</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Trix:
<strong> Mindsink,

You sound like a moral relativist.

You said both your families are 'religious'? Do you have any 'religious' beliefs yourself? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope.

For the record, I do "believe" your post is real. Also for the record, I find it "unbelieveable" your non-chalant attitude.

I read your responses to noodles questions and they amaze me.

Maybe I'm not in a position to say boo about anything, but until you understand the pain of an affair--YOU and only YOU have and ARE causing, will we all hear that popping noise from you seeing the light of day again.

I can understand it must be VERY difficult for you and your BETRAYED wife in the working situation you have. You have mnade that more difficult by your actions, rather than discussing this with her.

I again ask, what do you want? Do you want to stay married or not?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LINY:
<strong> For the record, I do "believe" your post is real. Also for the record, I find it "unbelieveable" your non-chalant attitude.

I read your responses to noodles questions and they amaze me.

Maybe I'm not in a position to say boo about anything, but until you understand the pain of an affair--YOU and only YOU have and ARE causing, will we all hear that popping noise from you seeing the light of day again.

I can understand it must be VERY difficult for you and your BETRAYED wife in the working situation you have. You have mnade that more difficult by your actions, rather than discussing this with her.

I again ask, what do you want? Do you want to stay married or not? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes I do want to stay married.

I don't see how I made this more difficult by not discussing it with her. I mean if I were to express the truth to her, what would I accomplish? "Oh honey, I really love you and want to stay married to you and raise a family...BUT...I have these natural urges to have casual sex with other women too." Sorry, that won't fly.

I'm not being nonchalant about anything. I'm simply expressing how I really feel to this forum and hope to get some honest feedback.

I feel so sorry for your wife!!!! I hear NO remorse from you whatsoever!!!!! Do you not see what you are doing????

I feel so sorry for your wife!!!! I hear NO remorse from you whatsoever!!!!! Do you not see what you are doing????

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mindsink:
<strong> 6.) Somehow I rationalized inside my mind that having sex with a prostitute is not cheating. I viewed it along the same lines as masturbating to pornography. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're out of your mind and trying to rationalize your actions.

I've masturbated to Playboy, Hustler, etc... but in NO way do I consider that cheating on my wife. I've told my wife the truth. However, having actual contact with another woman both emotionally and physically is NOT even close to what you claim. I could care less if my wife masturbated to whatever mens magazines are out there, as long as it stays with her in our private bedroom and NO contact or thoughts about someone she knows personally. Movie stars, rock idol, etc... I could care less about.

If you don't care about your wifes Emotional or Physical well being then tell you you are selfish, ignorant, and a PIG and give her a Divorce that she deserves. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mindsink:
<strong> noodle...here are the answers to your questions:

1.) I think it's little more than a religious permission slip to have "sex". I did it because my whole family is religious and so is hers. I also perceive it as something that must be done when you're in a long-term relationship in order to meld into social norms.

How does your wife view it? Will the fact that you have now broken your vows [read..promises] to her be significant?

2.) I love my wife. I'd love her the same whether or not we're married.

When you say that you *love* her..what does that mean? Do you feel affection? Loyalty? Lust?.....?

3.) I never really had an opinion of them before. But now, it's kind of like a day-spa for men, with a bonus.

Sir, rationalizations do not become us. You are well aware that the *bonus* is what separates a spa from a whorehouse. That is precisely why you chose it..because you had already convinced yourself that sex with a prostitute was *only* masturbating and using a person who doesn't *count* as such as a tool.

4.) She'd leave me in a second. Period.

This is a troubling statement. I know..that I am focussing on a different part of the equation than you would like..but humor me..I am getting to your dilema shortly.

The reason that this is troubling..is that it indicates to me..that you knew with a great deal of certainty that what you were considerring doing was an absolute deal breaker. That it would be the end of your marriage, but you chose to do it anyway. There are only two ways this can be interpreted..either you WANT to end the marriage..or you intended to deceive her with a great deal of forethought, intent, and malice.

