Okay…here is the long awaited Mortarman update. I am not entirely sure where I left off, so I will try to be brief in my synopsis of the last two years since my wife came home. If you want to know the deal before that, go look up my threads starting in June 2002. It will give you insight into where I have been…and how my wife and I became a success story. Albeit, we went thru a lot of hell that we didn’t have to. Which is one of the reasons I post…so that others may learn from my mistakes…and also learn from our successes.

My wife came home in April 2003. For the first few weeks she was home, we had some intimacy and was working on things. But, she pulled away from me, and as a result, I began to pull away from her. The OM had moved back to Florida (we live in Virginia). But she was still having contact with him, mostly due to a cell phone that was in his name that she was using and paying him monthly for. She never sent a NC letter to him. Before she came home, she met with him and told him she was coming home to me. Over and over, while she was home, I pleaded with her to get rid of the phone, but met with a myriad of excuses. That phone was driving a wedge between us.

The combination of her not sending a NC letter, of her continued contact due to the phone, and of her pulling back from me, made me anxious and made me do things that did not help our recovery. I began talking after three months, to a gal that I had been talking to online and by phone, who was going thru the same thing I was. I would just commiserate and ask advice on how to deal with my wife. Anyway, I did that for 6 months, as my wife and I pulled further apart. No intimacy, no sex. Things were getting worse between us.

Pre-Christmas 2003 was horrible. We were at each other’s throats, and I could see divorce was imminent. But a funny thing happened, which has been the theme throughout this whole three year deal. My wife pulls back at the last minute and says she wants to go to counseling again…that she doesn’t want us to break up.

So, January 2004, we start counseling with a Christian counselor (I will call him Dale). We spend the next three months going to see him. But, as Dale told me, my wife continues to stonewall and not do the things needed to move us forward. Still no intimacy or sex after a year of being home. OM is confirmed to be in Florida…so we are both miserable because of the loneliness that now is in both of our lives.

June 2004, my FIL dies. My wife flies out to help, and I drive the kids and I to meet her in Indiana for the funeral. Things go relatively well, considering. But my wife was mostly busy with taking care of her mom for me to be of much help to her.

We came back, and began talking about what we were doing next. We had looked at houses (we had to leave the house I had been renting for the last two years…we had to be out by the end of July 2004). I had just retired from the Army in June 2004, and was unemployed as I awaited several jobs to finish their background checks of me and to get me started.

One of the things that started all of our mess years ago was financial problems. My wife’s number one EN is Financial Security. So, me out of work, bills needing to be paid, her mom having severe financial trouble…and us needing a new house…was weighing on her heavily.

On July 24th, she heads out to look for houses and tells the kids that I wont be coming with her. Four days later, her mom starts to head to Virginia with all of her stuff, in order to live with my wife. In the meantime, I had managed to get us a house…but my wife said that it was too late…and that she was not going down this road again (she was scared of the financial issues).

On July 29th, with her mom at a hotel and my wife still saying it is over, I grabbed my friends and brothers and began moving our household goods to my mother’s basement across town in order to stage the stuff until I knew exactly where we would be…the house I had found…or separate places.

On July 30th, my wife got approved for a house 10 miles from where our current house was. That morning, before she was approved, she heard from me that I got approval for the job that I am currently in…and that I would start that next Monday. She then got the approval for the house she found.

She calls me later in the day and says she wants to talk. So I go meet her at our old house (the only things left there were her stuff). She then tells me she doesn’t want us to end. That she doesn’t want our kids in a broken home. She comes up with Red Laws, a series of things we have to do over the next 90 days, that will help us re-attach our relationship. Stuff like dating once a week, counseling once a week, dinner once a week. I mapped it out, and she had it set so that basically, when she was off work, we were to be together. Now the catch here was that I was to stay at my mom’s house during the 90 days, but the kids and our stuff would go to her new house 10 miles away and register in the schools there.

Well, if you know my history (anyone that wants to understand this MUST go back and read my history), you know that she left us for 7 months in August 2002 thru April 2003 to be with the OM. I had a slam dunk case to continue to have custody of my children. Well, now, I was allowing her to take them. Well sort of.

From the start of this Red Laws deal, I found problems. She was working so much trying to meet all of the bills of the new house, the kids, and her mother…that she said she couldn’t find time to do the things on the list. I became resentful, and began to insist that the kids stay with me half the time…so we went to a 4 day custody schedule while we worked on things. She did go to counseling with me with Dale twice in August…but Dale again said she was stonewalling.

My older son, who is great at baseball, was beginning to suffer because I wasn’t available to work with him on the days he was at his mom’s house. Not only was I frustrated at us not moving forward over August and early September, but now my kids were suffering. Plus, they were living out of bags because they would be with me four days, and then her four days. So, one day in Sept, I basically got angry and told her that if this is the way it is, and she was going to make so little effort, we might as well divorce. I went to see my attorney the next day to just see what my position was. But I didn’t file anything. She went and got an attorney and filed for divorce.

