Oh, yes, I forgot to mention the forgiveness part. Forgiveness is not possible while the A is still going on. Sorry. Unless you are Saint Joan or Jesus himself, you're probably not capable of forgiving someone while they are repeatedly stabbing you. I am capable of forgiveness for both of them. But not until the A is over. Keep in mind, forgiving and forgetting are two different things.

Folks,

We are forgetting (thanks for that WAT!!) the reason WHY we need to forgive. It DOES NOT require the person being forgiven to ask for forgiveness...or to even want forgiveness. Forgiveness is an overt act of the will of the person doing the forgiving.

Besides the fact that God says that He will not forgive you if you dont forgive the other person, let's look at the practical matters here.

Forgiveness sets YOU free. Forgiveness is NOT excusing the other person, nor even letting them off the hook for the consequences of their actions. It is you releasing them from your anger and your vengeance for what they have done to you. It is you freeing yourself from the hold that they have on your heart.

A couple people just posted that they couldnt forgive...but have decided to move on and leave the OP behind. Guess what? That is a part of forgiving.

Like I said...I think too many of us dont fully understand the concept of forgiving. It isnt for the person that hurt us. It isnt giving them a free pass and letting them out of their consequences. it isnt excusing what they did. It isnt forgetting what they did. It is us releasing them from us. It is dropping the baggage of hate and anger that is in us so we can be at peace.

Just a thought.

In His arms.

Forgiveness...true forgiveness...isnt possible without Jesus. We humans just dont have it in us.

So, Starz...your point is true. Without Jesus, we cannot forgive. But with Him, it is possible...even while in pain from what they are doing to us.

In His arms.

<small>[ January 05, 2005, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

Mortarman, I don't disagree with you. I am capable of total forgiveness for both of them. But I, personally, cannot forgive until they stop hurting me. When that happens I will be able to forgive. I am speaking only for myself here. I know my limitations. God and I have talked about this. He understands where my heart is right now. I promise you He and I will talk often, and forgiveness will come. It just can't be right now.

I find myself unable to rise above the pain at this time. Hopefully soon . . .

....and regardless of what "forgiveness" means - I'm forming the view that it means different things to different people - for me I cannot, will not grant it until I consider the offenders worthy of it. For me worthiness means admission of guilt, evidence of remorse, and atonement to all those harmed (atonement being determined by those harmed).

I do not carry this burden. Rather, I carry the debt relief. They may not yet know that they are carrying this burden (debt).

WAT

I wish there wasn't anything to forgive...I wish that I had some kind of device that could rewind time, I wish I could be happy...I'm doing a fantastic job pretending I'm happy....But I'm completely miserable.

I am stuck, I can't get to a place where I'm even angry at my WH....I can't get past the pain, the anguish of needing to be held so badly, knowing he is the only one that can do it, but he's the one inflicting the pain.

I can be angry at her, although I avoid her at all costs, because I really don't know if I could control myself if I saw her. I am not a big woman, but I am strong, and I am so angry that I know I could knock the snot out of her...what I don't know is....could I stop? I don't think I could, I don't think I could stop myself from hitting her until she no longer moved....I don't want to be this way....I would never have said I could kill another human being, but I honestly think I could now.....I want to be free of all this, but it still creeps in every now and then. I think this may be part of the reason that my H has always denied there was anything going on, he knows my temper and he knows I could take her out without batting an eye....in example, when I first moved out, I started going to the bars with my friends (3 times total) the last time we went out I ran into my WH, he was there with his cousin, I asked his cousin if I should leave, his cousin said "No....don't worry about it" So I stayed away, I didn't look for where he was sitting or try to see what he was doing....he came over to me and came up behind me and said "Hope you're having fun" right in my ear, not loudly, but loud enough to hear over the music, I said "Oh I am" Then a few minutes later he came over to my table again, and took my hand and led me onto the dance floor....my friends were telling me not to go, but hell, I wanted to dance with him. After the dance was over he thanked me and I went back to my table, my friend was still giving me grief about dancing with him, and was walking backwards onto the dancefloor with my beer, so I'm laughing and following her out there and got my beer, and since I'm out there I figure I'll dance. My husband came onto the dance floor and danced with a girl RIGHT BESIDE ME!!!!!!!!!!!! I couldn't breathe, I couldn't move.......I just snapped I turned and his back was facing me and I landed a punch right between his shoulder blades...this spun him around and his back was against the DJ booth directly in front of me, I threw my beer at him (breaking the bottle) and then I proceeded to punch him repeatedly in both sides of this head (his hands were up protecting his face)everytime I hit him he took a step back, I beat on him from one side of the bar to the other, I had him backed into a corner...and was still going when my friends got to me and tried to pull me off of him, the held onto me long enough for him to sit down and I broke free again ... I wasn't done, I couldn't stop....I had almost reached him when the bouncer came up behind me and picked me up and carried me out of the bar. I am 5'7" 120 lbs, he is 6'1" 250 lbs...I bent the **** out of my rings hitting him, I gave him a slight concussion.....If I can inflict that kind of damage on a huge guy like that...what do you think I can do to her little 5'2" [censored]??? Yes, I'd pulverize her. I haven't gone out, or drank a drop since that night.....I decided I obviously can't control myself when I'm drinking.....

I don't like to be this way....I'm not this kind of person...I don't even recognize myself anymore.

-Caren

MM said
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We are forgetting (thanks for that WAT!!) the reason WHY we need to forgive. It DOES NOT require the person being forgiven to ask for forgiveness...or to even want forgiveness. Forgiveness is an overt act of the will of the person doing the forgiving.

Besides the fact that God says that He will not forgive you if you dont forgive the other person, let's look at the practical matters here.

Forgiveness sets YOU free. Forgiveness is NOT excusing the other person, nor even letting them off the hook for the consequences of their actions. It is you releasing them from your anger and your vengeance for what they have done to you. It is you freeing yourself from the hold that they have on your heart.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds like this is straight out of the DivorceCare hand book.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Great stuff and just like most other things that are good for you, it tastes like crap going down sometimes.

Forgiveness isn't, or rather shouldn't, be reciprocal on the offending party asking for it.

I'll quote Yancey from "Whats so Amazing About Grace".....
-------------------------------
"Often times, the first and only person healed by forgiveness, is the one doing the forgiving."
-------------------------------

To start we don't need forgiveness in our hearts, only the {b}willingness[/b] to forgive.

God Bless

Doug

<small>[ January 05, 2005, 12:14 PM: Message edited by: d_rose ]</small>

You cannot forgive "nothing"........and that is what the XOW is to me.....nothing.

I don't hate her.....despise her.....wish anything bad to happen to her......I just simply don't think about her at all.

I may see her and her H in passing...quite often actually...but it strikes nothing within me anymore. They are just people that I pass by and recognise.....for a split second....that's it.

They have no part in my life....or my thoughts.

I control that....it doesn't control me.