My signature tells the story in a nutshell. My wife filed for divorce right before Thanksgiving and I received a letter from her attorney about a month ago. The past 3 years have been a rollercoaster with my wife regularly hitting 'dips' in which her emotions take a dive. During these times things that I told her about my infidelities back when I came clean about them, play back in her head and torment her. This can result in her becoming ragin and almost always she has threatened divorce. She has been to an attorney several times before but never filed before. Except for this time, she seems to pull out of it after a week or two and some of our times in between dips have been marvelous (at least that's how I've seen it). It seems that often the dips are precipitated by suspicion about me, times when her schedule has been particularly busy, and/or if there is some other cause of grief/loss in her life. Now she seems determined to divorce me. She says she does not love me (and sometimes she tells me she hates me.) She does not want to talk with a counselor or therapist because she says her mind is made up and she doesn't want to hear from anyone who would tell her differently. I know that she has tried to forgive me but I don't think she has been able to retain the emotional side of forgiveness. It seems the tormenting thoughts keep returning. About that time it seems like the idea that any spouse who is cheated on should 'kick the [censored] out' (no matter if the [censored] is repentant or not) hits and she feels positively entitled to boot me with seemingly little regard to the ramification on our children, etc.... One big problem is that my wife has never been able to talk with another woman who has been through this and been able to 'get over it.' Apparently she has only talked with women who have booted their wh's. So I am reaching out here looking for a BS who can post something I can give my wife. Without forgiveness we are definitely done and probably should be. Will she be able to forgive after divorcing me? Is that the best I can hope for? Is it really possible for her to heal within the context of our marriage (assuming of course that I am doing everything I can to keep growing and meeting her needs). Or is there such a thing as an EN which is that you have a spouse that has never cheated on you and thus that would be an EN that I could never again meet for her?

Xscoundrel, I'm surprised no one has answered this yet!

Is the real problem forgiveness? Or inability to "forget"? There's a difference! Does the road just seem too long and hard for her? Has she expressed that she wants to forgive but doesn't know how, or if she really can?

I think most spouses have that EN and it's called "trust", not lack of betrayal. She'll never fully trust you again, but if you both worked at it as you should, the trust and faith could be built up enough so that you can deal with the insecurities in a respectful and loving way. In other words, you can get to a place where she is not always wondering when the other shoe will drop.

XScoundrel,

Have her send me a note at my email addy: faithfulwifecj@yahoo.com. As you know, I am a BS of multiple A's, and I might know how she feels. In my instance, I tried for three years to save our M, and it was my WS who refused to change his cheating ways and walked out. I DID NOT BOOT HIM!

If she does not want to talk to me via email, I'll come back tonight and write you a nice, long reply! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


FNCJ

Hi XScoundrel,

I hope a BW will come and post something positive for your W to look at but I can tell you as BW that it may not make any difference.If this has been going on for 3 years now and your W is still so conflicted then maybe she just cannot stay in the marriage right now.Coming from a BW POV it's just shattering to deal with adultery that it takes a herculean effort to get beyond it and it's no wonder many marriages don't survive it.There is just too much pain and betrayal of this kind is just the worst ever imaginable.

Have you ever encouraged your W to post here so we could talk to her? It sounds like your W is stuck in anger mode and can't get past it.If she has refused counseling then she will have an etra hard time trying to "move forward" on her own.But it's her choice and unfortunately it may mean the end of your marriage and family which is a painful consequence.

Maybe someone on the Recovery board can help post something for you instead of here where most people are all over the map.

I hope for the best for you and your W.

O

It is not wanting to forgive and move on, it is the loss of trust, and constant fear that it is happening again. All the triggers bring back the hurt and the rejection. For me I am less then a year in to "recovery" one that is not really a recovery at all- yeah the OW is out of the picture but H is not remorseful and does not try to rebuild, he just wants to live. SO I guess I am a bad one to ask. Sorry.

XS-- I haven't followed your story, but I'm wondering what has gone on since discovery, and how many A's we're talking about. I know how hard it is to face the fact that someone that you trust completely could have such a horrible secret and be able to hide it so well. We wonder how normal or safe really feels, and how do we know that we are getting the "real" you. It's so hard, and I think I will struggle with it forever.

That said, have you asked her what she needs in order to feel safe and build forgiveness? If my H had opened that door, and generously submitted to my express needs, I would be so much further along than I am. Instead, he assumes that my needs are the same as his, and does for me whatever he thinks would fill my ENs. Heart's in the right place. but he makes the wrong effort, because the right one doesn't feel natural.