Shortly thereafter, she traded the cell phone in that she had of the OM’s, for two cell phones from him. One for her and one for her mom. They began talking again. In the meantime, her and I went to almost exclusive no contact. We had a deposition, which didn’t go well for her in early November. But besides that, no real contact except on stuff dealing with the kids. I knew she had to be back in contact with the OM, because only when she was, did she ever not have contact with me.

In late November, right before Thanksgiving, I began to have suspicions that she was back in touch with the OM. We had a court date in early Dec for custody of our kids. Her mom had flown out ahead of my wife to Indiana for Thanksgiving. My wife was to drive her and the kids out there the next week. So, on that Friday night before, with the kids at my mom’s house and her mom in Indiana, I decided to do a little background checking. This would have been the first time that she had the house alone, with no one in it. She went to work that night…and got off at around midnight (she is a nurse).

So, I waited down the street…and there she came…with another car also in the driveway. I went around back, and peered in the window…and there was the OM back from Florida! I ended up seeing them hooking up. I got pictures of the car in her yard as evidence, and I left.

Now, my wife has stated, and I believe her, that their contact before this was purely about paying on the phone. But once she filed, then she began talking to OM. Then he provided the new phones. She began to be drawn back in. So, when he drove up for that weekend to visit friends here, he stopped in with her. Neither of us have had sex in a year and a half. So, when he showed up, with us not talking and divorcing…well, you know what happened.

I was floored again!! She called me the next afternoon, after she had picked the kids up from me. She had just watched “The Story of Us” on TV and wondered how they got it back together. I then cried and blurted out that I knew she had just hooked up with the OM. (Note: OM left for Florida that next day and hasn’t been back since). We both cried, with her saying “I didn’t know you cared.” What??? How in the world didn’t she know I cared? Well, I thought about it. Fog, fog, fog, fog, fog!!

I went over later to drop some of the kids’ clothes off. She grabbed ahold of me and hugged me and held on. She wanted to talk. We did for awhile. And she said that she thought we should go thru with the divorce and then see what happens between us. I tld her that once divorced, there will never be an us. She said that was too bad.

The next two weeks before trial were uneventful. I went to the church the week before court and had our marriage ended spiritually. On that Monday of trila, I saw myself as no longer married in God’s eyes…and it was time to finish it off legally. I knew my wife loved me and wanted this…but she was never going to get her act together.

But my pastor, Dale and other Christian friends had always stated that it was probably going to take something big to get her to wake up. To get the fog to clear and to get her to do the hard work.

Well, our court date was the turning point. Thank God Virginia is a fault state! We went into court with her so sure of getting custody. She had said two months earlier that she was under no illusion that I was going to get custody.

Well, the judge was having none of it. The judge heard about how my wife had started an affair while I was in Bosnia deployed after 9/11 (the judge was a former Ranger in Vietnam!!), that she couldn’t handle an affair, nursing school and the kids, so she sent the kids to her mom’s out of state until I got back that next April. That the Om lived part time at my house. That she had moved out after I came home, deserting me and the kids to be with the OM. That I had allowed her to come home 7 months later, but that she did next to nothing to work on the marriage. That she took the opportunity to deceive me this past July and try to take the kids and move on with out me. And then she committed fresh adultery in the eyes of the law with the one incident in November. The judge saw no remorse. She acted like that what she had done was what she needed to do.

Then the judge came back with his decision. We would both have legal custody…but I would have primary physical custody and she would pay me over $1000 a month child support!! Wow.

We left there in a hurry in order to avoid conflict. My wife called later, asking if she was still going to have the kids for the rest of the week.

Now listen to me ladies and gentlemen, because the way I handled myself here (yes, this is me patting myself on the back) is the biggest reason why we are together today. I didn’t gloat. I wasn’t mean. Actually, I told her to keep them for the rest of the week. I knew she needed them with her. She was a mother who had just lost her children. A mother who was a great mother before all of this.

Well, this verdict was the big bomb everyone was waiting for. My wife, except for work, spent the next week in bed. Even with the kids there…she was in bed, crying. She began calling me 4-6 times a day over the next few days. She had the kids with her. She was calling to talk with me.

She had gone on her own the day after court to see Dale. She was telling Dale (and me) that she didn’t understand how she had gotten where she was. Why it had taken a judge ordering her kids away from her, to understand what she was doing and had been doing was wrong. She couldn’t understand how she could have been so deceived.

This was radical stuff. For the first time, no finger pointing or justifications. She knew she was wrong. And had lost everything!!

We went out together that next Friday night and talked. We then went to church that Saturday night as a family. She asked what she could do to make it all right. I told her again that she had to do all the things Dr. Harley talked about. That if she really now saw the truth, that she must do it. That we were either fully in, or fully out.

We went to counseling together and separately over the next two weeks. She was still calling me 4-6 times a day just to talk. She kept inviting me over, even though the kids were spending most of their time with her. I had put a deposit right before court, down on a townhouse two blocks from hers. It was going to make it easier for the kids.