It is one thing to make an independant decision that you are aware would end your marriage..quite another to remove the same right from another adult.

Do you play chess? You have made your wife your pawn. It is the height of disrespect. By this action, you effectively declare that she is not your equal. You have taken from her the freedom of exacting her own will by lying to her. You are controlling her like a puppetmaster. Do you believe that it is acceptable for one adult [even one who supposedly did not love his or her spouse..far less one who claims that they do] to hold all of the cards and keys in the life of another? Does this sound like respect to you? Does it fit into your worldview of what is and is not ethical treatment? Would you tolerate this treatment from another?

5.) Depends on what it is, but in general, they affect every choice I make.

How did it affect this choice?

6.) I'm not sure I understand the question. I have my own values of what is/isn't ethical or moral. Somehow I rationalized inside my mind that having sex with a prostitute is not cheating. I viewed it along the same lines as masturbating to pornography. However, I 'think' I'm developing feelings for this girl, and that makes me feel really guilty. That's what I consider cheating. It's the mental part. That's why I want to do something about it. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course you are developing feelings for this girl. You are having sex with her. Sex is a very bonding act. A very intimate act. Not to be dismissed..is the fact that in essence..you went to the *girl* store and picked her out based solely on her physical appeal. And somehow you are suprised that you are quite attracted to her. There is more though. If you care to educate yourself with regard to the natural progression of relationships..you will be suprised by just how formulaic your reaction to this woman is. The initial *lust* stage is incredibly intense..that's where you are now. Your *attachment love* [four plus years] actually CAN not compete with the intensity. This is where your confusion is coming from. You wonder why your feelings for this girl are so STRONG and why your feelings for your wife aren't STRONGER since your love for her should be deeper and more developed. Now you have your answer.

You had hoped to objectify her to the point that she was little more than an instrument for your pleasure..but it failed. This is actually a good sign to me..because..if you are capable of reducing another human being to that extent, you are demonstrating behavior that is not just a little bit psychopathic [although treating your wife as an object and not an individual is still a worrisome check mark in the questionable mental health category]. Other people are ALL real people. They are ALL real girls..with history and flaws and strengths and lives outside of the acts they perform for money. Surely you didn't think they just get folded up and set in the closet at the end of the day?

Your wife is also a real person, who does not only exist within her relationship to you, and as such..is entitled to AT LEAST as much consideration, wouldn't you say?

You seem an intelligent man, I dare say that you already know that only two viable options lay before you.

1 Confess all to your wife and throw yourself on her mercy.

or

2 Leave your wife and have a go of it with "Annie".

Let's wipe away the delusions and rationalizations and take a cold hard look at reality.

You have made a choice that your wife did NOT get a vote in.

If you have a shred of integrity or respect for your wife, you will have to allow her the same freedom. To make a choice in which YOU do not get a vote.

Quid Pro Quo

I am not going to waste my time and yours by trying to convince you to remain in your marriage. That is your decision. I am merely insisting that if you wish to dialogue with *me* on the matter, we are going to address it as rational functional adults and not kid ourselves with fairy tales.

Thank you for taking the time to give a reasonable amount of effort to the questions I have asked you. If you wish to converse further, I am happy to oblige with the aforementioned stipulations of course.

Noodle

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TreeReich:
<strong> I feel so sorry for your wife!!!! I hear NO remorse from you whatsoever!!!!! Do you not see what you are doing???? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No remorse? I feel guilty for beginning to have more than just a physical attraction to this girl.

I'm being objective about this and trying to get some real objective feedback on my situation, not emotional outbursts. I don't need your expression of disapproval to my actions. I already know what I did was wrong.

Noodle, first and foremost, thanks for your response. It's BY FAR the most helpful and informative.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by noodle:
<strong>
How does your wife view it? Will the fact that you have now broken your vows [read..promises] to her be significant?</strong>

To be honest, I'm not sure. Of course it will be significant to her.
<strong>
When you say that you *love* her..what does that mean? Do you feel affection? Loyalty? Lust?.....?</strong>

I feel affection, friendship, loyalty, and admiration.

