bad about being physical with him that last time and ended that. I think she felt bad and ended it when she did because we were had just had the fire at our house and were trying to rebuild (and were in our 2nd rental house in 2 months), and *I* was really rallying our family 2gether. Ac2ally, I'd been taking initiative with my son and doing things with him long before the fire started. But my W was 2 fogged 2 notice.

"Is using people for her own selfish needs OK in her worldview?"

During the A, very definitely. Now? 2 some dis2rbing extent, yes.

"Does she think of herself as selfish or just normal?"

She definitely insists she's not "normal." But she also has thought she's been outgoing and that people around her (her family) take advantage of that and keep taking and taking. She said she went 2 her 2 ICs 2 "figure out why she's so giving 2 her own detriment". It 2k me a long while - over 2 years - 2 stop avoiding my conflicted view of this and tell her, matter-of-factly, that she's the most selfish person I know.

"Morals aside, a marriage is a valid contract. Is it OK in her mind to breach a binding contract is she just wants to?"

Again, she was "emotionally DV'd," remember? Since D-day up until about late last summer, my W always had very negative things 2 say about marriage. The usual "I never wanted 2 be married" and other similar statements, but others, like when I asked her during one of these "anti-M" discussions, "So, you think the vows should have said "As long as we both shall feel like it" or something?" she responded "Yes, exactly." Good thing I wasn't fully detached at the time, and could see progress in her thinking up 2 that point, because I didn't "believe" that was anything less than fog-latin.

It's been a lot better since, with the recent exceptions cited above (which may be more in my imagination than anything, but aren't entirely baseless).

But:

♣ We have no "accountability" agreement. She's still appalled by the idea that she should have 2 tell me anything she doesn't want 2.

♠ We haven't had anything like the candlelight sessions you describe - she'd think they're silly and s2pid.

♥ She isn't seeing her IC anymore 2 my knowledge, and she said that my coaching with Penny is offensive 2 her (same words I used 2 describe her desire 2 be friends with OM). I had my last session with Penny in early Nov, though I still post the occasional update on SYMC, per her request that I do so. For now, my W's continued disgust with MBing or coaching makes even personal recovery via coaching pretty slow and protracted, so I'd just as soon wait for her 2 make up her mind what she wants 2 do long term.

For now, she's busy putting our house back 2gether and preparing for our D's wedding. We talk about the fu2re alright, so long as we don't discuss the A or the "meaning" of it at all.

For now, that will do. But I worry that I'll find a phone record or an email indicating contact has resumed or never stopped. If that happened, I'd really have 2 reign in my temper (which is pretty tame nearly always, ac2ally, so I don't know if it's a valid worry or not).

Basically, I wish we could vocally be on the same team all the time. We "live" on the same team and get along well. Just got 2 get past each of our fears of something bad happening, I guess.

-ol' 2long

2L,

I've been thinking this over -

I'm concerned on your behalf that your CA is dishonest in a sense. You're not sharing with her who you really are when you withhold information about your feelings on important issues.

Surely there has to be a way that you can state your feelings to her. Whether you do so immediately during the discussion or whether you come back later after giving it thought or talking from notes.

By totally CAing the discussion and withholding your feelings on important issues - well that's just plain dishonest don't you think?

I worry that you're stuffing your feelings, and in a sense your very being - by consistently CAing. Being a CA myself I understand the motivation to CA; but I have to say that since my marriage has been in recovery I hold myself to a higher standard to not CA.

Here's where we differ, I'm in recovery, and am not sure whether you feel you are or aren't. Maybe being unsure makes CA feel safer than disclosing your feelings...

I'm going to find Penny's very well written document on CA and post it here. She speaks far more elequently than I do.

<small>[ January 07, 2005, 09:51 AM: Message edited by: CSue ]</small>

All,

Here's Penny's article -

Musing on Marriage
© Penny R. Tupy August 20, 2004

Marital Cancer


What I want to tell you today is that there is an incredibly virulent
form of disease at work in your marriage. One that is every bit as
threatening to the life of your marriage as cancer is to the life
your body. The name of that disease is conflict avoidance.