For some reason, BW doesn't seem to feel safe, and therefore can't trust. If she can't trust, she can't forgive.

It's so obvious from what you write that you are sincere. I'm sorry for the heartbreak, and really hope the two of you can agree on what it takes to rebuild.

I've said it before, every day I think about leaving, and every day I choose to stay. I guess it's a matter of daily giving eachother the reason to choose to stay...

I hope this helps. --DT

Thank you for all your responses. Though certainly I prefer positive ones, ALL responses are welcome as long as they are REAL. I don't want and wife doesn't need sugar-coating but raw truth. Our marriage and family is on the line--if the marriage is unrecoverable, I want to try to accept that as devastating as that feels to me. I have been posting mainly in the Divorced/divorcing section though I posted back in the beginning (3 years ago) in recovery. I found much help here and learned about my wife's EN and set about trying to meet them. My wife told me today that I will be a 'great catch' now for someone. But not for her. She cannot get over my unfaithfulness. There is more of my story in posts in the other section including a couple of lengthy posts in this Xscoundrel on sexual addiction where I have tried to offer help to BS trying to understand their ws.

Hi XScoundrel,

Your post jumped out at me tonight. It has been six years since the poop hit the fan for us and although it has been a *very* rocky road we are in a much better, stronger happier place than we ever have been.

Something that I had to realise was that I had a job to do in this recovery in addition to the work my H did. Even now I am still working to make this totally behind us. Recently, I have been reading a book that has really spoken to me about what I need to be doing. I don't know where you stand as far as belief in God but I couldn't have come out the other side without His help. This book I am referring to is Every Heart Restored by Fred and Brenda Stoeker, Stephen Arterburn and Mike Yorkey. It has really opened my eyes on things *I* have been doing that are hurting my marriage. It in no way excuses my H for his actions but helps give me an idea about what I can do to get past it all.

I truly hope for you, your wife and your children's sakes that her eyes will be opened and healing can truly begin. I think this book might help her do that.

Blessings,

VL/Jodi

Okay, XS...you asked for it--you got it.

*******************

Dear Mrs. XScoundrel,

Your H (husband), XScoundrel, asked if there were any BS's (betrayed spouses) on our forum who had even been through and A (affair) and been able to get past it, and I'm writing to you tonight because I am such a person. Here's my story, in summary:

On Feb. 3, 1999, my H came to me and said he was moving out for another woman (OW). He had been seeing her for a while, he loved me but wasn't "in love" with me, and he needed some time to straighten things out in his head. Well, he promptly moved out-of-state and moved in with her, and we never heard from him again for 6 months. No child support, no calls, no visits....just GONE.

What really sucks is that this was not his first A. His very first A was with a hostess in his restaurant. He had asked me to marry him, and we were making honeymoon plans, and he asked to bring HER along with us "to watch (son)"--I should have seen that huge red flag, huh? They mostly flirted; I caught them heavy-petting once...I have no clue if it ever went any further.

The next several A's were people he met on sex bulletin boards on the computer. One Night Stands (ONS); sexual emails or chatrooms; that kind of thing.

The first BIG A was in 1989 when my daughter was born--and it was with two women at the same time! One was notorious for sleeping her way to the top--the other was a Married Other Woman (MOW) and he stole her away from her H and kids just so he could dump her. He was sleeping with both of them at the same time, and I literally caught him in bed with one. BUT...I had a new baby girl and he said all the right magic words and promises, so I took him back.

From 1989 to 1999, I think he had what I would call "mini-A's", meaning that he did not leave the family for the A's--he just would flirt until his ego was flattered...or take it so far...or do a discrete ONS... After all, he worked in the restaurant industry, so it was halfway normal for him to come home at 4am after the bars closed--and some nights he didn't come home at all! Other times, he would travel to other cities to train a site or open a new site...and he'd just "do his thing". Sigh.

In 1999, I woke up. I don't know why I didn't see it before, but in 1999, I woke up and saw it for what it was--a marriage-killing addiction. He completely left us; treated me like the lowest, most worthless dung on the planet; and hurt me in ways that I now believe are unknowable to him. When the millenium turned, he was with her and it shattered my heart...and you know, I believe there are only a few of us out there who really understand just how devastating serial A's are.