<strong>
This is a troubling statement. I know..that I am focussing on a different part of the equation than you would like..but humor me..I am getting to your dilema shortly.

The reason that this is troubling..is that it indicates to me..that you knew with a great deal of certainty that what you were considerring doing was an absolute deal breaker. That it would be the end of your marriage, but you chose to do it anyway. There are only two ways this can be interpreted..either you WANT to end the marriage..or you intended to deceive her with a great deal of forethought, intent, and malice. </strong>

It would have to be the latter.

<strong>
It is one thing to make an independant decision that you are aware would end your marriage..quite another to remove the same right from another adult.

Do you play chess? You have made your wife your pawn. It is the height of disrespect. By this action, you effectively declare that she is not your equal. You have taken from her the freedom of exacting her own will by lying to her. You are controlling her like a puppetmaster. Do you believe that it is acceptable for one adult [even one who supposedly did not love his or her spouse..far less one who claims that they do] to hold all of the cards and keys in the life of another? Does this sound like respect to you? Does it fit into your worldview of what is and is not ethical treatment? Would you tolerate this treatment from another? </strong>

Maybe I'm confused as to the definition of "respect", but I respect my wife 100%. When I was a kid, I respected my parents 100%. Did I keep secrets from them? Yes. Did I do things behind their backs that I KNEW they would disapprove of? Yes. I don't feel that it shows disrespect. Perhaps it shows that I'm selfish and deceptive.

<strong>Of course you are developing feelings for this girl. You are having sex with her. Sex is a very bonding act. A very intimate act. Not to be dismissed..is the fact that in essence..you went to the *girl* store and picked her out based solely on her physical appeal. And somehow you are suprised that you are quite attracted to her. There is more though. If you care to educate yourself with regard to the natural progression of relationships..you will be suprised by just how formulaic your reaction to this woman is. The initial *lust* stage is incredibly intense..that's where you are now. Your *attachment love* [four plus years] actually CAN not compete with the intensity. This is where your confusion is coming from. You wonder why your feelings for this girl are so STRONG and why your feelings for your wife aren't STRONGER since your love for her should be deeper and more developed. Now you have your answer.</strong>

YES!!! You hit the nail right on the head!!! So I guess my question is: How does someone be in deep "attachment love", and still be able to satisfy their craving for the "lust stage"?

<strong>
You had hoped to objectify her to the point that she was little more than an instrument for your pleasure..but it failed. This is actually a good sign to me..because..if you are capable of reducing another human being to that extent, you are demonstrating behavior that is not just a little bit psychopathic [although treating your wife as an object and not an individual is still a worrisome check mark in the questionable mental health category]. Other people are ALL real people. They are ALL real girls..with history and flaws and strengths and lives outside of the acts they perform for money. Surely you didn't think they just get folded up and set in the closet at the end of the day?</strong>

No, of course I didn't. I viewed it as a service. You go get a haircut. You pay someone. They perform a service on you. You go to a massage parlor. You pay. And they perform a service on you (or let you perform a service on them).

<strong>
Your wife is also a real person, who does not only exist within her relationship to you, and as such..is entitled to AT LEAST as much consideration, wouldn't you say?

You seem an intelligent man, I dare say that you already know that only two viable options lay before you.

1 Confess all to your wife and throw yourself on her mercy.

or

2 Leave your wife and have a go of it with "Annie".</strong>

How about option #3: Block this out of my mind (maybe go to a hypnotherapist?) and pretend like it never happened, and go about my life.

<strong>
Let's wipe away the delusions and rationalizations and take a cold hard look at reality.

You have made a choice that your wife did NOT get a vote in.

If you have a shred of integrity or respect for your wife, you will have to allow her the same freedom. To make a choice in which YOU do not get a vote.</strong>

It sounds nice and neat the way you categorize, but It's not that simple. You can't just reduce these things to "choices" and "votes".