Conflict avoidance, however, is a myth. The only way to avoid
conflict is to die – otherwise we simply postpone it. And then, it
tends to come back and bite us in the, well…… you get the picture.
When that happens, small issues that might have been worked out with
a little effort and creativity become much larger issues with added
resentment and irritation built into the mix.

Most of us don't really like conflict. It's a natural instinct to
want to avoid having to face it. Most of us don't really like being
ill either, but both sickness and conflict are parts of the human
existence – and as such – need to be addressed. Preserving our
physical health or our marital health means there are things we need
to just do, even when they're a bit unpleasant or even downright
frightening.

Let's take a relatively emotionally neutral subject and look at what
happens when the issue is avoided. Let's say Sally is married to
Manuel. Sally likes to spend at least an hour a day playing euchre on
the computer with a bunch of other women. Manuel's not all that
thrilled with it, but he doesn't want to rock the boat and raise the
issue with his wife.

Some of the excuses I hear for conflict postponement and that Manuel
give are:

"I don't want to hurt his/her feelings."
This is admirable. We should all strive not to hurt feelings. But
that's not really what's behind this excuse. What we're really saying
is , I don't want to face the possible unpleasantness and backlash
that might result in letting my spouse know I'm unhappy. Or, I don't
want to face my own feelings of distress that arise when I talk about
my desires that conflict with my spouse's. That's not kindness, it's
fear.

Manuel keeps silent because he fears his wife will cry and rant at
him and that their weekend will be ruined. It's a great strategy –
for her – she gets what she wants and he suffers silently. The
problems is as his irritation builds he'll begin to snipe at her,
making pointed little comments that will indeed hurt her feelings and
lead not to resolution but to more fighting and more disconnect in
their marriage.

"She has a right to have fun with her friends."
Perhaps. Depends on the friends and the sorts of fun she's having.
The problem is that when one spouse is having a great time and is
offending or irritating the other one in the process the marriage
takes a hit.

Sally does have a right to have friends. But unless there is an
understanding that friendships must complement the marriage rather
than detract from it, where is the line? At what point do friendships
decrease the quality of life by intruding into the most essential
relationships of marriage and family? Sally has a right to have
friends as long as her friends and her activities with them don't
offend or hurt her spouse or her marriage.

Avoiding this issue out of some misguided loyalty to a cultural
construct which does not protect marriages is a dangerous strategy.

"She's going to be really upset with me."
She might. And children are really upset when we deny them the latest
gadget or treat at the checkout. We all understand the need as
parents to set boundaries in the face of a child's upset, the same is
true of marriage. The difference is that as adults relating to each
other in an intimate relationship we need to work as a cooperative
team rather than as an authoritarian figure and a child.

Team work requires complete information. No one in their right mind
would think a task force at work could do its job effectively if one
or more members withheld vital information about the status of the
project. Doing so out of fear of one member of the team being upset
sabotages the efforts of the team as a whole and guarantees greater
upset all around. Conflict postponement.


There are things Manuel can and should do to minimize Sally's upset.
Going at her with guns blazing is not going to helpful. He needs to
remain calm and courteous and approach his wife with an attitude of
cooperation. Saying, "Your priorities are out line, can't you see
that the house and the marriage are suffering while you have a merry
little time playing stupid games," is NOT going to be helpful. It's
going to start a fight.

But, saying, "Gee honey, I know you enjoy your time with your
friends, but I'm lonely and missing you – what can we do to work this
out better?" is going to open a discussion about the time on the
computer, both their needs, and if they work together lead them
towards a solution which eliminates resentment.

"I've already told her how much this bothers me and she doesn't
care." Well, first, we don't know if she cares or not, unless she has
specifically said so – and even then we only have her word for it.
Additionally, feelings change over time and hers may have as well.

Even so, Manuel may be right and he may have repeatedly shared with
Sally his irritation about the game playing. In that case he needs to
reevaluate how he is sharing that information. The first concern is
whether or not he's being honest about his feelings and needs or
whether he's being rude and demanding. If he's expressing his
feelings honestly in a way that is courteous and calm then it may be
that he needs to do a better job of asking for input into change or
for change itself.