Okay...I woke up in 1999 and I found this place (Marriage Builders-MB), and for three solid years I tried to save our M. I learned out the concepts here--things that really made sense like the Love Bank, Emotional Needs (deposits), Love Busters (withdrawals), Plan A (being the person you were intended to be), Plan B (no contact, in order to protect what little love is left), and other stuff like "how A's should end" etc. Those things were REALLY GOOD for me to learn, because even though my H had no desire to understand, I sure did!!

The first year he was gone and having his A, I almost died...but gradually, really slowly, I did kinda come out of it. I got a job and got my kids taken care of. I was able to pay the bills AND get groceries! I went to individual counseling (IC) and a support group, and I started to enjoy life again. Oh, yeah, I was lonely as heck and felt like my heart had been ripped out of my chest, but I was healing a little.

The second year, he came back and said he wanted to try to reconcile. YAY!! *or so I thought!* What he really meant was that he promised me the moon but didn't want to DO anything. He didn't want to go to IC, didn't want to change, and didn't want to do any actions that indicated he cared how much I hurt. Mostly, I LONGED for him to understand how much I hurt!!!! He kept promising...I kept believing...then seeing nothing...then hoping...then bringing it up...then a HUGE fight...then he'd promise again, and I'd believe him again. AARRGGHH!!

I was so blind that second year. I wanted so much for him to do what I needed him to do to heal me that I didn't see that *I* wasn't doing what I needed to do to heal me!!! The third year I started to realize that all those A's tended to indicate sexual addiction, so I started going to S-Anon (which is for spouses of sex addicts). In that group I learned something INCREDIBLE!! I learned that I had been part of the dance too!! Okay, at first I was mad as he!! because HOW DARE THEY suggest that I was involved in all my H's affairs!!! But the more I thought about it, the more I realized it was true. He did the sex outside of M, but I had done stuff like try to "make" him stop...or "hide" his things...or "force" him to always do this or that. In other words, I took on HIS responsibilities AND I tried to control what he did or did not do. It's like he would dance this dance of secret sex...but I was his dance partner of pretending not to see it.

Soooo...year three was a weird one for me. I looked at MYSELF and not him, and I did not so much try to make him stop having A's--I moreso tried to make myself stop doing the dance. If he replied in a rage, I replied in an appropriate way and did not let his tornado suck me in. If he disappeared for hours, I did not pretend that it was okay with me -OR- pout for a week -OR- punish him. I found my boundaries and I worked on ME even when he refused to work on HIM. Now, don't get me wrong, I wasn't perfect at it. It's HORRIBLE to try to keep yourself on your side of the street when you just caught your spouse lying or masterbating or something AGAIN!!! Sometimes I would fly off the handle too (after all, I'm human!), but I decided that third year to detach from him and his choices, to focus on myself and how I had contributed, and to keep my efforts onto ME and my responses.

At the end of the third year, I told my H that I needed three things from him: 1) a mutually satisfying M in which some of my EN's were met too and with 100% fidelity. 2) Deal with his mental illness via drugs, counseling, psychiatry. 3) Protect us from his raging and abuse, and get into immediate counseling for the abuse. In a nutshell he refused. Flat out REFUSED. Within a week, I discovered he was having yet another cybersex A, so I told him I knew he was not going to change and that I did not want to continue to live with an unrecovering, mentally ill, sex addict. He said, "FINE...(explitive) you!" and walked out the door, and never returned. Oh, I take that back. He did return to do damage to the house, break in, scare us, etc. but he never returned to the M, and was never faithful to me.

So that's my story, Mrs. XScoundrel. Sound familiar??? Do you think maybe we have been through some similar stuff??

In his letter on the forum, XScoundrel wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...(when my W has a bad dip in her emotions)... things that I told her about my infidelities back when I came clean about them, play back in her head and torment her. This can result in her becoming ragin and almost always she has threatened divorce. It seems that often the dips are precipitated by suspicion about me, times when her schedule has been particularly busy, and/or if there is some other cause of grief/loss in her life. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can honestly say that I totally know exactly how you feel. It has been FIVE years altogether since my H's 1999 A, and still at times I have bad dreams about being unwanted...or see OW's face in his bed...or stuff like that. Those kinds of soul wounds run so deep, that I'm not sure if they ever, entirely go away. However, it also sounds to me as if there are maybe two things going on here. One, is that is sorta sounds like you don't really WANT to let it go, because if you let it go you would have nothing to hold over his head, and two if you let it go you would have to maybe look at yourself. Yeah, those old wounds remind me of a big, old, nasty scar. Sometimes, those old scars just ache because the weather is frozen or something--but sometimes those scars never heal over because we keep picking at the wound. It's easier to say, "Holey Cr*p look at this wound you gave me!" than it is to let the wound heal.