<strong>
I am not going to waste my time and yours by trying to convince you to remain in your marriage. That is your decision. I am merely insisting that if you wish to dialogue with *me* on the matter, we are going to address it as rational functional adults and not kid ourselves with fairy tales.</strong>

Yes. I'd appreciate that.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

mindsink, someone will say it better than me..and that someone will probably be noodle.

You say you respect your wife, but you don't. You don't want to tell her because you're afraid she will leave you. You are taking that choice away from her. You are witholding information from her that affects her DEEPLY and information that she needs in order to evaluate her life correctly and make the choices that are right for HER. Can you tell me how this shows respect?

What every human craves is to be loved for who and what they are. You are presenting a false face to your wife. You're trying to make her believe she is married to something other than what she really *is* married to.

mindsink,

seems easy to me.

You messed up, big time.

Now is you're chance to prove yourself.

Any man can romance a differant woman each night!
It takes a real man to romance the same woman every night for the rest of his life.

So decide who you are, are you in a M or not. If you are start to deal with it now. If you want to live a life full of casual contact with OW, get out of the M you are in.

Stop thinking only about you. Think how you're actions affect others as well. Remember it takes two, that can be you and you're W, or you and a string of OW.

What do you want?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I already know what I did was wrong. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well now, that's a start.

I agree with Noodle. You owe your wife honesty...the truth.

In order to move forward with a possibility of a deeper, more intimate marriage you have to start with radical honesty. You shouldn't automatically assume that it will be a deal breaker for your wife. Many people who are here trying to restore their marriages thought the same thing: that adultery would be a deal breaker.

You really should look inside yourself and examine your morals and ethics. I can't see how your current modus operandi will help you have a good marriage or life for that matter.

You may want to read the concepts on the main parts of this website. If you choose to confess to your wife you may want to have a plan for recovery. You can buy the Dr. W. Harley's book, "Surviving an Affair".

Do you, at least, believe in the golden rule? Would you want honesty from your wife? Maybe you just believe that what she doesn't know won't hurt her and the same for you. I don't think you can have a very fullfilling marriage on that basis.

If you'd like a more exciting sex life with your wife your current choices won't help you.

cerri posted this not too long ago...maybe it would be useful to you...at least intellectually?


There are three states of what we call romantic love in our society. They are all designed to keep the human race alive and genetically healthy on the planet. They can occur simultaneously, one can lead to another, or they can happen completely independently. With the exception of one (which I'll talk about in a sec) they can be felt for more than one person at a time.

These three states create emotional feelings that are driven by the chemicals that occur in the brain. Those chemicals make us feel something towards the person who triggered them - and those feelings are what we call love.

The first is lust - this is the drive that makes us make babies. This keeps the human race going. I think we all get what this one is.

The second is romantic love - the feeling that is characterized by the need to be with someone or talk to them all the time. It is an obsessive state - when we can't stop thinking about the other person. This is the state that can only be felt for one person at a time. *think back to the February you were with Bree. Note that while you may always have had doubts, this is about the time you decided that things could not be fixed. I understand you believe there is no correlation…but this is just something to chew on.

Romantic love lasts for about 3 years (without intervention). Its purpose is to keep the makers of the babies together during the pregnancy and the early childhood years so that they young are not eaten by marauding tigers. *note that your affair with Bree started about 2.5 years after we got married…at a time when that intense feeling of love might have been changing for you. And it’s not like your feelings from Bree stopped from the moment things ended. In fact I suspect there is still something there

The third stage is attachment. This is the deep contentment, warm, connected, feelings we have for each other. This stage lasts for 20+ years and is designed to keep parents together through the late childhood and teenage years - (when we wish they had been eaten by tigers... ) to provide for the offspring until they can take care of themselves. *That feeling of attachment is what I have for you. It is why I feel so strongly about things. Because of the way things happened, you never got to that stage.