"Sally, I'm unhappy about the time playing games on the computer," is
a great start. Honest, calm, courteous. But it doesn't ask for
action. The next step is asking for input, "It's causing some
friction between us and I'm wondering what we can do to find a
solution."

If Manuel does all of that repeatedly over a period of weeks and
months – without losing his temper and without being disrespectful
towards Sally in the process – and there is still no change then he
has valuable information about Sally's willingness to protect the
marriage from her own self-interested actions. Depending on the
severity of the offense (obviously cocaine use is more problematic
than bridge with friends) he will need to decide what actions to take
at that point.

But, if he hides his head in the sand and never addresses the issue
of the computer games he will find himself becoming more and more
irritated with his wife. He is lying to her about himself and he
becomes the threat to the health of the marriage by not allowing her
the opportunity to make changes in her actions in order to keep the
relationship strong and on track.

Conflict postponement is one of the greatest threats to marital
health. Some consider it to be the greatest factor predicting
divorce. If you are concerned about being good to your spouse and
your marriage then you will put away a desire to `be nice' and
concentrate instead on being honesty and courteous.

Conflicted yours,
Penny

<small>[ January 07, 2005, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: CSue ]</small>

CSue:

Thanks for finding that again and posting it here.

I would say that my "feeling down" the other day was really anger with myself for being unable 2 break through the CA barrier. I agree, it's a form of dishonesty.

And this is also important: I was thinking about what I posted in response 2 Thos' 2uestions yes2rday, and I realized that, yet again, I let that insideous negativity - the dark side of the Force, Satan, pick your favorite demon - creep in while I was trying 2 intellec2alize the balance between detachment and CA-avoidance (CAA? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ).

I forgot the very important requirement stated by Penny during my last sessions: If it didn't happen and/or wasn't discussed in the last 7 days, then it's not fair game for discussion/complaining now. Period.

All that stuff I told Thos about my imaginings of what my W is thinking/feeling/doing are in the past. They're in my memories, and whether they happened the way I remember them or whether they're even true about my W at all isn't the point. They're imprecise recordations of past events. They're certainly inaccurate. But what's most insideous is that I allowed that demon of negativity take hold of my thinking and imagine all kinds of things going on that may or may not be - and the fact that I was letting the negativity take me over far overshadows anything that might be going on right now, or in the past week, or that we've talked about or not talked about.

So, I went through those thoughts on my way home from work. When I got home, I decided 2 change my evening habits - not forcefully, but moving positively with whatever flow was going on at the moment. One of the first things we did was 2 2rn off the Lobotomy Box. My W read a book (fiction, alas) and I surfed the net for kitchen options for our remodel. We talked about stuff we're doing at work and on the house. Light stuff mostly, but relationship-building nonetheless. I still have 2 take my CA by the horns at some point, but I will do so. I'm back "watching the thinker" again, like Tolle recommends, and will be wary of the negativity trying 2 creep in again.

-ol' 2long

2L,

Thanks for this info - you said;

"I forgot the very important requirement stated by Penny during my last sessions: If it didn't happen and/or wasn't discussed in the last 7 days, then it's not fair game for discussion/complaining now. Period."

I have a sense of why she feels this way; but would you clarify why she said this?

Well, those weren't necessarily her EXACT words, but I believe this is the gist of it:

*stop harping on what you imagine is going on. It might not be.

*stop dwelling on past mistakes.

*If you didn't bring something up and discuss it in the past week, Penny has nothing but your memory of the past to go on, and memories are flawed and stuff gets blown out of proportion.

*recovery is a dynamic process. My perception of my W's progress before a week ago (and certainly many months ago) might have nothing 2 do with her progress now.

*Kind of a waste of money 2 repeat myself session after session.

*Do my homework, when it's given!

*get off the CA stick and TALK about stuff with my W!

There's probably a lot more, or I'm on Mars or something 2day. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thoughts?

-ol' 2long