I do not know the whole story, obviously. I only know what XScoundrel has written, and that is entirely from his point of view. However, if I were sitting there in front of you I would admonish him: XScoundrel, the damage you have done is IMMENSE so for the future as you know it, you are going to have to be completely flawlessly open and crystal clear about your schedule, who you're with, how long, why, what you're doing, etc. DO NOT EVER under any circumstance be alone with a woman OR with any kind of porno period. End of discussion. There is never any excuse. And I would admonish you: I think XScoundrel sees that he is an addict, sees that he demolished you and his own family, and sees that the consequence of his action is death of the marriage. I think XScoundrel cares and is doing what he knows to do. If he needs to do more, tell him. If he needs to do it differently, tell him. And if the wound is just so deep that you yourself can not recover yourself, tell him. BUT...don't put your responsibilities on him. You are responsible for your choices and your actions. He may have been addicted, but you were codependent. Let him work on his addiction, and you work on your codependence and let's see what happens.

XScoundrel also wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...I know that she has tried to forgive me but I don't think she has been able to retain the emotional side of forgiveness. It seems the tormenting thoughts keep returning. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, to me is sounds normal for the tormenting thoughts to keep returning, especially if the deception was for a long time, and especially if he KEPT ON doing things that tormented. However, my guess would be that there is part of you that realizes he is a human and humans are weak and imperfect. So, some part of you forgives him, in that sense. It's just the "get beyond it" part that doesn't seem to be happening. Well, maybe you're not getting beyond it because every time you started to get to that point, he'd pull another boneheaded stunt (like not being where he said he'd be), and trust went shooting right out the window. Yep, after enough of those trust-losing events, you just sort of give up and say NO MORE!!! OTOH (on the other hand) maybe you can't get beyond it because you don't want to...because if you stop blaming him for your hurt, you'd have to look at yourself and realize that you are choosing how you feel. Either way, if you two are going to end up D'ed or together, do what you need to do to "get beyond it."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Without forgiveness we are definitely done and probably should be. Will she be able to forgive after divorcing me? Is that the best I can hope for? Is it really possible for her to heal within the context of our marriage (assuming of course that I am doing everything I can to keep growing and meeting her needs). Or is there such a thing as an EN which is that you have a spouse that has never cheated on you and thus that would be an EN that I could never again meet for her? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Forgiveness after divorce? It's within the realm of conceivability, but unlikely...and here's why I think that. If forgiveness were grantable, it could be done whilst married. Just because someone divorces doesn't mean that they deal with their issues or get more mature...so the same issues will be there no matter what the marital status. Thus, I suggest just forgiving now.
The best XS can hope for? The best, in my opinion would be continued personal recovery from sexual addiction; continued personal accountability and meeting attendance; continued personal growth and maturity; marital recovery; meeting spouse's EN's and having EN's met; and each one of you forgiving the other and living in the PRESENT not in the past
Heal within context of marriage? Well SURE! Mrs. XS can heal within the context of marriage, but the huge enormous questions are: 1) is she willing? and 2) does she feel too damaged to want to heal??
Spouse that never cheated? OOOOooo...this is a toughy. It addresses the issue of ILLUSION. See, the idea that Mrs. XS had before she opened her eyes to the SA was that the marriage was special, she was chosen, she was loved and honored, the family was solid, and that she and XS were intermingled "two into one". It was a fairytale, pie-in-the-sky illusion. Well, now the illusion is broken, the bubble has burst, and that innocence will never be recaptured. This is part of the grieving process, because if you two do decide to move on, it is going to be EMBRACING the fact that this event did occur and you chose to get beyond it. It's like a person who was raped...they will never be the same again. And lots of times, people spend YEARS trying to "just be the way they used to be" when in reality, the most healthy way to move on is to accept that you will never be the way you used to be because now you are different...something happened and it's different. Same here. Your M will never be "the way it used to be" because neither one of you is the same. You are different, and your new marriage will be entirely different.


FNCJ

FNCJ

Thank you so much for taking the time to write. What I am doing is printing out this whole post: my original, yours, and every other one as well. I am doing this because I am trying NOT to control or hide anything but give her just what has been written. It is in God's hands what will happen.