Well, she wanted us not to divorce. To work on us, while living two blocks away. I said “no,” that we were either in or out. That we weren’t going to play around with this. That I was done dealing with her as anything other than my wife. If she wanted the marriage, then I was going to move into the house with her and we were going to be committed and move forward. Or, I was going dark (Plan B) and letting the divorce go thru 6 weeks from then (late Feb).

Dale offered to mediate, to help us find the plan on how to do all of this. My wife said she wanted to see what he had to offer, so we went to see Dale and to get the plan. By the end of a two hour session, my wife was still on the fence. She was scared and didn’t know what to do. She wanted us to take it slow. I said again, that this was not possible. I thanked Dale for his effort, and I walked out of the session. But, before I got home, my wife called. We talked for an hour. She told me that she really wanted us, always had. But had been running from her fears. That she didn’t know how to do this. That Dec 13th had woke her up finally, but that she was scared that things would not work out and she didn’t want that in her home if it wasn’t going to work out. I told her there was only one way to know and that is commit and then try. She agreed, and I moved in there two days later.

Since that day, things have been great!! She is intimate and affectionate. She has been planning our future. We went to see Dale again, since he is the intermediary for us. He outlined our financial plan, and plan for meeting our needs. He said both of us should get STD testing (although I don’t need it, he just made a broad statement in order to make her feel better). Both of us have made appointments for that. He said the NC letter must be sent to the OM, after I saw it. And she went home and finished that letter the next morning. She also contacted her attorney and told her she wanted the divorce shut down. Again, she has been affectionate and has agreed to all of my demands, as well as those outlined by Dale.

So, on the one had, JustLearning was right two years ago. That I had let her come home, without the NC letter or any remorse. And thus we floundered for almost a year and a half. And that led to us almost getting divorced, and her to run to OM one more time. But this past December and the bomb that exploded, allowed her to finally see clearly for the first time in three years. And for her to give in completely, and cheerfully I might add. Before, when she came home, she would begrudgingly give in on some things. Now she just says “yes,” smiles and does them.

So, the point is that while I did finally follow the plan all the way out, it took a lot longer than it should of because I kept allowing her to manipulate the plans. And once the plans had fully worked, that she did finally have the fog cleared.

So, there is the update. I left a lot out…but you have the just of what happened. My wife wants us to go to one of the upcoming MarriageBuilder weekends. She wants us also to get “remarried” in a new ceremony. She is putting her rings on for the first time in three years. It is amazing.

So, success. But it took awhile.

In His arms.

<small>[ January 05, 2005, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

Mortarman

What a great success story! You have been through "it", man, and you have my greatest admiration for your inner strength.

It is great to have you back and posting again. Your ability to cut through to the thick of matters is acute, and your advice is keenly on the mark.

I wish you the best in the recovery of your marriage, and I hope you'll stay and post your wisdom to these folks not as far along as you.

Best wishes,
SD

mortarman...

thank you for sharing...(FINALLY!!!!!!!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

I think that you consistantly came to that place where you could show your spouse the things we all need..

that you believed/believe enough in her that she can and could change...

and that even the worst actions in our worst moments don't HAVE to define who we are ...

and there it is OK to hold on to hope..while planning for the worst...

You also showed great strength to not take on her issues and actions as yours...

your old posts and your recent post especially on the act of forgiveness come from a place that is not easily come to...nor do many express it as well as you....

your children have a real dad....
your wife truly has a Godly man...

blessings and Grace to you and yours sir...

ARK

I wonder how you would advise others with wavering WS's but they live in a no-fault state. It does seem that the judges decision played a big part in your FWS's finally emerging from the fog.

I do think a tough stance plan B after a good plan A can also help but with not every WS. They somehow need to really see themselves and feel the full implications of their bad choices on who they have become, and what they stand to lose, and the damage to their kids. So many seem to delude themselves into believing that their fantasy A can actually be la la land for the kids too as they either blend families or imagine riding out into the sun set with their 'soulmate' playing the part of wonderful step-parent.

There is a faction of society that enables A's and actually thinks that the A couples are some variation of Romeo and Juliet against the world.

Would that more people would call the infidels as they are and shun their homewrecking behaviors. Would that more states would do away with no-fault D's again.

It helped when I appeared to move on and just see my FWS's behavior as pathetic and weak. It also helped when he was forced to live out his fantasy which allowed the bubble to burst and also to face the reality of everything he stood to lose.

Mortar:

What a great story!! I'm so happy for you. How long has it been since you called off the divorce?

-Caren

Oh hey...I have a question about plan B I just thought of....should it restrict access to the children?? I mean not completely but except for scheduled visitation? My WH calls my daughter 43 times a day, and she calls him at night to say "Goodnight, I love you, God Bless You", I just don't know how that'd work when I get to the "B" stage. (I'm of course no where close to that yet).

-Caren

Mortarman,
Thanks for the uplifting update. I hope your story helps those BS who are hard pressed to follow the tough road.... the one you wished you had followed after all of this!