*******What happens in an affair is that the romantic drive is triggered and the feelings are so intense that they overwhelm and outweigh the feelings of attachment. This is why people having affairs almost without fail say, "I love you, but I'm not in love with you..." They are comparing the intensity of the chemically driven obsession with the warm and loving attachment they have for their mate.*******

But attachment is the reason they can't simply walk away from the marriage. Attachment - as its name implies - goes very deep. Lust we can destroy - we all know that ! Romantic passion - ditto . But attachment - that's another thing entirely. Attachment is forever.

That's why old lovers pose the greatest danger to a marriage and why it is so crucial that affair partners permanently end all contact. Attachment will keep open a pathway to lust and romantic love and be a threat to the marriage.

How to get over a lover? End all contact. Let the chemicals clear out of the brain. And then replace them with chemistry triggered by someone else - hopefully a spouse.

The other thing to consider is that an affair is new and exciting. We can't fully recreate that novelty with our mate. But we can do things to trigger the same types of brain chemistry and therefore those feelings - if we're willing to do the work.

Romantic love - the obsessive-can't-think-can't-work feeling is not possible to sustain 24/7 long term. It's too metabolically expensive. We can trigger it in bursts and we can be deeply in love and fulfilled with feelings of attachment.

BTW, you're OW is a pro, a hooker, she may love part of you, and that part would be the wallet you have.

Not much of an R in that kind of love.

You're W loves you for much more than that.

Does you're OW still love you when you are broke and need a shoulder to cry on?

Sorry if someone's already said this, but:

"Believe me folks, we're not talking about just any prostitute here that you see in the movies. This is a real genuine girl that has a future if she wants it."

You mean like Julia Roberts, for example?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />


"Love is really deep... ...whereas sex is only a matter of inches."
-Woody Allen, "Bullets Over Broadway"

-ol' 2long

<small>[ January 07, 2005, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not going to waste my time and yours by trying to convince you to remain in your marriage. That is your decision. I am merely insisting that if you wish to dialogue with *me* on the matter, we are going to address it as rational functional adults and not kid ourselves with fairy tales.

Yes. I'd appreciate that.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Noodle's a big girl and doesn't need defense from me ... BUT ... with that one comment, "I'd appreciate [you not wasting my time]" is almost as disrespectful what you've done to your wife.

But then again, you have it in your mind what you have done and continue to do, there's nothing wrong with it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't see how I made this more difficult by not discussing it with her. I mean if I were to express the truth to her, what would I accomplish? "Oh honey, I really love you and want to stay married to you and raise a family...BUT...I have these natural urges to have casual sex with other women too." Sorry, that won't fly.

I'm not being nonchalant about anything. I'm simply expressing how I really feel to this forum and hope to get some honest feedback.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right now, you don't want to hear the truth--you want that deceptive (your words) mindsink to come out and pretend like nothing ever happened (again, your words.) Your missing the point here. IT DID!!!!!! You want to sweep it under the rug? Best wishes in your fairy tale, but don't bother asking for opinions then not only ignore it, but insult at the same time! My goodness, man, get a grip!

Are you sure the answer to my question was that you wanted to stay in the marriage? If so, honesty, brother. Cause either way you "choose", if there's no honesty there, you'll be living in the same fairy tale, with the same ending, just with different women.

Mindsink,

There are some very raw emotions running in this thread. Please come to SYMCINC.com and email for permission to enter the reclamation board. I want to personally talk to you regarding your situation. copy and paste your story there.

Sleepless

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by SleeplessInSF:
<strong> Mindsink,

There are some very raw emotions running in this thread. Please come to SYMCINC.com and email for permission to enter the reclamation board. I want to personally talk to you regarding your situation. copy and paste your story there.

Sleepless </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you could just discuss with me here in this thread, that'd be great. I think this thread has matured to a point, and I really don't feel like going through another posting onslaught.

Liny, you misunderstood the context of my statement. I was saying that I would appreciate discussing this in a rational adult manner, which SOME of you have failed to do.

Sorry mindsink, I won't post it here. I can PROMISE you won't endure another thread like this. But it's up to you. Another alternative is if you have yahoo messenger we can chat a bit. I have much to offer you trust me.