You wrote: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The third year I started to realize that all those A's tended to indicate sexual addiction, so I started going to S-Anon (which is for spouses of sex addicts). In that group I learned something INCREDIBLE!! I learned that I had been part of the dance too!! Okay, at first I was mad as he!! because HOW DARE THEY suggest that I was involved in all my H's affairs!!! But the more I thought about it, the more I realized it was true.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In many ways, in terms of recovery, the roles are reversed in our marriage compared to yours. I went into sexual addiction recovery right away, first with a Christian 12 Step group and then with both SA and SLAA. At this point I still attend at least 3 meetings a week, am working on my 4th Step, working with a sponsor, and make and receive phone calls daily from other guys in program. My wife went to one SA/S-Anon Open Meeting back in October 2002. For a while I encouraged her to check out S-Anon but got negative responses ("this is YOUR problem, not mine.") so, for the sake of my own sobriety (and because I can have codependent tendencies also), I backed off and have hoped and prayed for her to make that choice on her own. Whatever happens in the future, I am incredibly grateful for the opportunity to be in recovery. We live in a city that has very strong S-group fellowships.

You also wrote: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">so for the future as you know it, you are going to have to be completely flawlessly open and crystal clear about your schedule, who you're with, how long, why, what you're doing, etc. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have been doing this for the last 3 years and I do have to admit that I was really tiring of it and said so. Actually, I was so much tiring of giving account as of it not seeming to make any difference. There have been SO MANY times in the last 3 years where she thought she caught me in a contradiction or cover-up or lie and practically every time, I either was able to produce solid evidence of what I was saying or something else happened to show I had been telling the truth. Every time I thought that I would get some trust 'points' in my ledger but it wouldn't happen. Her attitude always seemed to be: "well, you should be glad you weren't doing anything wrong and you better keep on" or "well, I didn't catch you THIS time." EVERY time when we would be preparing to be intimate, she would ask me "have you been with anyone else?" FEARS have tormented my wife. The program includes men whose acting out has been with other men. Although I went into the program with a fairly judgmental view of gays, I have learned that some are men who are working very good programs, living with integrity, honesty, and courage. When I've told this to my wife, she starts asking me if I'm messing around with men now! THAT has never been part of my acting out and is totally repulsive to me. Disease has also been a big fear for her even though I was tested and found clean. Before things took the dive right before Thanksgiving, she had gotten to the point of insisting that I wear protection if we were going to be intimate. Again, I realize now I let myself feel insulted by this. When I asked why and she told me she feared I might give her AIDS, I told her that if she thought that, we shouldn't be intimate at all (now I guess I got my wish, huh?).

When I read that your husband left for good, my heart sank. I have to tell you something that has tormented me a bit since I've been reading posts here at MB. This is by no means scientific, but my observations have been:
</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BS whose WS don't end affairs or go into recovery are the BS who want and try to save their marriages.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BS whose WS end affairs and go into recovery are the BS who seem to not want or try to save their marriages.</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Maybe this is just my cynical side. I think my wife will read your story and think "what is wrong with that woman that she didn't get rid of that cheating [censored] from the beginning?" I hope I'm wrong about that but that is part of her struggle. Part of her says that she hasn't talked to any BW who has recovered and part of it is that she won't take any steps to talk to women like that because she presumes there is something wrong with them to really forgive and restore a WH after he has cheated (let alone if he continues cheating).

SOMETIMES, I wonder: why am I trying to save this marriage with a woman who says she doesn't love me, who has threatened me with divorce throughout our marriage (sometimes with good provocation from me and sometimes not), who has always struggled with forgiveness and judgmentalism but doesn't see it at all, who has always struggled to meet my top ENs for SF, recreational companionship, and affection? Why? What is wrong with ME that I feel so sad and devastated at the looming loss of this marriage? Yes, my kids are a big part of the answer but certainly not the whole. I love my wife (at least as I understand love). Not because she keeps my love tank full but simply because of the numerous moments we've shared where I looked at her and thanked God in my heart that she was my partner in life. Oh yes, there have been many other moments when I've complained to God that she didn't feel much like a partner but I seem only to be able to think of the former and not the latter. What is wrong with me?