I am so glad to see that you are happy again and that your family is healing. Hallelujah!

~ Snow

Thank you so much for shareing, I am glad to see that it is possable to walk away and stand your ground and still see a happy ending. I am in a false recovery (no cheating I do not think- but no respect either) and I am ready to walk away until some major changes are made. Thanks for making it a little less scary.
KMEJ

Mm:

That is amazing!.......


...I think the important thing is NOT "how" your W woke up, but that she did. She saved herself.

I look forward 2 further updates from you. After all, you're just a few weeks in2 recovery now, after all.

Best 2 you and your family,
-ol' 2long

Hey MM!

Thanks for the update... it's definitely an answer to my prayers. I wish you and your wife the best as you both continue rebuilding your M...

Is your old e-mail address still good?

Semper Fi,
RIF

Yes Mortar, I'm glad you posted your update, I read every bit of your story, and I'm so glad things turned out so well in the end!! Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy!!

I SOOOO appreciate your replies to my posts, you have an uncanny ability to sense what's going on in the situation and let me know what direction is up!

You're fantastic...I'm so glad everything is better for you, now stick around and FIX ME dammit LOL

-Caren

Mortarman, I have been unable to find your very early posts, but the condensed version gave here gives some insight into your inner strength, resolve and your understanding of my situation. Admittedly your situation was far worse than mine is, so thanks for your support and advice. Congrats and good luck, I hope and know that your new marriage is extra special!! Your FWW must feel like the luckiest woman alive and realise that there is a GOD!!

Cheers R-Man

Mortarman - I'm glad things finally seem to be working out for you. Usually it does take a "bomb" of some sort to break through the fog, especially when the WS is the wife and they get into a Class II affair. I can relate, more than you know, to the cell phone issue. I'm still dealing with that one and it's not fun.

Something you said, buried in your post, caught my eye and I didn't read anything that addressed it. What I read was:

"I went to the church the week before court and had our marriage ended spiritually. On that Monday of trila, I saw myself as no longer married in God’s eyes…"

What exactly did you do to have it "ended spiritually?" Are we talking about something like a Catholic annulment or something else?

Also, since you now consider yourself still married (legally), what have you done about the "spiritual divorce" you sought and received?

God bless.

Hi MM,

Thank you for posting your update.I am very happy for you and your FWW and I sincerely hope that God has great things planned for you both now.

I was curious about what ForeverHers asked too.The "spiritual ending" of the marriage? Now that you are actually working this out after all this time and never did go through with a D,what does this mean for you?

I also just wanted to add that I appreciate your posts to people here.It seems we had run off track and people seemed lost as to how to stick by their plans.There was and is confusion and anger,emotions running wild,inappropriate choices being made by BS'S too,etc.It's just nice to know that you are on board to help get us all back to basics.

~Prayers to you and your family~

O

Wow...thanks everyone for the "adda-boys." I really do appreciate it. And believe me, if it werent for MB, and for many of you...I would have long ago gave up and just divorced. Of course, the biggest reason and strength that I have had over this whole thing is my relationship with Christ. On my own, I would have never been able to hang in there. But He always provided me the strength to get up one more day and try.

I did want to answer a few of the questions that were posed out there.

Trix...you are right. It is so hard for BSs to do Plan B...to call the infidels on what they are doing. We are scared...scared it will push them towards the OP. And in actuality, we are. But we do so knowing that those relationships have almost no statistical possiblity of making it. So, we are forcing our WSs into relying on something that will 90% of the time...fail.

Caren...on the children issue...no, do not restrict his access to them. But, you can control the access. What do I mean? If you go back to my posts in the fall of 2002 and early 2003, you will see that I did several things. First, I had a separate phone line with a distinctive ring set up. And I gave that phone number to my wife. So, she could call the kids anytime, the phone would have a unique ring...and only the kids would answer. That allowed me not to have to deal with her. Once I did that, I told her that I did not want to talk directly to her. We could go thru an intermediary...or we could play "voicemail tag." She chose the latter. What that meant was that she was NOT to answer the phone when I called. That she would let it go to voicemail...and I would leave messages concernign the kids. She would then call back and leave a voicemail for me (I would NEVER answer when she called), to respond to my voicemail concerning the kids. Any talk by her or questions by her outside of the kids...well, I ignored them and did not respond to them. I also said that she could see them anytime, within limits. Those limits were that she called ahead of time...and that once bedtime came, she had to leave. If she decided to come over to see them, I found a way to make myself scarce. I went to my room, or worked outside while she met with the kids. I didnt even answer the door when she came...I let the kids do it. So, the answer is...yes, he should maintain his relationship with his kids. Actually, it is one of the best hopes for your marriage that he does so. But, you can do Plan B with kids...but you have to draw firm boundaries so that you can do Plan B correctly.

RIF...yes, I still have the same email address. When we separated this past fall again, I did not have my computer, so I did not have access to many of my files. But I am back up now!! Hope things are well over there!!