I long for my wife to be healed of her pain. I know it goes back to her own father and did not originate with me but that is something she just won't allow herself to see. It is something I will regret the rest of my life that I have added some much to her pain (I want to add here that I periodically was a physical abuser to her during the first 5 years of our marriage--it is so hard for me to even write that here as I am so ashamed of that....by God's grace I stopped and have never repeated that since). As I have began to come to terms with aging (both mine and hers), my dream is that we would do that together, looking out for one another as we seek to fight back the ravages of aging while still steadily losing ground to it...and ultimately, one day, one of us coming to the end with, hopefully, the other one there to witness this passage and then go on with memories of love and closeness that fill them with gratefulness even in the grief of loss. I know I am writing way too idealistically and speculatively but it has been my thought that I aspire to have some of that kind of attitude should this divorce come to pass.

There's plenty of us BS over on the recovery board.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> One big problem is that my wife has never been able to talk with another woman who has been through this and been able to 'get over it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We don't "get over it"..but we CAN move past it. But I'll be the very FIRST to tell you it can NOT be done alone. You need a support network...because from ONE BS to another.... NOBODY....NOBODY...KNOWS WHAT THEY WOULD DO ..UNTIL THEY'VE ARRIVED HERE. It's all fine and good to say...If my H EVER cheated on me..he would be SO gone....but if that day shows up on your doorstep...well...things change.

There are a lot of dynamics that need to be addressed. Although your infidelity is totally YOUR fault...your wife obviously has created this marriage as it is today. It's not in this state solely from your own actions.

She CAN learn to trust again. What actions are you taking to eleviate her suspicions ? I sure wish she'd post...or email one of us. She sounds like she could use some support as well.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> part of it is that she won't take any steps to talk to women like that because she presumes there is something wrong with them to really forgive and restore a WH after he has cheated </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">interesting POV..but I'd like to think I'm pretty stable. I can give you reasons I decided to work out the issues, and reasons I wanted to walk away.

My knee jerk reaction.... is a revenge A. Just seems some of the stuff coming out is FOG talk...classic in many ways. It's a possibility you know. Have you ever considered this as a possible problem ???

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by XScoundrel:

Disease has also been a big fear for her even though I was tested and found clean. Before things took the dive right before Thanksgiving, she had gotten to the point of insisting that I wear protection if we were going to be intimate. Again, I realize now I let myself feel insulted by this. When I asked why and she told me she feared I might give her AIDS, I told her that if she thought that, we shouldn't be intimate at all (now I guess I got my wish, huh?).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oy-vey! How many times are you going to shoot yourself in the foot?

I am a nurse practitioner... and if your W were my patient, I would have counseled her to insist on protection ... her request was totally legitimate even if your tests have been negaitve SO FAR her responsibility is to protect herself ....

Imagine one of your daughters requested her boyfriend wear protection... don't you think that is a good thing??? especially if the boyfriend had been fooling around???

I hope you have apologized to your wife for your response... have you?

Good luck, I hope your family can survive this.

Pep

<small>[ January 05, 2005, 09:54 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

This particular bit of advice may be a little late in coming..but if you wish to procede in the future..give it some thought.

You have betrayed your wife..you have failed to protect her from harm..worse..you caused the harm..over and over again. It's probably safe to say that not only does she no longer trust you she also probably does not trust herself to make accurate judgements about you.

I did the same you know..I worried about STDs even after the tests were clean..and because I myself had not had enough time to sort out my motives for wishing H would wear a condom..I definitely was dissappointed when he took offense at the suggestion.

My advice? Step outside of the box. Step outside of what you are interpreting to be an accusation..but which sounds like a plea for protection and demonstration of honor and value of her health and wellbeing with eery familiarity.

Right now..what it looks like to her..is that you are more concerned [yet again] with your own satisfaction and offended dignity than you are with reassuring her and offerring her shelter in your arms.

Volunteer to protect her..volunteer to wear a condom until she feels safe without it..volunteer to be tested bi-weekly if it will help her fill in that void of betrayal that says "Flee if you value your life!"

Go out of your way to be supportive of her very real fear of disease. Your behaviors may have changed..but the damage that they have caused is not yet repaired. Help her by allowing her time to heal..and demonstrating that she is your priority. That what is past..has indeed passed and perhaps then she may be willing to venture a future with you.

It's uncharted territory. Proceed with caution.

Noodle

XScoundrel,

I can understand that it must be a really difficult position for both you and your W to be in, and especially after 3 years of working at this. I'm sorry for your pain.
Has your W read any A books or talked to an IC? Every A book has a section about BS accepting responsibility for their part of the pre-A R problems. In Torn Asunder, Dave Carder talks about how accepting responsibility for your part in the R problems actually gives you more control over the outcome.
Has your W considered posting here?
How well have you been doing at avoiding LBs, being completely honest and open about your feelings, and meeting ENs? Do you get time to relax and have fun together?

Your W seems to be a little 'stuck' in the pain, and for her benefit as well as your M, she needs to find a way to get beyond it somehow. There really is only so much you can do alone, and beyond that, if she is not ready, prepared or able to make an effort, for whatever reasons of her own, then there is nothing you can do about this.

If she is intent on D right now, have you considered a separation for a given amount of time instead? Maybe with the proviso that if after this time you both agree to try again at it, you will try a totally new strategy - like MC, a weekend workshop, reading A books together, really making an effort to implement Harley principles, followed by a great holiday with just you two? It may be that a separation could make it clearer to her whether she has reasons to keep trying to get over this with you, or on the other hand, make it clearer whether you could be happier apart.

Mrs. X:

Hi, My name is Caren. I am currently in a situation with my husband where he's having an affair and decided that he no longer wishes to be married. I have chosen to try my hardest to make my marriage work. This is not a popular opinion, I have to tell you. I get ZERO support from friends and family on my position. Everyone feels that if the b@stard is cheating on you, you kick him to the curb. I do not share this view, and it appears to everyone else that I am letting myself be a doormat, this is absolutely NOT the case.

I love my husband very much, and I know he loves me too, I am not willing to give up my life, my family with him because he made a bad choice. I don't mean to belittle what's being done to me by simply calling it a choice, it's horribly painful, and I'm having a hard time dealing with it. That being said, I would give anything in this entire world to have the chance that you have, to have my husband out of his fog and willing to try to make our marriage work, that is what I pray for everyday. This won't, of course, make everything all better, but it would be a start.

In every marriage that has been touched by an affair, there are needs that are going unmet. Therefore the bereaved spouse does share in part of the blame, there were things that weren't being provided for our spouses that they needed, so since they weren't getting these things from us, they had to go elsewhere. Again, I don't mean that you should shoulder all the blame, your husband should never have taken it that far, but he is also human, and makes mistakes. It is obvious that he loves you and is sorry for his indiscretion, and it's so rare in this world to find someone who does love you.

I implore you to give yourselves a chance, you can't keep punishing him for the past, and you've got to find a way around what happened yourself. Divorcing him will not make those feelings go away, and you'll be sorry that you didn't try harder. Read the marriage builders books, they really do help, and if after you've tried to repair your marriage you still feel this way, then at that time get a divorce, but until that time just try. It won't hurt anything to try....divorce is always out there, it doesn't expire.

-Caren

To all who are responding to this post, a very heartfelt 'thank you.' It is encouraging. Some of you have asked questions or made comments that I want to respond to.

B-Jersey, you wrote: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She CAN learn to trust again. What actions are you taking to eleviate her suspicions ? I sure wish she'd post...or email one of us. She sounds like she could use some support as well. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My actions have been my willingness to be completely accountable about my
time and activities(typically I don't wait for her to have to ask but offer this to her) and also my involvement in recovery (though sometimes she will diss this as a bunch of guys sitting around talking about sex---actually a meeting is an electrifying experience of honesty, vulnerability, and transparency and is focused on God more than anything else). I wish she would post or email some of you as wel. She definitly needs the support. I have told her she needs support and nobody could get through this kind of wound alone but she is in a place where anything I say is viewed with suspicion as having sinister intent.

I introduced her to MB back after we got through the first 3 months after D-day. That was a very rough time. When we kind of pulled out of that, I shared MB principles with her and although she didn't want to read or post on the site, she did go through the EN survey with me. As suspected, our top EN were completely different. Had I known this, that fact alone might have kept me from straying as I felt like my wife's lack of interest in sex and passion, etc.... (her non-meeting of my top EN's) was an indication of her lack of love for me. But I was trying to love her through the lens of my top EN's, not knowing that her top EN's were completely different.