ForeverHers and OctoberGirl...I would love to go into this. Actually, someone already started a thread sort of on this. I will put the link below. I would love to continue the discussion there on this. But in short, it isnt really an annulment. An annulment is basically saying the marriage never happened. What happened at my church was that it basically did the divorce. You see, marriage is God's institution...not man's. God is very clear about not wanting man to separate what He put together. The Bible goes on to say that when two Christians have a problem, if they take it before a civilian court, they have already lost. That they are to take it before the church. And the church is to decide and make binding decisions on behalf of God. So, if God married us thru his church...then only the church can divorce us. Remember the adulteress that Jesus met at the well? Remember he talked about how she had in fact five husbands? What was he saying? He was saying that she had never gotten divorced from her first husband. Not spiritually. Not in God's eyes. So, when we go to the coutrthouse, get a divorce and then remarry...God does not recognize that divorce. He still sees you as married. Thus, that next marriage results in adultery on both of your parts. But, like I said, I will list the link below and we can continue the discussion on this there.

Oh, and your question on whether I am still married...the answer is, no I am not. Sure, I am legally. But spiritually, I was divorced from her. My wife (I guess that makes her my ex-wife right now) and I are already planning to have the church remarry us shortly. Actually, we are going to have a whole big wedding in the future in order to start our new marriage off right. But legally, yes...we are still married. But I dont really care about that. All I care about is what is in God's eyes. That is why there is no sex or anything like that between us until we settle this issue. Which will be settled very soon. It is funny. My oldest son stated this the other day. He asked if we were divorced by the church, does that mean we have to get remarried? Of course, he was right on!!

Here is the link: Discussion on marriage and the church's role

Again, thanks to everyone that has helped me so far. The Lord has used you in ways that you may never fully appreciate.

In His arms.

<small>[ January 06, 2005, 08:54 AM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What happened at my church was that it basically did the divorce. You see, marriage is God's institution...not man's. God is very clear about not wanting man to separate what He put together. The Bible goes on to say that when two Christians have a problem, if they take it before a civilian court, they have already lost. That they are to take it before the church. And the church is to decide and make binding decisions on behalf of God. So, if God married us thru his church...then only the church can divorce us. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MM - thanks for the link. I don't have time to review that thread right now as I am preparing to go out of town for several days (brrrrr...from North Carolina to the wind chill factor of 15-20 below zero northwoods of Wisconsin) for my father's 84th birthday.

However, your statement(above) prompts more questions, if you don't mind.

"when two Christians have a problem..." I was under the impression from your previous posting that your wife was not a Christian. I may be getting your wife confused with someone else's wife. Straighten me out on this one, will you?

"the church is to decide and make binding decisions on behalf of God." Okay, you are referring to Matt.18:15-20 if I understand you correctly.

I think I might have to disagree with your interpretation of this "church discipline" passage as you seem to state it, but we should probably discuss it further before I decided whether or not I agreed or disagreed with your intrepretation.

Something to think about and respond to: the Matthew passage is about RESTORATION of a sinning believer to fellowship and the protection of the believers in attendance at the church. It is not about "divorcing" a fellow believer. To wit: "what God has joined together, let not man separate."

Further, the church functions as both spiritual and secular arbitrator in the marriage ceremony. To be able to "divorce" they would have to be able to do the reverse proceedure, else they may be presuming upon God. In this country, God has "allowed" the secular process of a valid marriage license and marriage ceremony, either in a church or in a secular setting to "define" marriage. "Co-habitation" by choice is NOT marriage, though some States do recognize "common law" marriages. Regardless, in your case, you chose the "conventional route" to marriage.

You CAN have a "recommitment" ceremony, but you can't have another valid, legal, marriage ceremony with your wife because you are NOT legally divorced. Even in the Old Testament, it took a legal writ of divorce to actually BE divorced.

I would also think we might want to discuss the idea of the church having the power, much less the right, to make "binding" decisions for God. It is God who is sovereign, not man. I'd like to meet the man who can tell God what He can and cannot do or what He must or must not do, if you understand what I am saying.

Going back to what I was mentioning earlier about church discipline, the "treating them as a tax collector or a heathen" is ENDED upon repentance and full fellowship is restored. There was no "divorce." There was only loving action intended to confront sin and hopefully cause the "sinner" to realize that they ARE giving up some things if they continue to sin. But also, that is the LAST step in church discipline. It begins with two leaders privately meeting with the sinner and then progressing only if there is no repentance.

Nowhere that I am aware of in Scripture does God give the "church" the authority to perform a unilateral divorce, especially at the behest of only one marital partner. "What happened at my church was that it basically did the divorce. " I'd be curious how marriage takes the presence and consent of both parties but how the church can "divorce" someone unilaterally, probably without the knowledge, much less the consent, of the person being "divorced."

Again, there may also be differences in what type of church you attend. If you feel inclined to tell me a little about your church it might be helpful in understanding their doctrines. I, for example, attend, and tend to align my understanding of "Christianity" with an Independent Baptist Church. We attend, but are not members, simply because they have a small part of their constitution that I don't think should be a "requirement" for membership (total abstinence from alcohol, if you are curious). But the preaching is "dead on" Scripturally correct.

God bless.

<small>[ January 06, 2005, 12:07 PM: Message edited by: ForeverHers ]</small>

Mortarman,
Thank you so much for your update. I have followed your walk from almost the beginning. I was going through a situation with my spouse and you helped me through your walk and through your suggestions to me. I believe we go through these difficult times for many reasons and one of them is to, if our spouse's are Christians and have fallen away to love them back to Jesus and to help others through our difficulties.

I know if it were not for Jesus and people like you I would not have made it through one of the hardest times of my life.

You have been walking a very long walk yet through all of this you have shown what I believe the scripture calls men to do,
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Your wife is very Blessed to have you for her husband.

Great questions. Let me take them one at a time...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"when two Christians have a problem..." I was under the impression from your previous posting that your wife was not a Christian. I may be getting your wife confused with someone else's wife. Straighten me out on this one, will you?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My wife is a Christian. Sorry if I ever left that impression that she wasnt/isnt.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"the church is to decide and make binding decisions on behalf of God." Okay, you are referring to Matt.18:15-20 if I understand you correctly.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I might have to disagree with your interpretation of this "church discipline" passage as you seem to state it, but we should probably discuss it further before I decided whether or not I agreed or disagreed with your intrepretation.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is okay for us to disagree. But let's discuss it and see where the Lord leads.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Something to think about and respond to: the Matthew passage is about RESTORATION of a sinning believer to fellowship and the protection of the believers in attendance at the church. It is not about "divorcing" a fellow believer. To wit: "what God has joined together, let not man separate." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, I agree that this passage is about restoration. Absolutely!! But restoration to fellowship with Him may not mean the absolution of the consequences of the rebellion that caused the believer to walk away. Just as a believer that might commit murder, but then repent...still will end up in jail. In the case of divorce, this is just part of Scripture that outlines what God wants when it comes to divorce. Too often, we want to take just one text and decide God's will, instead of taking His word in its entirety. I believe that may be what you are thinking I am doing. But, as I will explain further below, there is more involved here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Further, the church functions as both spiritual and secular arbitrator in the marriage ceremony. To be able to "divorce" they would have to be able to do the reverse proceedure, else they may be presuming upon God. In this country, God has "allowed" the secular process of a valid marriage license and marriage ceremony, either in a church or in a secular setting to "define" marriage. "Co-habitation" by choice is NOT marriage, though some States do recognize "common law" marriages. Regardless, in your case, you chose the "conventional route" to marriage. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure, the church does both. I do not discount that. I also do not discount the fact that two people (unbelievers) that are married by the justice of the peace, are married in God's eyes. What I am talking about is that God has outlined in Matthew that when two believers have a problem with each other, they are to take it to the church. Whether that be my Christian business partner owes me money...or my wife is committing adultery. All are the purview of the church. Too many churches dont do this though, because it requires WORK!! I am not confusing spiritual and secular though. I am stil legally married. I am to conduct myself so, until I am not. But, I can be legally divorced and still spiritually married. Because only God decides here. For two unbelievers, they can go to court and get a divorce, because they are not believers. They are not held to the standards of Matthew and others that believers are. But believers are not to take another believer before a secular court first...because then they have already lost!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You CAN have a "recommitment" ceremony, but you can't have another valid, legal, marriage ceremony with your wife because you are NOT legally divorced. Even in the Old Testament, it took a legal writ of divorce to actually BE divorced. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course. I am still married legally. But through the church, God released me from my covenant with her...and that allowed me to pursue the legal divorce. On the Old Testament Writ...where did that Writ come from? The church!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would also think we might want to discuss the idea of the church having the power, much less the right, to make "binding" decisions for God. It is God who is sovereign, not man. I'd like to meet the man who can tell God what He can and cannot do or what He must or must not do, if you understand what I am saying.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, the church does have the power to make binding decisons on behalf of God. Let me give you this Scripture to show you...

Matthew 8:15 "If another believer* sins against you, go privately and point out the fault. If the other person listens and confesses it, you have won that person back. 16 But if you are unsuccessful, take one or two others with you and go back again, so that everything you say may be confirmed by two or three witnesses. 17 If that person still refuses to listen, take your case to the church. If the church decides you are right, but the other person won't accept it, treat that person as a pagan or a corrupt tax collector. 18 I tell you this: Whatever you prohibit on earth is prohibited in heaven, and whatever you allow on earth is allowed in heaven.
19 "I also tell you this: If two of you agree down here on earth concerning anything you ask, my Father in heaven will do it for you. 20 For where two or three gather together because they are mine,* I am there among them."

Notice verses 17-20. This is God saying that the church will loose and bind His will on Earth, and He will bind or loose that decision in Heaven. That He has given the church authority to decide His will in thses cases and render judgment.