B-Jersey, you also wrote
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My knee jerk reaction.... is a revenge A. Just seems some of the stuff coming out is FOG talk...classic in many ways. It's a possibility you know. Have you ever considered this as a possible problem ??? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have considered this more than once and asked her more than once. She denies it and I am inclined to believe her. I still kind of wonder if there is an EA involved but I get more of this sense of independence of "I don't need you or any man." My wife's father struggled with mental illness and wasn't able to support his family. Probably because of his own pain, he made some choices that were selfish and hurtful to his family. My wife has often verbalized total hatred and despising for her (now deceased) father. Not too suprisingly (as I better understand myself and other humans), she sometimes speaks of him in very idealistic terms too though this is rare.

But I have seen the same kind of fog that I was in when I was straying and I have told her that. Here are the parallels I've seen:
</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This divorce is all about her. It's certainly not that is considering what is best for anyone else. When I suggested the other day that the kids would be hurt, she said "so many of their friends have been divorced, it's no big deal."!!!</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Blame--periodically but in the last month and a half since she started this march toward divorce, she totally demonizes me and puts all the blame for the divorce on me. She will, at best, half-heartedly acknowledge some share of the responsibility. This is the same rationalization I used to blow right through the warning signals and into adultery. I blamed my wife's lack of meeting my need for SF, companionship, affection, etc.... I half-heartedly owned a little responsbility. I was hurt by what I saw as my wife's lack of desire for me and I felt victimized because I couldn't see my own part in that dynamic.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As I was going down that path, I KNEW I needed to reach out for help but I was too proud and fearful to do so. I considered it too humiliating to my manhood to tell anyone that my wife was less than enthusiastic about my SF, etc... I WISH I had had the humility and guts to reach out for help and face my own stuff rather than have acted so selfishly.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I minimized the possibility that I would have to face my consequences. I can't speak for all WS but I had not aspired to be a WS and when I was, I did NOT envision myself living out my life that way. I thought I would fill up what was lacking in my marriage for a little while and then stop and it would be a secret for the rest of my life. STUPID thinking! I see my wife saying she is so excited about divorcing and seemingly oblivious to the consequences all around.</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Pep and Noodle you wrote: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope you have apologized to your wife for your response... have you? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AND
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My advice? Step outside of the box. Step outside of what you are interpreting to be an accusation..but which sounds like a plea for protection and demonstration of honor and value of her health and wellbeing with eery familiarity.

Right now..what it looks like to her..is that you are more concerned [yet again] with your own satisfaction and offended dignity than you are with reassuring her and offerring her shelter in your arms. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes I have apologized and I appreciate your affirming her view and my self-centeredness in thinking the way I did. I wish I could promise I wouldn't repeat such thinking and behavior. But I am working on it.

Smur you wrote: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Has your W read any A books or talked to an IC? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wife read a couple of books early on. One was "Women who love Men with Secret Wars" (I read the Men's Secret Wars book) and another, I can't remember the title, but was by the wife of a man with an online porn addiction. She had mixed responses to them and ultimately ridiculed them for staying and going through the pain for 'their husbands' problem.' She also went to an IC early on but came back from every session enraged and talking divorce. I was NOT involved in an affair on D-day and was actually felt some sense of relief for my secret to be exposed (I didn't have to hide it any more); I had a sense that getting the secret out was a way of being done with it. But the impact of D-day on my wife and then on our kids was far and away the most excruciating thing I have ever experienced. I cried every day for 3 months. I probably had not cried for years before that. But I couldn't help it. There were numerous times I thought it would be better and more honorable for me to take my own life during that time. Fortunately, I was going to IC 2-3 times a week and had several close friends who were walking closely with me through that time. My wife has never gotten the support that I have.

You also wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">have you considered a separation for a given amount of time instead? Maybe with the proviso that if after this time you both agree to try again at it, you will try a totally new strategy - like MC, a weekend workshop, reading A books together, really making an effort to implement Harley principles, followed by a great holiday with just you two? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have suggested a 6 month separation with both of us in counseling. She'd rather spend the money on lawyers because her mind is made up. Holiday with just us two? Now that would make her mad. You see, I was always the husband who planned romantic getaways, dates, etc... which she always resented because she felt like I was excluding the kids and because (with some merit) like I was the kind of husband who only had time for his family to play but not to pitch in on the work (yep, one of her top ENs).

Caren Thanks so much for sharing your story, I will print it out and give it to her. Thank you for your honesty and courage and example. Like with, FNCJ, my heart breaks for your situation. My prayer is that your husband would come quickly to the point of realizing how amazing is the gift of compassion and love that you offer to him...and return to his marriage and family to treasure it for the rest of his life.