Too many people say that we are not to judge as Christians. That is false. It says that we should be careful how we judge, that we are not judging hypocritically, because in the way we judge, we will be judged. Christians that are following the Word of God and His will, are the BEST judges!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Going back to what I was mentioning earlier about church discipline, the "treating them as a tax collector or a heathen" is ENDED upon repentance and full fellowship is restored. There was no "divorce." There was only loving action intended to confront sin and hopefully cause the "sinner" to realize that they ARE giving up some things if they continue to sin. But also, that is the LAST step in church discipline. It begins with two leaders privately meeting with the sinner and then progressing only if there is no repentance. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course, the believer being treated as a tax collector or heathen is ended upon restoration. But, first off...what is a heathen or tax collector? What is meant by that? It is a person that is spiritually dead. A believer cannot lose their salvation. But, they can be treated like they have none in order that God might win them back. Kind of a Plan B by the church!! When I state that my wife has been declared spiritually dead by the church and is treated as a tax gatherer, it means then I can go on in Scripture and find out what it says about divorce.

1st Corithians 7:39 A wife is married to her husband as long as he lives. If her husband dies, she is free to marry whomever she wishes, but this must be a marriage acceptable to the Lord.* The word for death is the same one used in Genesis to describe what happened to Adam and Eve when they ate of the fruit. Now, did they physically die? No. But they spiritually died. So, we all agree that this Scripture says a widow (or widower) is no longer bound to their physically dead spouse. but this Scripture also means that they are no longer bound to their spiritually dead spouse. That is why previously in 1 Corithians 7, it says that a believer who is married to an unbeliever that wants to depart, is to let them depart. Because that unbeliever is in fact "dead." A spouse in unrepentant adultery, who is brought before the church as outlined in Matthew and is declared spiritually dead...which the decision is bound on Earth and in heaven...makes the marrital covenant null and void. Just as physical death makes it null and void.

God says that you are bound to your spouse as long as they live. Physical death frees you from that bond. But also spiritual death frees you from that bond.

When your spouse physically dies, you dont get to say "well, your dead." A coroner does that. Well, when it comes to spiritual death (and an unbeliver cant die spiritually...they were born spiritually dead), the church is the "coroner" for God, the one that declares that believer as a tax gatherer or heathen.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nowhere that I am aware of in Scripture does God give the "church" the authority to perform a unilateral divorce, especially at the behest of only one marital partner. "What happened at my church was that it basically did the divorce. " I'd be curious how marriage takes the presence and consent of both parties but how the church can "divorce" someone unilaterally, probably without the knowledge, much less the consent, of the person being "divorced."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If the spuse will not show up to church, then the church can still do it. How? Well, if you noticed in Matthew, that after confronting the believer, the second thing you are to do before going to the church is to do what? it is to gather witnesses. Two or more witnesses (believers) are to go and confront the spouse, to discern the truth. So, if the spouse doesnt come, there are still witnesses that can testify to the church what the truth is. And if the spouse does come, the truth can still be discerned.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, there may also be differences in what type of church you attend. If you feel inclined to tell me a little about your church it might be helpful in understanding their doctrines. I, for example, attend, and tend to align my understanding of "Christianity" with an Independent Baptist Church. We attend, but are not members, simply because they have a small part of their constitution that I don't think should be a "requirement" for membership (total abstinence from alcohol, if you are curious). But the preaching is "dead on" Scripturally correct. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am basically non-denominational. I have attended a Baptist church for most of my life, but have been in an Assembly of God, as well as Calvary Chapel, before. When the Bible refers to the church, it isnt talking about a particular denomination. It is the Christian church.

Unfortunately, the church has abdicated much of its functions to the secular society, to its detriment and to the detriment of believers.

Dr. Tony Evans has a great series on just this fact, if you ever listen to him. You can order his tape series on the Carnal Christian, as well as on marriage and divorce. He is based out of dallas, TX. But, like I said, it is up to us to hold our churches and pastors accountable.

In fact, I was the first marriage the church I attend had done like this in anyone's memory. Why? Because I went before the pastors and deacons and spelled out what Scripture said here, just like above. And in the end, the pastors and deacons were in agreement that they were actually not taking care of areas mandated to them.

Once they decided to get with it, then I laid myself on the decision of the church in regards to my marriage and what to do. The elders and pastors prayed about it, took the information provided by me and witnesses...and then made the decision that I am released from my covenant...that my wife would be treated as a tax gatherer or heathen.

And Scripture states that God recognizes that decision made by the church in His name...and binds it in Heaven. Making it true and just.

I hope that helps. If I missed antyhing here, please let me know.

In His arms.

Trying...

Thanks. But it has only been thru His strength and others who have come alongside and helped me. If I can do the same for others, I am glad!

In His arms.

<small>[ January 06, 2005, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

MM, thanks for the information. Sorry about the confusion about your wife's status as a believer.

A good discussion that merits more time. I'm probably going to be forced to postpone responding much until some time next week though, since I have my impending trip and not much time left for an indepth discussion. But feel free to post away and I'll get caught up when I return from "frozen human popsicle" land.

But let me give you something to chew on in the meantime, because you've obviously thought a great deal about the subject.

The "writ" in the OT was not by a church, it was the prerogative of the husband. That's why Jesus made it clear that the only "justified" divorce in God's eye is for "marital unfaithfulness."

There was NO need for divorce due to adultery in the OT. The penalty was physical death of the adulterers, thus ending the marriage and "freeing" the betrayed spouse to remarry.
In the NT, the death penalty for adultery was removed as we moved into the Age of Grace and left the Age of the Law behind.

I believe that you are "stretching" the Matthew passage to say more that it actually does. But that discussion is one that may well have to wait until I have more time.

The "unevenly yoked" marriage you referred to is NOT a "backslidden" Christian marriage. It is a marriage that BEGAN between a Christian and a nonbeliever(in direct opposition to God's command) with the unbelieving spouse continuing in their rejection of Christ. It does not apply to a Christian marriage.

With respect to the(church or individual) treating of someone "as if" they were a tax collector or heathen, the key thought is "as if." They are NOT in actuality an unbeliever, or if you are so judging them to be, the caution that should be taken is that only God truly knows the heart of an individual. And before you jump all over that one, yes, I know what James had to say about how we will "recognize" a believer by their "works."

Now, here is where we could potentially diverge. I've had this discussion with another member in the past and it's a huge topic. It is the topic of "eternal security." It is based in the concept of "election." It is founded upon the rock of Jesus who stated clearly that "no one can snatch them out of my hand, I will lose none of them, no not one."

I think you can see why I hesistate to say too much right now, but there are those who believe that a true Christian can never lose their salvation and there are those who believe a Christian can lose their salvation. I refer to Paul's writing about IF(as in "if we make the hypothetical argument that someone could lose their salvation) a believer should fall away it would be impossible for them to regain salvation a second time."

If your wife "had" fallen away, i.e., lost her salvation, it would be impossible for her to "saved" a second time and you would have a permanent unbeliever as a spouse and in the congegration as a member of the church. Marrying an unbeliever would require you to violate God's command to NOT marry an unbeliever. If you chose to marry her anyway, you would be sinning against God. But that would also NOT make you an unbeliever anymore than the sin of adultery makes someone an unbeliever.

Since I am obviously of the "camp" that believes in eternal security, your wife could never have "lost" her salvation. Sure, she may have been behaving "as an infidel," the same as any Christian who gives into sin, but she never ceased being a born-again bride of Christ. Christ did NOT divorce her, though He as the "bridegroom" of an adulteress certainly had the "right." No, He sought to bring her back into the "sheep pen," as He does with all of us when we stray into sin.

Why DOES God allow divorce in the case of adultery? Because the death penalty no longer applies and because forgiveness is very hard due to our own "sin nature." It is for the believer's protection, not as a punishment for the offender. Remember, God hates divorce, but He allows it for much the same reason as He allowed divorce in the Old Testament, because of the "hardness of our hearts." As hard as forgiving adultery is for us...it gives us a tiny glimpse of how hard sin against God is for God to "deal with." Yet He forgives us and gave us Christ "while we were yet sinners." Instead of divorcing us, Christ died for His bride.

That is what brings me to a greater understanding of the phrase; "from whom much has been forgiven, much is expected."

The idea of "consequences" is one that we have to be very careful with. If you are arguing that that the "consequence" in question is that her actions made a "spiritual divorce" mandatory, then it is illogical to assume that there can simultaneously be a "legal marriage." God did NOT say that there is "spiritual death" for a born-again believer. In fact, there WILL be believers in heaven who receive no rewards to speak of, but they WILL gain entrance into heaven because of Christ, and not because of what they did or did not do on earth.

Lest anyone get too far afield with that statement, it is why we are warned to examine ourselves to make sure that our faith is true. Christ spoke to this in the Parable of the Soils (Sower). There are those who may "think" that they are Christians, but they really are not. An example would be those who go to church and claim to be a Christian, but who have never really accepted Christ as their personal Lord and Savior and refuse to surrender "their" lives, choices, selfish desires, etc., to God. Those folks think the mere "appelation" of the title "Christian" gives them some sort of "get out of Hell free Monopoly type card." "Fire insurance," if you will. Christ performs the dual role of Savior and Lord. We, especially we Americans, often struggle with the idea that "anyone" has the "right" to tell us what to do and we have no recourse but to obey. But that is precisely what Christ is. He IS our sovereign Lord, and we are His to command as He sees fit, bought and paid for with His own blood. That's a hard concept for a lot of us Americans to accept (since we like "majority rule" and the preeminance of the individual.

I happen to also believe that if someone claims to be a Christian, but leads an unrepentant, adulterous life, it is unlikely that they ever were a true Christian because God is quite clear that unrepentant adulterers will NOT be in heaven.
That's not judging, that simply taking God at His word.

Many topics, MM. Not enough time now, but hopefully enough there to give you some things to comment on while I'm away.

God bless.